- 177
- Rome ITA GMT+1
- PowerDrome73
Hello to everyone,
I've read a lot of threads in this forum and understood that a lot of confusion is there between us, GT drivers.
Confusion that came out of:
In game description:
it has always be confusing because of translations of editors, lack of tech knowledge of the editors in respect of programmers or tech engineers that gave the input to the game or to the game manual.
An example overall is the spring rates value, it is called flexibility (or something similar), well, raising it should raise flexibility? Not at all, luckily in this value we have the unit Kg/mm so we easily understand that raising the value, increases stiffness (no flexibility), and also pragmatic test is easier to feel.
In the Initial torque definition, the manual says that IT is the torque required to activate the LSD, this is misleading and it's the root of our discussion so far: they should have written IT is the torque APPLIED when activating the LSD
Reports based on lap times:
Although I rely on feeling of other users, I well know how lap times are influenced by so many factors, concentration, type of driving at the moment, personal preferences, and experience that improves lap after lap; even if the average lap could be a sign, even changing nothing will improve our average times.
Confusion between causes and effects (of car behaviour).
The approach is misleading; we say that LSD LOCKS or UNLOCKS at Initial Torque=5 because the inside or outside tyre spins.
To clear this out think about karts, they work with a FULLY LOCKED or better a solid axle; well, I've been racing in karting for 5 years before upgrading to little formulas for 3 years, the lack of differential is intentional, just to make the inside tyre spin and this happens with a LOCKED transmission.
This said I'll try to explain how in the real racing world LSD works and how the 2 settings are used:
Initial torque:
In this case torque is NOT referred to engine-->transmission torque (or difference on grip lost)
It IS referred to torque applied by the LSD itself to its gears (clutch plates or oil) when it comes in action, therefore:
IT high = faster LOCK
IT low = slower LOCK (nearest to UNLOCK)
ACCEL SENS HIGH/LOW: stronger/weaker LOCK --> more/less transmission (power) to the NON-slipping tyre
same for DECEL SENS
Now the origin of confusion are the effects that you guys are feeling during tests.
In general a high Initial torque intensify the own grip peculiarities of the car: oversteer on RWD (lsd on rear axle), and understeer on FWD (lsd on front axle).
Most of you should be surprised because we are thinking at LSD as a tool to make the car spin less or more safe/stable --> WRONG.
In fact on standard cars they are not equipped because (they are very expensive too, yeah) it is more safe to have one tyre (more often the inside tyre) lose grip, while the other has NO power(traction) at-all from the engine.
LSD is a tool equipped on special cars, racing, off-road, or gran turismo sportcars to improve performance, to STILL give traction to the wheel that is not spinning (loosing grip).
Careful! Traction is different from grip.
This is the point where we should clarify confusion:
I've just said that karts have a LOCKED transmission --> the inside tyre spins.
I've just said also that standard cars with a standard differential (UNLOCKED) --> the inside tyre spins (more often).
What's the difference:
On karts the outside tyre STILL have 100% of the power/transmission, this could end in controlled slide (perfect and fast curve) OR loss of grip of both tyres--> spin/crash
On standard cars (standard transmission) the outside tyre Will get near 0% of transmission/power, automatically decelerate making the slipping tyre gradually re-gain grip and more probably stay on the road, if we didn't exceeded the limits.
HERE comes the real difference on tuning an LSD for better grip and performance:
!!!Traction is different from grip!!!
Tuning LSD we make the power from engine still give traction to the tyre with grip while the other is slipping.
Locking the LSD, its quickness with the IT, its strength (quantity) with ACCel and Decel Sens, WE make the car faster during turns because of more traction, BUT we increase the own grip peculiarities of the car: oversteer on RWD (lsd on rear axle), and understeer on FWD (lsd on front axle); if we cannot handle it, we will experience more slipping.
I hope this will clarify confusion coming from different effects experienced by users trying opposite settings, again different effects like inside or outside tyres spinning doesn't mean an LSD locked or unlocked.
Ending, I feel that in-game description is misleading, the above is how LSD works in real and experiencing it in GT5 I can say that following this definition works great.
Low Initial Torque and Med/High ACCEL& DECEL SENS if your driving style is EXTREME (sliding turns)
Low Initial Torque and Low/Med ACCEL& DECEL SENS if your driving style is Expert/MEd (safer)
Med/High Initial Torque and Low/Med ACCEL& DECEL SENS for DRIFTING.
Good driving to all. CYA on the tracks
I've read a lot of threads in this forum and understood that a lot of confusion is there between us, GT drivers.
Confusion that came out of:
In game description:
it has always be confusing because of translations of editors, lack of tech knowledge of the editors in respect of programmers or tech engineers that gave the input to the game or to the game manual.
An example overall is the spring rates value, it is called flexibility (or something similar), well, raising it should raise flexibility? Not at all, luckily in this value we have the unit Kg/mm so we easily understand that raising the value, increases stiffness (no flexibility), and also pragmatic test is easier to feel.
In the Initial torque definition, the manual says that IT is the torque required to activate the LSD, this is misleading and it's the root of our discussion so far: they should have written IT is the torque APPLIED when activating the LSD
Reports based on lap times:
Although I rely on feeling of other users, I well know how lap times are influenced by so many factors, concentration, type of driving at the moment, personal preferences, and experience that improves lap after lap; even if the average lap could be a sign, even changing nothing will improve our average times.
Confusion between causes and effects (of car behaviour).
The approach is misleading; we say that LSD LOCKS or UNLOCKS at Initial Torque=5 because the inside or outside tyre spins.
To clear this out think about karts, they work with a FULLY LOCKED or better a solid axle; well, I've been racing in karting for 5 years before upgrading to little formulas for 3 years, the lack of differential is intentional, just to make the inside tyre spin and this happens with a LOCKED transmission.
This said I'll try to explain how in the real racing world LSD works and how the 2 settings are used:
Initial torque:
In this case torque is NOT referred to engine-->transmission torque (or difference on grip lost)
It IS referred to torque applied by the LSD itself to its gears (clutch plates or oil) when it comes in action, therefore:
IT high = faster LOCK
IT low = slower LOCK (nearest to UNLOCK)
ACCEL SENS HIGH/LOW: stronger/weaker LOCK --> more/less transmission (power) to the NON-slipping tyre
same for DECEL SENS
Now the origin of confusion are the effects that you guys are feeling during tests.
In general a high Initial torque intensify the own grip peculiarities of the car: oversteer on RWD (lsd on rear axle), and understeer on FWD (lsd on front axle).
Most of you should be surprised because we are thinking at LSD as a tool to make the car spin less or more safe/stable --> WRONG.
In fact on standard cars they are not equipped because (they are very expensive too, yeah) it is more safe to have one tyre (more often the inside tyre) lose grip, while the other has NO power(traction) at-all from the engine.
LSD is a tool equipped on special cars, racing, off-road, or gran turismo sportcars to improve performance, to STILL give traction to the wheel that is not spinning (loosing grip).
Careful! Traction is different from grip.
This is the point where we should clarify confusion:
I've just said that karts have a LOCKED transmission --> the inside tyre spins.
I've just said also that standard cars with a standard differential (UNLOCKED) --> the inside tyre spins (more often).
What's the difference:
On karts the outside tyre STILL have 100% of the power/transmission, this could end in controlled slide (perfect and fast curve) OR loss of grip of both tyres--> spin/crash
On standard cars (standard transmission) the outside tyre Will get near 0% of transmission/power, automatically decelerate making the slipping tyre gradually re-gain grip and more probably stay on the road, if we didn't exceeded the limits.
HERE comes the real difference on tuning an LSD for better grip and performance:
!!!Traction is different from grip!!!
Tuning LSD we make the power from engine still give traction to the tyre with grip while the other is slipping.
Locking the LSD, its quickness with the IT, its strength (quantity) with ACCel and Decel Sens, WE make the car faster during turns because of more traction, BUT we increase the own grip peculiarities of the car: oversteer on RWD (lsd on rear axle), and understeer on FWD (lsd on front axle); if we cannot handle it, we will experience more slipping.
I hope this will clarify confusion coming from different effects experienced by users trying opposite settings, again different effects like inside or outside tyres spinning doesn't mean an LSD locked or unlocked.
Ending, I feel that in-game description is misleading, the above is how LSD works in real and experiencing it in GT5 I can say that following this definition works great.
Low Initial Torque and Med/High ACCEL& DECEL SENS if your driving style is EXTREME (sliding turns)
Low Initial Torque and Low/Med ACCEL& DECEL SENS if your driving style is Expert/MEd (safer)
Med/High Initial Torque and Low/Med ACCEL& DECEL SENS for DRIFTING.
Good driving to all. CYA on the tracks
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