lets get to the bottom of it

[GENERALSAVANT]

Anyone else out there a Zeitgeister? I get excited to talk to people about technological unemployment and the ROOT causes behind what you see happening in the world. Where most people want to blame the person I go for the social distortions that cause abhorrent behavior. Mainly fractional reserve system banking, false notions of debt and structural violence.

Lets keep this friendly and informative, I dislike heavily when conversations delineate into a shouting match...

 

[White & Nerdy]

I agree that many of today's problems, from war to excessive debt to everything else, are either caused by or enabled by fractional-reserve banking.

 

[Azure Flare]

Religion causes many of them as well...

 

[Dotini]

Overpopulation is a root problem. We humans are frantically running around like rats in a maze, seeking money, pleasure and sex, and never seeming to find enough of it. In the meantime, our numbers soar and resources are threatened. We have become too dependent on the system delivering food, water, clothing and shelter to us. One bad disaster and we are instantly helpless victims. Sometimes I think aliens have dropped a stupid bomb on the human race. Those who would destroy us, first make us stupid. Religions fighting amongst each other is a perfect example of human stupidity.

Another root problem is too much technology. No sooner than we adapt to a successful technology, others emerge to rapidly supplant it. Humans are not well adapted to too much change. It's stressful.

But I also agree that the fractional reserve banking system and false notions of debt are the royal road to hell. And there's no going back for a do-over. Not without some sort of revolution.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Religion causes many of them as well...

...should I even bother?

Yes, sometimes religion does cause problems, however most of the time when I see that line it's just a way to start pointless Christian-bashing.

 

[Azuremen]

...should I even bother?

Yes, sometimes religion does cause problems, however most of the time when I see that line it's just a way to start pointless Christian-bashing.

I'm not sure if you've studied much history, modern or ancient, but a great deal of wars and conflicts are the direct result of ideological differences (typically revolving around theology) or using theology to move the masses to supporting such conflicts.

Oh, and there are more religions than Christianity, but I'm not sure you can fathom that.

Another root problem is too much technology. No sooner than we adapt to a successful technology, others emerge to rapidly supplant it. Humans are not well adapted to too much change. It's stressful.

Man, all that modern medicine and ease of access to incredibly amounts of knowledge sure is stressful. Really wish I could go back to simple blood letting and living in ignorance, everything was just way less stressful then, working non-stop just to eat.

 

[Azure Flare]

@White & Nerdy I don't want to do this either, but I'm just simply stating my opinion.

It's not just Christianity, but I'd say its at the top of the list. I mean, what do you think The Crusades was about?

"Convert to Christianity or I will kill you", even though one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not kill".

Religion has caused more people to die than disease or war. Even today, religion halts the advancement of society.

 

[Azuremen]

@White & Nerdy
It's not just Christianity, but I'd say its at the top of the list. I mean, what do you think The Crusades was about?

"Convert to Christianity or I will kill you", even though one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not kill".

The Crusades were perhaps less about religion and more an excuse to generate money and spoils for the Church along with unifying much of Europe for periods of time. Typically, the Catholic Church operated more with economics and power in mind rather than God, but God was the easy means to motivate the masses to action.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I'm not sure if you've studied much history, modern or ancient, but a great deal of wars and conflicts are the direct result of ideological differences (typically revolving around theology) or using theology to move the masses to supporting such conflicts.

Oh, and there are more religions than Christianity, but I'm not sure you can fathom that.

I do know that, it's just that in many cases, when someone says something about problems caused by religion, their actual point is "Hey guys, crusades! Christians are evil! /thread!"

It's not just Christianity, but I'd say its at the top of the list. I mean, what do you think The Crusades was about?

"Convert to Christianity or I will kill you", even though one of the 10 commandments is "thou shall not kill".

Christianity isn't exactly a problem religion anymore. The last Crusade was how many hundreds of years ago now?

Compare that to some another religion that I'm probably not allowed to call out here, but which is still causing trouble (even if only a certain section of it) today.

Azuremen's second post is somewhat closer to the truth - the Catholic church has long been as much of a political entity as it has been a religious one.

 

[Azuremen]

I do know that, it's just that in many cases, when someone says something about problems caused by religion, their actual point is "Hey guys, crusades! Christians are evil! /thread!"

Can you, for once, try not to build straw men for the sake of your own narcissism? Just once?

Christianity isn't exactly a problem religion anymore. The last Crusade was how many hundreds of years ago now?

Right, minus the reproduction rights, marriage rights, hate crimes, political strife, and global problems it still presents.

Compare that to some another religion that I'm probably not allowed to call out here, but which is still causing trouble (even if only a certain section of it) today.

You can say "Islam" and talk about the fact that Muslim extremists are causing a great deal of problems in the Middle East. You could also mention how Christian extremists in the US are still committing hate crimes and preaching the mentality of the KKK.

But oh wait, you don't think Christianity is a problem religion anymore...

Azuremen's second post is somewhat closer to the truth - the Catholic church has long been as much of a political entity as it has been a religious one.

No, it is pretty spot on. Stop trying to undermine my views when you have no clue what you are talking about.

Oh, and good job making this thread about bashing on Christians. Dat self fulfilling prophecy, right?

 

[White & Nerdy]

Can you, for once, try not to build straw men for the sake of your own narcissism? Just once?


Right, minus the abortion,

fixed

marriage rights,

You know the religious argument against gay marriage isn't the only one, right?

hate crimes,

Politically loaded phrase detected! Explanation required.

political strife,

This could mean many things. What, specifically, are you referring to?

and global problems it still presents.

Wow, that's pretty specific!

You can say "Islam" and talk about the fact that Muslim extremists are causing a great deal of problems in the Middle East.

Or right here in the U.S.

You could also mention how Christian extremists in the US are still committing hate crimes

There's that phrase again. Considering that some people will scream "hate crimes" at anyone who speaks one single word to the effect that homosexuality isn't completely fine in every way, I'm going to need that explained.

and preaching the mentality of the KKK.

...seriously?[/quote]

 

[Azuremen]

fixed

Actually, no, you didn't fix it. There is more to the discussion than just abortion, but I suspect that is beyond your narrow perspective.

You know the religious argument against gay marriage isn't the only one, right?

No, not really - the religious argument is the only one that persists. Your horrible attempt to bring up genetics failed massively, but I suspect you never saw that in the Homosexuality thread.

Politically loaded phrase detected! Explanation required.

As "hate crime" is a fairly common term, I'm not surprised you don't understand it. It means a crime that motivated by hatred as a result of differences. Of course, you don't want to acknowledge this as you love the notion of disrespecting people and harassing them because they like things you do not, such as a cartoon.

This could mean many things. What, specifically, are you referring to?

You truly are one of the most ignorant people I've ever encountered. Political strife is broad because, honestly, the repercussions of this idiotic Religious Right impact everything from primary education to international politics.

Wow, that's pretty specific!

Coming from a guy that broadly uses the term "masculine" to effectively discriminate against people, and not too concerned with what you feel is specific enough. Nor do I need to be specific when one has to simply open their eyes to see the array of conflicts resulting from major religions and the ideologies that accompany them

Or right here in the U.S.

Obviously.

There's that phrase again. Considering that some people will scream "hate crimes" at anyone who speaks one single word to the effect that homosexuality isn't completely fine in every way, I'm going to need that explained.

Considering you need everything explained to you, I'm not going to waste my time as you'll just ignore it as some "wishy washy PC liberal yuppie tripe." Assuming you know what half those words mean, any how.

...seriously?

Quite. Apparently, though not surprising, you are ignorant to the many hate groups that continue to practice the ideologies put forth by the KKK.

Open a book sometime, you might, maybe, learn something.

 

[DK]

fixed

I guess you aren't aware of various cases of Christian employers whining about providing contraception in their employees' insurance plans.

 

[XS]

Is the creation and support of a fractional reserve banking system as paramount to the human species as the creation of and belief in religion? If so, all these arguments are moot because until we evolve into another species with a different mental architecture we will always have the problems that come with both systems because we cannot exist as a species without believing in either...

 

[dylansan]

The last Crusade was how many hundreds of years ago now?

According to IMDb, it was only about 25 years ago.

 

[Carlos]

...should I even bother?

Yes, sometimes religion does cause problems, however most of the time when I see that line it's just a way to start pointless Christian-bashing.

Look up the Vatican bank, they have been in the news a lot lately..

All religions are causing problems because there are always people who think they have to convince each other their God is the better one, instead just respecting all and go on with their lives. Or people who kill others 'in name of God', people who use the name God just to get listened to and or get people so far they do things they didn't thought of doing.

But it's in our root not to just respect everyone, it seems.

 

[GENERALSAVANT]

WoW, I got zero notifications people responded to this thread. I'm glad to see people are of the same thought process as I am. I can't even walk outside anymore with out noticing structural violence. And yes for those of you commenting I do agree that religion plays a large role in keeping people to think in only a linear fashion, thus making them potentially more susceptible to the eco-political system that is running everything now.

However I'm really interested in the debt for labor, we HAVE to work jobs argument. Because quite frankly we don't. Also the technological unemployment aspect of our future and the implications is has on out current paradigm.




And this is one of my all time favourite speeches. It's from an Italian author who wrote a book called "robots will steal your job, but that's ok"

 

[GENERALSAVANT]

 

[VolkswagenX]

Anyone else out there a Zeitgeister? I get excited to talk to people about technological unemployment and the ROOT causes behind what you see happening in the world. Where most people want to blame the person I go for the social distortions that cause abhorrent behavior. Mainly fractional reserve system banking, false notions of debt and structural violence.

Lets keep this friendly and informative, I dislike heavily when conversations delineate into a shouting match...

Not really a fan of Peter Joseph. Something just does not seem right with him although I can agree with him on many of the problems we have today. I have watched all of the Zeitgeist films and the only part I really liked was the part about fractional reserve banking. Someone who has made good documentaries on the subject of banking is Bill Still (Money Masters, Jekyll Island and The Secret of Oz). They might be long and boring, but the information is very good.

Overpopulation is a root problem. We humans are frantically running around like rats in a maze, seeking money, pleasure and sex, and never seeming to find enough of it. In the meantime, our numbers soar and resources are threatened. We have become too dependent on the system delivering food, water, clothing and shelter to us. One bad disaster and we are instantly helpless victims. Sometimes I think aliens have dropped a stupid bomb on the human race. Those who would destroy us, first make us stupid. Religions fighting amongst each other is a perfect example of human stupidity.

Another root problem is too much technology. No sooner than we adapt to a successful technology, others emerge to rapidly supplant it. Humans are not well adapted to too much change. It's stressful.

But I also agree that the fractional reserve banking system and false notions of debt are the royal road to hell. And there's no going back for a do-over. Not without some sort of revolution.

I think that corporate greed is a bigger problem then overpopulation and hasty technological advancements. I feel it's big corporations that try to keep certain technolagical advancements at a minimum to maximize profits on current technology. The elictric car springs to mind in this one. It's the goverments of the world that makes it to easy for these big corporations to monopolize everything. People feel that we need a separation of church and state, but what I feel we really need is a separation from "business and state" (got this from Ryan Dawson) . We hear about the free market but I don't really see a free market. I see big corporations buying up all they can and when they screw up they blame the "economy" and get a corporate wellfare check(bailout) from the government, wich is the same as saying; Here is some money, now go and screw up again.

(this is all just my opinion, please be nice )

 

[White & Nerdy]

I guess you aren't aware of various cases of Christian employers whining about providing contraception in their employees' insurance plans.

And now you're crossing into politics.

First, it probably has to do with drugs that can cause abortions anyway.

Second, why should they have to? I seriously am at a loss as to why a policy should be legally required to pay for contraception. It's not the government's business to mandate it. This line of thinking is why ObamaDontCare is cancelling policies and hiking premiums all over the place.

 

[Müle]

It's not the government's business to mandate it.

If you believe that, believe it for all medications, don't just pick and choose because a certain group of them don't fall in line with what you interpret in a 2000 year old book.

 

[White & Nerdy]

That's pretty close to what I think. Letting the government get its hands on the insurance process can only ever end in tears. And it's going to, just watch. It's the same thing that happens with equipment in cars. "Oh, let's just make the interior a little nicer. And then, hey, this gadget might be a good idea. And let's add some steering wheel controls since the touch-screen is so confusing and can't be used on the move anyway. Oh, and the government is mandating the installation of stability control, so let's add that too. Oh, and we're gonna need more fuel economy. A lot more." And on and on it goes. By the end of it, you have the Chevrolet Cruze, which has a tiny engine, weighs way more than it should, and looks incredibly goofy. Nowhere is the option to get a basic, manual-crank-windows interior combined with a hot engine and bass-heavy stereo.

It's the same way with a government-run health insurance system. Gone are the basic plans favored by young people who are unlikely to develop chronic health problems and just need a basic plan in case something goes wrong and they get hurt. Instead, you're shoved into what I call a "Dagwood Sandwich" plan: more and more stuff piled on until it's so big you can't get your mouth around it. And if you don't even want to bother, well too bad: you will bother, or you'll pay a penalty to help prop the system up anyway! The result is, of course, that plans will cost mind-blowing amounts of money, many of them will be cancelled outright, and the system will still collapse spectacularly while the government desperately borrows money to keep it afloat until another "solution" comes along and delays the inevitable slightly. Eventually they'll just say "forget it" and follow the rest of the world into a full-on single-payer system, since that's worked out just fine everywhere else.

I still single the contraceptive mandate out for special derision, though, because, well, how do I say this? Contraceptives are not on the same level of necessity as other medications. I remember Sandra Fluke talking about how she needed three condoms a day. So... we should all have to pay for that because... why? I seriously do not get why anyone would consider that the responsibilty of a health plan, let alone think it should be mandatory for all health plans.

 

[DK]

And now you're crossing into politics.

First, it probably has to do with drugs that can cause abortions anyway.

Second, why should they have to? I seriously am at a loss as to why a policy should be legally required to pay for contraception. It's not the government's business to mandate it. This line of thinking is why ObamaDontCare is cancelling policies and hiking premiums all over the place.

But why should an employer have the right to decide what their employee's insurance covers?

 

[White & Nerdy]

But why should an employer have the right to decide what their employee's insurance covers?

First, why shouldn't they? They're the one's providing it, aren't they? Which leads to my second point, would you really, really rather have the infamously incompetent, bloated, power-hungry, corrupt federal bureaucracy decide instead?

 

[DK]

First, why shouldn't they? They're the one's providing it, aren't they?

But they aren't using it.

How would you like it if your boss was a Jehovah's Witness and decides that your insurance won't cover blood transfusions?

 

[White & Nerdy]

I'm not even using the company insurance, but still, nothing I can do about it. And as I said, contraception isn't on the same level as, say, blood transfusions. The latter saves someone's life. The former just lets someone be promiscuous sans consequences, and I'm sorry but why is that in any way as important what you mentioned?

 

[Azuremen]

Probably because disease and unwanted children will run an insurance company far more money in the long term than a couple of condoms a day.

Just because you can't get laid doesn't mean the rest of us can't. And just because your conservative views likely to label being sexual as promiscuous doesn't mean it should be vilified.

 

[DK]

The fact of the matter is, in the hypothetical situation where a JW employer decides to exclude blood transfusions from your insurance coverage, their religious beliefs are deciding what your insurance covers, just like an employer who doesn't want your insurance to cover contraception.

Dammit, tree'd by Azuremen.

 

[Ibonibo]

Jehowa Brothers or what are they called are against blood transfusion I think.

Honestly, I think Humanity biggest Problems aren't religion or Finance or whatever.
The biggest threat to humanity are humans.

Who directs churches, economics... humans.

Now humans get corrupted by society, but then we come to the question "chicken, egg. Which was first"

Greed and power are the worst things a normal human can be corrupted with.

Banks are just running business as in 2006. Real estate recreates a bubble wich led to the crisis. IWF wants that evry human on the planet gets "taxed" once, to "reduce" the deficits. Secret services that track every human on the planet.

Why? Power ...

I really hope western people will untite on the streets once to stand in for the rights and not swallow what the 1% want.
Because now, wether EU or USA, the Fed politics makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.

I see people work 60 hours a week and have barely enough to eat. One the other side you have managers, who did nothing, risked the companies wealth, responsible for tousands of who lost their jobs. What do they get? A million high bonus!

I am all for capitalism. But this isn't it! This is a scewed version of hyper capitalism

 

[White & Nerdy]

Probably because disease and unwanted children will run an insurance company far more money in the long term than a couple of condoms a day.

Just because you can't get laid doesn't mean the rest of us can't. And just because your conservative views likely to label being sexual as promiscuous doesn't mean it should be vilified.

Then they can cover it, I don't really give a flip as long as they don't do abortion too. My problem is with the feds sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong and saying "every health plan in existence has to have this or it can't be sold". Also note that I never really said anything against contraception. It's just that I'll pay for it myself.