Lessons to learn from S2U

[pgagoober]

So given all we currently know about S2U and the bugs that remain, is there anything we can do as a community to encourage a better experience in the future?

I know that SMS are actively pursuing a publisher-free dev model. Is that where we need to go or is there something else we can do as a community to help future game development?

I'm thinking about something like a GTPlanet beta test group, under NDA of course that could provide pre-release feedback to developers, helping them to overcome the inherent test resource shortage involved in these games.

Is this unrealistic or is it feasible ?

 

[boxox]

From my recollection of what people have described, EA testing can be somewhat paranoid. To the point where even some beta versions distributed to testers don't really resemble the game that much, and even game content is split up amongst different testing groups with different builds (similar to segmented demo style builds). Point being, from what I've heard, they don't even trust their internal test group that much, let alone the idea of outsourcing it to some group of randoms.

ed - as for WMD, SMS have said 5 euro gets you a beta and a beta forum account. Pretty sure that's about all you really need, make a GT group if you like

 

[Kazanski]

what is WMD?

 

[FLX1981]

Thats the community-based sim racer thats gonna be Slightly Mads new project.

 

[HKS racer]

From my recollection of what people have described, EA testing can be somewhat paranoid. To the point where even some beta versions distributed to testers don't really resemble the game that much, and even game content is split up amongst different testing groups with different builds (similar to segmented demo style builds). Point being, from what I've heard, they don't even trust their internal test group that much, let alone the idea of outsourcing it to some group of randoms.

To summarize we can just say EA is the most moronic pubblisher of the world and their bossy attitude with beta testing and bug fixing can be self-destructive expecially with racing games.

WMD? Seems like SMS get frustrated by those fools and wonna try to run by their own, I can't blame them. Do you have other infos about this project?

 

[boxox]

SMS's Community-Funded Race Sim.

WMD .. don't know if it has ever actually been defined - but as far as I know that's the portal they're hanging development from. We Make Dough?

 

[InSight]

As a brilliant example of how a complex game gets debugged, look at the ED and their DCS A-10 sim/game. Customers pre-purchased beta version four months prior to digital release and the game went through patching for three more months after the digital release, so the retail and steam release was/is now 99% bug-free. And there's still one patch planned.

In this half-year time, devs looked at EVERY bug report and issue on their forums and worked with the customers, to fix the game. The customer support is one of the best in the gaming business.

THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE!

Compare their services to a fascist EA corporation and their "support". Well, you can't, there's just no comparison.

This is how SMS should go, i just hope it's not too late to clear their name, they'll have to do some serious PR stuff besides debugging, to fix their reputation.

 

[GumShoe]

I think thanks to SMS's involvement with the community it's given us a good insight into what happens behind the curtains and the difficulties dev's can face.

It looks like more dev studios are starting to take the publisher free route, and it's all the better for us because we are involved early in the process and more likely to get the game we want. And even though the huge invested funds aren't there initially, the community generally doesn't mind the game taking longer to be finished because they're involved in making it what they want.

I'm also following another game called Grim Dawn (ex Titan Quest devs) which has a similar approach, three levels of investment up to about $50, middle level gets you access to the beta, top level gets you access to the alpha, and the devs are consistenly involved on the forums. They even just recently showed off the title screen, then after input and discussion from the community altered it a number of times until they got a great result. Awesome to have that direct involvement and it benefits both sides

I can't wait to see what comes from the WMD Portal and I really hope it succeeds so more devs can move away from the big publishers.

 

[HKS racer]

SMS's Community-Funded Race Sim.

WMD .. don't know if it has ever actually been defined - but as far as I know that's the portal they're hanging development from. We Make Dough?

We make dough you get the glory lol.
Anyway it's a very interesting project and I would much prefer Shift 3 developed in this way than another crappy EA game. But they have to keep in mind the goal of their project or they'll get lost with all users request. This is the main problem, everybody will request something different and could be disapointed if they wont add what they are asking for.. Imho they could go for a sort of rFactor alternative, a mod compatible racing game.. let' see what's going to happen..

 

[boxox]

You should check some of the other threads on the nogrip s2u forum, Ian has been pretty chatty about what they perceive the next release of their racing game project to be. Cliff notes so far:

Working name of the first iteration of the next project is "Torque".

Aimed as free-to-play (no ongoing subscription fees), apparently with a substatial amount of free content.

Microtransaction supported premium content ($2 a car or so).

Dedicated servers/client-server multiplayer.

 

[HKS racer]

You should check some of the other threads on the nogrip s2u forum, Ian has been pretty chatty about what they perceive the next release of their racing game project to be. Cliff notes so far:

Working name of the first iteration of the next project is "Torque".

Aimed as free-to-play (no ongoing subscription fees), apparently with a substatial amount of free content.

Microtransaction supported premium content ($2 a car or so).

Dedicated servers/client-server multiplayer.

Yep I'm reading a couple of threads now, they started this project in April and I saw lot of ideas throwing in. They are talking about DX11 so I suppose it will be mainly a PC sim with insane graphic which is definitely interesting but I think I'll wait for a while before to buy a new pc, run ultra detailed models with DX11 at 60fps wont be an easy task even for a nowdays pc gaming.

Edit they are talking about to downport for current gen, and bring it to next gen http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1394760&postcount=684

 

[Ian Bell]

We plan full DX9 support also HKS. The only real downside will be the trees due to the lack of alpha sorting but we're working around that now.

 

[HKS racer]

We plan full DX9 support also HKS. The only real downside will be the trees due to the lack of alpha sorting but we're working around that now.

That's what I call a "quick answer" ! I wish Kazunori Yamuchi to be as fast as you LOL
I discovered your project today so I still trying to get some more info about it, do you have a site or forum or it's everything at nogrip?

 

[Ian Bell]

That's what I call a "quick answer" ! I wish Kazunori Yamuchi to be as fast as you LOL
I discovered your project today so I still trying to get some more info about it, do you have a site or forum or it's everything at nogrip?

We'll be launching WMDPortal in the next few weeks as we work towards the first investor build. Investment starting at 5 dollars for a build every week. The intention being that all investors make a good profit.

 

[Vaxxtx]

We'll be launching WMDPortal in the next few weeks as we work towards the first investor build. Investment starting at 5 dollars for a build every week. The intention being that all investors make a good profit.

Making a post here to get sticked could help get more console people interested.

 

[HKS racer]

Thanks for the infos, will be nice if you plan to open a topic here at gtplanet once your portal will be ready to involve some console crowd. This could be a big punch in the face to all these bossy pubblishers around the world, and trust me PS3 users are really looking forward to new good racing games about GT cars. We only have the long awaited and unfinished GT5 (Kaz stated he wanted another 2 years to finish it) Shift 2 pubblished by EA trolls, Grid by Codemasters (which isn't a sim and the graphics is quite old now) and some other minor titles. Nothing compared to the choice available on PC's. So I'm looking forward to hear some news and good luck with your project!

Making a post here to get sticked could help get more console people interested.

LOL I write slowly!

 

[Animal_Mother]

As the title of the thread indicates, after 2 Shift games this is what i have learned. 1. SMS puts out games with bugs that ruin what could be titles that are the best in their class. 2. EA's customer support is the most pathetic, stinking pile of manure is the industry. Thank God I didn't spend $20 on that DLC. I will not be giving any more money to either of these companies. Lesson learned.

 

[Ian Bell]

As the title of the thread indicates, after 2 Shift games this is what i have learned. 1. SMS puts out games with bugs that ruin what could be titles that are the best in their class. 2. EA's customer support is the most pathetic, stinking pile of manure is the industry. Thank God I didn't spend $20 on that DLC. I will not be giving any more money to either of these companies. Lesson learned.

We aren't involved in the QA of the games. That's one of the main tasks of the publisher, alongside marketing and funding.

 

[Animal_Mother]

We aren't involved in the QA of the games. That's one of the main tasks of the publisher, alongside marketing and funding.

That's unfortunate. Perhaps with the next game you develop, you can involve yourselves contractually into the QA process. After this debacle, I would say that some in house QA would be mandatory to prevent your company's name from being sullied any further. If I ever consider purchasing another SMS product, it will definitely not be on day one. I will have to wait and watch boards like this one to make absolutely sure that the game has been released in full, working order and that it is being supported adequately post-release. Thank you, however, for your time in responding to our concerns. It's a hell of a lot more than we'll ever see from those douchebags at EA.

 

[Tireseas]

Indeed. Thank you Mr. Bell for at least communicating with the community on this. I also wish you the best of luck with the community project, a lot of us are looking forward to seeing what you guys can do without the handcuffs EA imposes

 

[InSight]

That's unfortunate. Perhaps with the next game you develop, you can involve yourselves contractually into the QA process. After this debacle, I would say that some in house QA would be mandatory to prevent your company's name from being sullied any further. If I ever consider purchasing another SMS product, it will definitely not be on day one. I will have to wait and watch boards like this one to make absolutely sure that the game has been released in full, working order and that it is being supported adequately post-release. Thank you, however, for your time in responding to our concerns. It's a hell of a lot more than we'll ever see from those douchebags at EA.

Checking the boards and official support is the best indicator which game is worth the money. Customer support is the most important thing in EVERY company. Just don't give up on SMS altogether.

 

[sandboxgod]

Man you dont even need QA to see some of these bugs. Like this magnetic, sticky car collision.... It causes me no end of frustration. sometimes when I play GT5 I just breathe out in relief when I can nicely rub against another car and not become "Stuck" and go off track with it

Why did SMS think this was a good idea? At least with the next product the community will have direct involvement. So people will catch stuff like this ASAP

This game coulda been off da hook for all times so easy if they fixed little stuff like this

 

[sandboxgod]

You should check some of the other threads on the nogrip s2u forum, Ian has been pretty chatty about what they perceive the next release of their racing game project to be. Cliff notes so far:

Working name of the first iteration of the next project is "Torque".

Aimed as free-to-play (no ongoing subscription fees), apparently with a substatial amount of free content.

Microtransaction supported premium content ($2 a car or so).

Dedicated servers/client-server multiplayer.

And hopefully it will be moddable like rFactor (HKSracer already mentioned). Only other downside to S2U, very unfriendly to mods.

[edit] bah, of course it wont be mod friendly going this route