Like Clean Highways? Be Sure to Thank the Nazi Party!

[Kylehnat]

This is an article from the Northwest National Socialist Movement website (which I am NOT linking to for obvious reasons):

SALEM, Ore. - Two green Adopt-A-Highway signs reading "American Nazi Party" have popped up on a rural road a few miles from downtown Salem, and it's got people upset with the county for agreeing to put up the signs and worried about their neighborhood.

"I know we live in a free world. But that's not part of freedom, anything to do with the Nazis," said Barbara Hamblin, a 64-year-old who lives in a mobile home park just down the road from one of the signs.

"They had to have been off their rocker," she said.

What do you think?

The two signs were erected by Marion County road crews earlier this week, costing taxpayers $250 each.

County officials said they know people are upset. But free-speech guarantees in the Constitution prevented them from turning down the person who signed the American Nazi Party up with the local Adopt-A-Highway program.

"Our hands are pretty much tied from a legal standpoint," said Marion County Commissioner Patti Milne. "This has been very difficult, but the bottom line is they are entitled to participate."

"We can't pick and choose what parts of the constitution to follow," said Milne, a former Republican state legislator.

Marion County put up the signs after a person named C. Marchand applied for a permit under which the American Nazi Party agreed to help clean up the road.

A person answering the phone at the number given on the permit application said "maybe" when asked if he was Marchand.

He declined to make any further comment, referring inquiries to a Jim Ramm, who has previously been identified in news reports as leader of the Tualatin Valley Skins, a white-supremacist group that has been active in the Willamette Valley. No listing could be found for Ramm.

County officials said they got about a dozen complaints about the signs as of mid-Thursday afternoon, and more were coming in after their existence was broadcast on TV news.

The applicants for the sign may have been borrowing an idea from the Ku Klux Klan.

Earlier this month, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that free-speech rights prevent Missouri from barring the Klan from participating in that state's Adopt-A-Highway program.

Out on Salem's Sunnyview Road, someone expressed their views about the two signs by bending one of them in half.

The sign is near a house where Patti Buetler lives, practically in her yard.

Buetler said she had called county officials about the sign. "I don't want to get myself involved in this. All I want is for it to not be in my yard," she said. Buetler may get her wish.

County officials say the vandalized sign will be replaced, but only if the permit applicant pays for a new one.

"If they want to replace it, the Nazi Party will have to pay," said Dan Estes, spokesman for the county commissioners.

He said that is standard policy - the county erects the signs at its expense the first time but charges organizations to replace them if they are vandalized or stolen.

Now, clearly the ANP has every right to adopt a highway, and to be credited with a sign, but this is the greyest of grey areas. First of all, these signs are practically in people's front yards. I know I wouldn't want to be reminded of the Nazi party every time I go out to get my newspaper, and I wouldn't want such a sign to be associated with my house as people drive by. They have a right to free speech, but I have a right not to be offended every time I walk out the door.

Secondly, I think that the ANP only did this to get their name posted in public, rather than to actually do any good. Sort of a giant F-You to everyone in the area.

Lastly, these signs are taxpayer funded (at least initially). Clearly the state would not go around with tax money, putting up Nazi swastikas. How is this any different? It's a state-funded reminder of the Nazi party, and all of the horrible implications that go with it. In my opinion, it's state-approved racism.

What do you think? Should these signs be allowed to go up? Why or why not?

(Final note: these signs were all taken down by vandals, meaning that any subsequent replacement of them would be paid for by the ANP, and not Oregon taxpayers.)

 

[Danoff]

The problem is with the adopt-a-highway program that allows private groups to post get their name on a sign. Rather than try to force SOME groups not to participate in the program (unconstitutaion, highly discriminatory), simply eliminate the adopt-a-highway program, or prevent the names of the organizations from going on the signs at any rate.

I think as long as they're going to have signs like this from some groups, they've got to allow them for all.

 

[ledhed]

The problem is with the adopt-a-highway program that allows private groups to post get their name on a sign. Rather than try to force SOME groups not to participate in the program (unconstitutaion, highly discriminatory), simply eliminate the adopt-a-highway program, or prevent the names of the organizations from going on the signs at any rate.

I think as long as they're going to have signs like this from some groups, they've got to allow them for all.

yup they have a right to put them up...and we have a right to take them down...as long as we dont get caught..

 

[87chevy]

yup they have a right to put them up...and we have a right to take them down...as long as we dont get caught..

As much as I hate Nazis, people in America have the right to think and believe whatever they want, as long as they dont infringe on someone elses rights. That's what makes this Country better than every other nation on earth. And actually I'm kind of glad stuff like that happens(the signs) because people in America do not have the Right to not be offended, contrary to popular belief nowadays.

 

[dbartucci]

I agree with danoff on this one. If some organization wants to contribute money towards a goverment program and as a result of that contribution they are recognized with the sign how can you say one group should get a sign and another not get it?

 

[guska]

The organisations have to pay for the new ones? Hell, here in Australia, tax money puts them back up, so I see it as my right to nick a sign or two here and there, as I paid for the darn thing anyway!

 

[wfooshee]

I agree with danoff on this one. If some organization wants to contribute money towards a goverment program and as a result of that contribution they are recognized with the sign how can you say one group should get a sign and another not get it?

They don't contribute anything except time to clean the roadside, if it actually gets done. I would assume there's a requirement to actually get the work done. . . . The only money they would contribute would be to replace the signs taken down, apparently.

 

[dbartucci]

They don't contribute anything except time to clean the roadside, if it actually gets done. I would assume there's a requirement to actually get the work done. . . . The only money they would contribute would be to replace the signs taken down, apparently.

My bad, I misunderstood the program. I thought they just paid a bit of money which contibuted to the clean-up crews.

The requirement is all litter must be picked up at least once a quarter over the stretch of the adopted road, the reward for volunteering is to be recognized (via the sign) for your contribution to cleaning up litter.

 

[a6m5]

I thought it sounded familiar. I thought they ended up retracting participation.

I've participated in "Adopt A Street" program several times. It is a very nice thing you can do for a community. While it is very nice that local Skinheads want to keep our Oregon highway clean, I must admit that I am bit theatend by it. As an Asian, I'd rather have my car break down in middle of North Portland(think Oregon's Bronx) than the stretch of the Nazi Hwy.

My take is kind of ignorant, but I'm sorry to say that I am not concerned over the right of the American Nazi Party to participate in Adopt-A-Highway program at this time. We used to have a lot of these Neo-Nazi/Skinhead types in Portalnd area during the 80's-90's and they kept trying to bust the colored people's(including my race, Asian) heads with baseball bats. This is unfair though. Sorry!

 

[niky]

As long as it's not my front yard...

But yeah, Constitutional Rights suck when they don't go your way, eh? Seriously, though, they should be rated on it. If they dont keep the highway clean, tear the signs down.

Bet you they never would've gotten those signs up if it were the United American Prostitutes Union...

 

[Pupik]

There was an area of NE Florida that had a highway clean up sign sponsored by the KKK (no, not the German turbocharger manufacturer). There was enough protest that the county gave in and removed the sign; I suppose outrage and sign theft were the resons behind that.

I'd like to say that a sign like that wouldn't offend me, since they have the right to free speech, but if the sign were on my front/backyard, I'd forcibly remove it too...I have the right not to listen or be manipulated. Flame me for having a double standard.

 

[Max_DC]

As much as I hate Nazis, people in America have the right to think and believe whatever they want, as long as they dont infringe on someone elses rights. That's what makes this Country better than every other nation on earth. And actually I'm kind of glad stuff like that happens(the signs) because people in America do not have the Right to not be offended, contrary to popular belief nowadays.

Oh well, a nice example of blind patriotism and US arrogance
Guess what I also have the right to say and think what I want, yet I can go downtown at night without having to fear to be shot or robbed in a dark corner... You know, I just want to show you, that every nation has positive and negative aspects and while many things in the USA might be great, others aren't... for my taste for example there are way too many weapons in your country, your health system also has some fairness problems etc, then the USA are a quite young nation (less culture etc ), we have the Autobahn without speed limit etc... well I respect your opinion, but imo posts like these might offend certain groups out there and might aswell be the reason for the rather poor US image in certain areas of the world.

So you think that the USA is the greatest country in the world or maybe for you it indeed is. Personal opinion, which you make absolute and universal by using"it is"....

Well back to the topic, this is a difficult problem.
freedom of speech/opinon vs antidemocratic-semicrimnial organisations. Tough to decide, I'd say the government should care for the streets, as here in Germany for example, then this kind of problem solves itself

 

[87chevy]

Oh well, a nice example of blind patriotism and US arrogance
Guess what I also have the right to say and think what I want, yet I can go downtown at night without having to fear to be shot or robbed in a dark corner... You know, I just want to show you, that every nation has positive and negative aspects and while many things in the USA might be great, others aren't... for my taste for example there are way too many weapons in your country, your health system also has some fairness problems etc, then the USA are a quite young nation (less culture etc ), we have the Autobahn without speed limit etc... well I respect your opinion, but imo posts like these might offend certain groups out there and might aswell be the reason for the rather poor US image in certain areas of the world.

So you think that the USA is the greatest country in the world or maybe for you it indeed is. Personal opinion, which you make absolute and universal by using"it is"....

Well back to the topic, this is a difficult problem.
freedom of speech/opinon vs antidemocratic-semicrimnial organisations. Tough to decide, I'd say the government should care for the streets, as here in Germany for example, then this kind of problem solves itself

Even with all of America's negatives I wouldn't live anywhere else. And being able to own as many Firearms as I want has a big part in that belief. Blind patriotism my arse. You should know who your talking to before you make such blind assumptions. And who give's a flying **** who that offends? If someone is offended by that statement then they probably need to re-evaluate their own beliefs in why their nation is better. Because most likely they are actually Jealous of the Freedoms Americans have, ones they should have but are denied.

 

[niky]

Now blind patriotism is saying that the good ol' US of A is better than every other country on earth. To make that assumption, you have to first prove that the US is better at everything. Best cost-of-living, best per capita income, best retirement benefits, lowest inflation, lowest crime, etcetera, etcetera, etceterae.

Now, while the US is a pretty swell place to live, I'd rate it up there with Sweden and Canada, probably... , it's not the best place to live according to every single statistic, now is it?

 

[FoolKiller]

Well back to the topic, this is a difficult problem.
freedom of speech/opinon vs antidemocratic-semicrimnial organisations.

What is so difficult about it? You let people say whatever they want because the moment you limit someone for because someone else may be offended you set yourself on a slippery slop and by the time you finish stopping all possible offensive speech you have a country of people that cannot debate religion, politics, or anything else opinionated. At that point you might as well be the same Nazis you originally tried to silence.

Tough to decide, I'd say the government should care for the streets, as here in Germany for example, then this kind of problem solves itself

Normally prisoners get to do this but this program allows environmentalists and charities to feel like they are helping the environment in some way.

If you really want to get back at the Nazis you save all your dirty diapers (or something equally disgusting) and throw them out the window as you drive on that stretch of road. Just watch for the cops because that is a $500 fine.

At least they didn't decide to repaint the lines on the road, like in Seinfeld.

 

[Swift]

Who cares. Seriously, who really cares. If they dont' do a a good job, rip down the sign. Simple as that.

 

[FoolKiller]

Who cares. Seriously, who really cares. If they dont' do a a good job, rip down the sign. Simple as that.

I think this sums up the issue being debated:

Two green Adopt-A-Highway signs reading "American Nazi Party" have popped up on a rural road a few miles from downtown Salem, and it's got people upset with the county for agreeing to put up the signs and worried about their neighborhood.

"I know we live in a free world. But that's not part of freedom, anything to do with the Nazis," said Barbara Hamblin, a 64-year-old who lives in a mobile home park just down the road from one of the signs.

"They had to have been off their rocker," she said.

It has nothing to do with whether they are doing a good job.

 

[Pupik]

If you really want to get back at the Nazis you save all your dirty diapers (or something equally disgusting) and throw them out the window as you drive on that stretch of road. Just watch for the cops because that is a $500 fine.

The American Nazi Party isn't cleaning the road, they are paying for the means to transport and supply prisoners and others completing "community service time" the ability to clean the roadsides.

Throwing rotten 'maters at the work crews means nothing, since the Nazis just wanted to have the ability to post a sign letting you know that their presence is around. That's likely the real reason they've paid for highway cleanup, or because it shows they "care".

 

[FoolKiller]

The American Nazi Party isn't cleaning the road, they are paying for the means to transport and supply prisoners and others completing "community service time" the ability to clean the roadsides.

Throwing rotten 'maters at the work crews means nothing, since the Nazis just wanted to have the ability to post a sign letting you know that their presence is around. That's likely the real reason they've paid for highway cleanup, or because it shows they "care".

No, this is different than the Adopt-A-Highway program.

This is from the Marion County Adopt-A-Road Web site.

Dear Marion County Resident: Thank you in advance for your interest in the Adopt-A-Road Program. Here is a brief explanation of the program:

• Requested commitment: 1 to 2 mile section of county road, with a minimum cleanup of 2 times per year.
  
• Commitment would be for 1 year, which can be extended for another year.
  
• Your section of adopted road is signed with the name of your group/family, in recognition of your efforts.
  
• You set your own schedule for pick-ups.
  
• We provide a container with vests, rubber gloves, yellow bags for trash, flags to flag any chemical, animals, large appliances, etc.
  
• We provide necessary signs .
  
• After each cleanup, the Litter Patrol will pick up the trash bags.
  
• Children under 18 must have a release form signed by their parent or guardian.
  
• No Children under the age of 12 are permitted to participate.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

I knew it! A couple of years ago I was going down the highway, glanced at an Adopt a Highway sign, and for a minute I thought it said, "Adopt A Hitler".
So I was right!

 

[Max_DC]

Even with all of America's negatives I wouldn't live anywhere else. And being able to own as many Firearms as I want has a big part in that belief. Blind patriotism my arse. You should know who your talking to before you make such blind assumptions. And who give's a flying **** who that offends? If someone is offended by that statement then they probably need to re-evaluate their own beliefs in why their nation is better. Because most likely they are actually Jealous of the Freedoms Americans have, ones they should have but are denied.

Well you wouldn't want to live anywhere else... well I believe you and why should you ? You live at a place you know since you are a baby, all your family and friends is there, you are used to that social surounding....
That applies to you, but not necessarily to anybody else on this planet. That was my point. I didn't want to flame the States, but you can't say : Oh poor little people outside the US, you can't live in the greatest country in this universe... From an objective point of view that just isn't true.

Wearing fireamrs is part of your beliefs? Ok, well... why ? I tell you sth... where I live, there is no need to protect your life and your property, because nobody is going to harm you... I know many police officers, but not one did ever have to use his weapon... and some have worked as a cop for 30 years.

People who say : America is better than every other nation on earth have...most likely never been abroad... it's not that bad outside the US, although some media might tell you

 

[Swift]

I think this sums up the issue being debated:



It has nothing to do with whether they are doing a good job.

So an older woman doesn't think Nazi's should be around. Ok, so?

I don't think racist people should be around at all, but they are. I don't think sexist people should be around, but they are. I don't think child molesters should leave jail with all the "anotomic equipment" they had when they got in, but they do. My opinion on the subjects don't directly change anything.

 

[FoolKiller]

So an older woman doesn't think Nazi's should be around. Ok, so?

I think it is the fact that it created a whole debate in the town. If one old-bitty complains I am sure she has worked all the other old-bitties into a fury.

I don't think racist people should be around at all, but they are. I don't think sexist people should be around, but they are. I don't think child molesters should leave jail with all the "anotomic equipment" they had when they got in, but they do. My opinion on the subjects don't directly change anything.

It is all a freedom of speech issue. Were this some free countries other than America this wouldn't be allowed to happen. Other countries practice the non-offensive clause in their freedom of speech laws, something which I find defeats the whole purpose.

That is where the debate comes in. Should Nazis be allowed to put the sign up and advertise their group, knowing it will offend 99% of the people that drive by?

I say yes because how long is it before all religious groups or political organizations have to be prevented from doing this if you decide to take action to stop Nazis and Klansmen from participating?

 

[Max_DC]

I think it is the fact that it created a whole debate in the town. If one old-bitty complains I am sure she has worked all the other old-bitties into a fury.


It is all a freedom of speech issue. Were this some free countries other than America this wouldn't be allowed to happen. Other countries practice the non-offensive clause in their freedom of speech laws, something which I find defeats the whole purpose.

That is where the debate comes in. Should Nazis be allowed to put the sign up and advertise their group, knowing it will offend 99% of the people that drive by?

I say yes because how long is it before all religious groups or political organizations have to be prevented from doing this if you decide to take action to stop Nazis and Klansmen from participating?

Imo the problem is, that Nazis are antidemocratic and against freedom of speech. Their philosophy is based on a dictator ... so why giving them a right they would abolish at first if they would hav the power? You have to draw a line somewhere... and I agree that it is not easy to find that thin line and that this one is in a grey area...

 

[FoolKiller]

so why giving them a right they would abolish at first if they would hav the power?

The same reason we didn't march all the WWII POWs into furnaces. We are better than that.

Just because they represent something you don't like does not mean that you become that thing in order to stop them.

All they are doing is talking and marching, perfectly legal and harmless acts, albeit offensive. When they disturb the peace, threaten others, physically harm others, or violate the rights of other humans in some way then you act against them, and then they are still given a fair trial that they would not give if they had the power.

In order for the experiment that is America to work everyone has to be treated equally under the law, despite their philosophies and ideals.