Man Killed By Police for Watering Lawn

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If you can believe the police and there's no reason not to at this point, this is what happens when you get wasted and take something into your hands that looks like a gun from across a lawn and point it at cops as if you are about to shoot. The fact that it turned out to be a hose attachment that looks like a gun makes it a tragedy, but I don't blame the cops for this at all.
 
It isn't about tolerating the cops, it's about not doing really really stupid stuff to the cops.

There's nothing to tolerate here. The guy raised the "gun" in a shooting stance. You don't then say, "Drop the gun!" You shoot in self-defense. If you yell "Drop the gun!" and wait to see what happens, you end up dead. Conversation ends with the aggressive stance.

Anybody that can tell see that this was a hose sprayer when it's in a 2-handed grip and pointed at you has better eyes than mine, and anybody willing to stand in front of it and wait to see what happens may very well have a much shorter life than mine.

The 911 caller reported "a drunk with a gun," so the cops expected a gun. The guy raised it as if to shoot. In his drunken state he probably thought he was playing a game with them.

It's very sad, and I do feel for the family's loss, but the police did nothing worng given the information they had.

And where was this concerned family while the guy is wandering around drunk by himself, unable to get inside anywhere?
 
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Oh, as for the thread title, he was not killed for watering his lawn. That kind of sensationalism has nothing to do with what happened. He wasn't even watering anything. He was carrying a loose sprayer.

The one story says, "just sitting on the porch." Also not true, according to police.

The phrase "hail of bullets" has no place in real journalism, either. This whole story, while tragic, has become nothing but "Cops are idiots and murdered this guy!" and that's NOT what happened.

No one, not even the family, said, "The cops just showed up, got out of their cars shooting," but that's how the media is presenting it, and all of you are swallowing it, hook, line, and sinker.

I can't lose faith in America because the police shot a man who made an aggressive move with something in his hands. Where I lose faith in America is that people can see a speculative sensationalist report and accept it at face value without a second thought. It comes from a groups called "Tyranny USA," and you don't think the story has an agenda???
 
In hindsight, because it may not be clear, the reaction I was referencing was the post that I quoted. wfooshee hit the nail on the head.
 
In my opinion, police officers who kill "suspects" for reasons or assumptions later found to be false (pistol vs. spray nozzle) should immediately lose their career and their ability to hold any government job position, and should be charged with manslaughter, at minimum, with an expedited trial.

If you ruin somebody's life because you didn't put yours on the line first to judge the situation - your job is to protect and serve - then your life should be ruined as well.

I think there should be some sort of test administered during police training to judge how willing a prospective officer is to give up their own life to 1) protect an innocent citizen and 2) to place even a criminal's right to trial above their own right to life. Anybody who doesn't pass both of those tests should not be allowed to become an officer. This whole police-as-a-fraternity mentality they seem to have has to end. Their job is to protect everybody else, not each other.

TL;DR: I don't think police should be allowed the same self-defense rights as citizens. They should not have any advantage over citizens in terms of self-defense. Some how, an attitude of mutual respect has to be fostered between citizens and police because I don't believe it exists between police and younger generations like my own.
 
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In my opinion, police officers who kill "suspects" for reasons or assumptions later found to be false (pistol vs. spray nozzle) should immediately lose their career and their ability to hold any government job position, and should be charged with manslaughter, at minimum, with an expedited trial.
Insane. Falsehood does not matter. What does matter is if there was any reasonable way to determine a falsehood. Imagine this situation with a 100% accurate toy gun for instance.

If you ruin somebody's life because you didn't put yours on the line first to judge the situation - your job is to protect and serve - then your life should be ruined as well.
But cops shouldn't be expendable.

I think there should be some sort of test administered during police training to judge how willing a prospective officer is to give up their own life to 1) protect an innocent citizen and 2) to place even a criminal's right to trial above their own right to life. Anybody who doesn't pass both of those tests should not be allowed to become an officer. This whole police-as-a-fraternity mentality they seem to have has to end. Their job is to protect everybody else, not each other.

I think someone acting stupid should lose their life rather than a rational cop. It makes no sense charging a machine gunner with handcuffs to bring him to trial if it's going to create a graveyard.

You can definitely make an argument for cops needing to take risks, but I do think that goes regardless of the situation.
 
In my opinion, police officers who kill "suspects" for reasons or assumptions later found to be false (pistol vs. spray nozzle) should immediately lose their career and their ability to hold any government job position, and should be charged with manslaughter, at minimum, with an expedited trial.

If you ruin somebody's life because you didn't put yours on the line first to judge the situation - your job is to protect and serve - then your life should be ruined as well.

I think there should be some sort of test administered during police training to judge how willing a prospective officer is to give up their own life to 1) protect an innocent citizen and 2) to place even a criminal's right to trial above their own right to life. Anybody who doesn't pass both of those tests should not be allowed to become an officer. This whole police-as-a-fraternity mentality they seem to have has to end. Their job is to protect everybody else, not each other.

👍 This is how I feel about it too.

Also without there being a video of what happened we never really know what went down.

I don't know where to find more info about what happened here but I wonder if the hose nozzle was attached to a hose or not? If it was surely that's a dead give away of what the man is holding. If it was attached to a hose then the officer that fired the shot then deserves to be charged with murder, if it wasn't attached then he had a little more reason to open fire, but even so I feel the officer should have at least spoke to the man first.
 
Insane. Falsehood does not matter. What does matter is if there was any reasonable way to determine a falsehood. Imagine this situation with a 100% accurate toy gun for instance.
That's difficult to determine when you're talking about an organization whose existence depends on public trust and submission. If that trust does not exist then citizens will not submit. Like any government organization, it's likely they'll do anything required to maintain that trust including lying and covering up facts.

But cops shouldn't be expendable.
People shouldn't be expendable in that cops accidentally kill somebody and get nothing more than a few months off work while the investigation is ongoing.

It makes no sense charging a machine gunner with handcuffs to bring him to trial if it's going to create a graveyard.
In that case I assume you believe the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution makes no sense.
 
In my opinion, police officers who kill "suspects" for reasons or assumptions later found to be false (pistol vs. spray nozzle) should immediately lose their career and their ability to hold any government job position, and should be charged with manslaughter, at minimum, with an expedited trial.
In the UK there's currently a kerfuffle over an old police incident from a few years back.

Basic summary is "some people who weren't there think that a firearms officer putting 8 rounds into a guy in the back of the car is unjustifiable manslaughter". He's in a crapload of trouble.

The reality of the events is that "a firearms officer as part of a gangs team trailing an armed, dangerous subject put as many rounds as he could tell hit the guy through the shattering glass into a the same armed, dangerous subject reaching for one of the three guns in the car".
 
In my opinion, police officers who kill "suspects" for reasons or assumptions later found to be false (pistol vs. spray nozzle) should immediately lose their career and their ability to hold any government job position, and should be charged with manslaughter, at minimum, with an expedited trial.
One of the dumbest things I've ever read, but you seem to have a pretty silly "cause" against government/superior figures, so it's not surprising.

As Wfooshee pointed out, when officers arrived, they were told a "drunk with a gun". They're expecting a gun. That's not their fault they were given that information. They see a man holding a spray nozzle. From a distance, they do look like guns. The man sees the cops & takes an aggressive stance with it pointed at them.

Here's now what you expect them to do; stand down & find out if its real or not which means someone has to potentially take a bullet for everyone else. That's just plain stupid.

TL;DR: I don't think police should be allowed the same self-defense rights as citizens. They should not have any advantage over citizens in terms of self-defense. Some how, an attitude of mutual respect has to be fostered between citizens and police because I don't believe it exists between police and younger generations like my own.
That's because the younger generation is full of goddamn idiots who feel the police oppress them for the stupid things they are actually guilty of; your generation refuses to take responsibility for being stupid & that goes well beyond their relationship with police.

Cops go & voluntarily put their lives at risk. They are owed a different set of self-defense rights for that alone.
 
In the UK there's currently a kerfuffle over an old police incident from a few years back.

Basic summary is "some people who weren't there think that a firearms officer putting 8 rounds into a guy in the back of the car is unjustifiable manslaughter". He's in a crapload of trouble.

The reality of the events is that "a firearms officer as part of a gangs team trailing an armed, dangerous subject put as many rounds as he could tell hit the guy through the shattering glass into a the same armed, dangerous subject reaching for one of the three guns in the car".
There have been cases on both sides of the fence. Something genuine happens and it gets spun to make cops look bad. Or something silly happens and it gets spun to make cops look good.

I don't care about any of that. The thing that I care about is that police enjoy self-defense rights that the rest of the public does not. I see that as a potentially dangerous problem. Anybody interested in limiting the power of government should see that as a problem. I don't see this same shoot-your-neighbor-and-apologize attitude from soldiers returning from the middle east; more often I see from them a distrust of police and a willingness to stand between police and citizens because they were trained specifically to protect citizens from threats at all costs.
 
That's difficult to determine when you're talking about an organization whose existence depends on public trust and submission. If that trust does not exist then citizens will not submit. Like any government organization, it's likely they'll do anything required to maintain that trust including lying and covering up facts.
If this is about the organization, why in your first post do you target the individual cop and deem that his/her life should be ruined?

Also, what's going to keep them from lying if they don't have to prove any doubts?


People shouldn't be expendable in that cops accidentally kill somebody and get nothing more than a few months off work while the investigation is ongoing.
I agree with this, but I may not see accidental the same way you do. If someone's asking for cops to kill them and they die by cop, the cop isn't being irresponsible.

In that case I assume you believe the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution makes no sense.
Not when the cop has the right to self defense.
 
They should be allowed the same self-defence rights - they're ordinary citizens as well as being the domestic force for the defence of rights - but no more.

Also, the thought occurs that, actually, British cops are as a whole pretty good and can practically work as a single body - with more or less uniform training and entry requirements... while US cops seem to be a bunch of disparate entities with different responsibilities and jurisdictions that I can't even reconcile and just about anybody can become one depending on the locale. So I can see why opinion may differ across the lake.
 
In the UK there's currently a kerfuffle over an old police incident from a few years back.

Basic summary is "some people who weren't there think that a firearms officer putting 8 rounds into a guy in the back of the car is unjustifiable manslaughter". He's in a crapload of trouble.

The reality of the events is that "a firearms officer as part of a gangs team trailing an armed, dangerous subject put as many rounds as he could tell hit the guy through the shattering glass into a the same armed, dangerous subject reaching for one of the three guns in the car".

Wasn't it proven that the officer that opened fire did so before he was actually able to determine if he was reaching for the gun?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23193571

No doubt he did have guns in the car, and probably would have used them though, seeing as they were on their way to rip off another gang for drugs, but overall the whole situation probably wouldn't have happened if they changed the drug laws in the UK but that's a different subject.
 
Yeah our police are hap hazard to say the least, not necessarily fault of their own. We have some problems.

Bypassing all of that stuff for a moment, it seems to me we could live as a responsible enough peoples to not need, want, call, support, these seeming over the top cops. (IMO, but i's a big one)
 
Here's now what you expect them to do; stand down & find out if its real or not which means someone has to potentially take a bullet for everyone else. That's just plain stupid.
That's precisely what I expect them to do. That's what they're supposed to do. Killing a suspect is a police officer's absolute last resort, and if you've exhausted your list of options and not managed to figure out whether that gun is real or not then you've done something wrong. There's a reason we hear about these hours-long police standoffs on the news - because they're doing what they're supposed to do, which is contain and deescalate without loss of life.


That's because the younger generation is full of goddamn idiots who feel the police oppress them for the stupid things they are actually guilty of; your generation refuses to take responsibility for being stupid & that goes well beyond their relationship with police.
People in general, not only younger generations, are more often then not guilty of victimless crimes. Cited for things that do nothing to uphold public safety. I personally see that as a waste of time and many officers do too, but if they don't meet their quotas they'll lose their jobs.

If I'm not mistaken you're part of my generation, I'm 25.
 
Family of man shot, killed by Long Beach police awarded $6.5 million
Friday, April 05, 2013



It's possible It seems that the police officer lied about the man holding the nozzle in an aggressive manor like it was gun.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=9054853

"And part of the proof is pretty simple, because the shots from the shotgun struck Douglass right in the chest and they killed him," he said. "And if he were holding the nozzle...the water nozzle would have been shot, his hands would have been shot, and they were completely pristine, there was no damage to them."

"Mark Zerby felt vindicated Thursday after a federal civil court jury awarded his family the $6.5 million and found two Long Beach police officers liable in the death of his son."

This case is OLD! Just realized the original video was uploaded Dec 2010.
 
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Wasn't it proven that the officer that opened fire did so before he was actually able to determine if he was reaching for the gun?
I'd say it was "decided" rather than "proven".

By people who weren't there and treat the discharge of a firearm like the guest house owners in Borat treat a turd in a napkin.

There was one gun per scum in that car.
 
If this is about the organization, why in your first post do you target the individual cop and deem that his/her life should be ruined?

Also, what's going to keep them from lying if they don't have to prove any doubts?
Because I hadn't thought my position out thoroughly.

And you tell me because I'm not sure. They currently get away with not proving doubts all the time, as if they're above the law. That's the example I gave. One thing that would level the playing field is a really solid reason for them to do their jobs perfectly the first time, every time.

I agree with this, but I may not see accidental the same way you do. If someone's asking for cops to kill them and they die by cop, the cop isn't being irresponsible.
In my opinion, pointing a gun-shaped object at a cop and telling him you're going to shoot him still doesn't qualify. That's a good reason to start negotiations or standoff, but not a good reason for the cop to just shoot them down.


Not when the cop has the right to self defense.

They should be allowed the same self-defence rights - they're ordinary citizens as well as being the domestic force for the defence of rights - but no more.
I think what you mean is ordinary citizens should be allowed the same self-defense rights, because we aren't in most places and in some places are allowed hardly any. Indiana is leading the way with citizen rights - if cops mistakenly "raid" your home then you're within your rights to kill them as you would any unwelcome intruder. Or as they would do to you if you entered the police station maliciously.

Also, the thought occurs that, actually, British cops are as a whole pretty good and can practically work as a single body - with more or less uniform training and entry requirements... while US cops seem to be a bunch of disparate entities with different responsibilities and jurisdictions that I can't even reconcile and just about anybody can become one depending on the locale. So I can see why opinion may differ across the lake.
I don't think anybody understands their system fully. Some small towns still have a wild west-style system where the Sheriff does what he does, everybody goes along with it, and they don't worry if something sketchy happens because word never gets out of town anyway.

There was one gun per scum in that car.
That's very slightly higher than per-capita ownership in the US, not necessarily the actual per-capita rate. Not too worried about it. Perhaps they should have tracked them in the background until a SWAT team could be dispatched.
 
I think what you mean is ordinary citizens should be allowed the same self-defense rights
Potato/potato*. They should be equal whether one group's being dragged up or t'other down.

Mods are members too :D
That's very slightly higher than per-capita ownership in the US, not necessarily the actual per-capita rate. Not too worried about it. Perhaps they should have tracked them in the background until a SWAT team could be dispatched.
Aye, but they were criminals - and pretty severe ones - besides the owning guns thing that we have.

Also, they were "SWAT". Our cops aren't armed. Specialist Firearms Officers are, and "E7" was a SFO - along with everyone in the three cars tailing him.

*Look. When has ANYONE other than quoting that song EVER said "po-tah-toe" rather than "po-tay-toe"?
 
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I don't know about you, but I do have the same self-defense right as a cop. Perhaps even more, as I am allowed to shoot to kill any perpetrator in the commission of a life-threatening crime, anywhere, against any person, not limited to a threat to myself. I am allowed to shoot to kill any person found illegally present inside my home, whether I perceive actual danger to myself or not. Their presence is implication enough, under the law.

As for the case, I didn't realize it was 3 years old, either. Kudos to the family's legal staff for being able to demonstrate the lie.

It's important to realize that the lie is probably not from the police as a whole, but from the officer or officers directly involved, with a healthy amount of CYA involved, realizing the screw-up. In such a case there is most certainly a loss of faith between the public and their police force.

I still maintain that had events actually gone down as presented by the police, their actions would have been 100% correct and justifiable. It's simply unreasonable (Keef) to wait for a cop to get shot and possibly killed before going inot actual defensive action. You're not going to recruit many policemen if that's the actual position of the law. It's not their job to face deadly force passively. It is their job to deal with deadly force appropriately to remove the threat to public safety.
 
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It's important to realize that the lie is probably not from the police as a whole, but from the officer or officers directly involved, with a healthy amount of CYA involved, realizing the screw-up. In such a case there is most certainly a loss of faith between the public and their police force.
Which too often seems to be the case in instances like this. I've seen cases where a guy was shot in the back and the police claim he was being aggressive. There's even cases where police dispute unnecessary deadly force when a man is cuffed and pinned to the ground, and then shot.

Police too often back each other up in these cases. If an act is performed in uniform as part of their job the whole police force backs him up, he gets attorneys provided by the police force, and it is in every officer's interest to justify every wrongful death so that when they have a legitimate case come up they don't have a history of unnecessary violence on their force.

Sure, the police were telling the story as officers on site reported it. But how thorough did they dig into it and investigate those involved of wrongful death? Is it in their interest to do that or to support the story?

I still maintain that had events actually gone down as presented by the police, their actions would have been 100% correct and justifiable. It's simply unreasonable (Keef) to wait for a cop to get shot and possibly killed before going inot actual defensive action. You're not going to recruit many policemen if that's the actual position of the law. It's not their job to face deadly force passively. It is their job to deal with deadly force appropriately to remove the threat to public safety.
Here is why it is unreasonable. They were told in advance that there was a man with a gun. They showed up and approached in a wreckless manner, as to be open in the event of a violent reaction. They put themselves in an unnecessarily risky position without cover.

They approached with guns at the ready to be in a position to accuraty fire a shotgun, not even a side arm, at the man quicker than they could say, "lower your weapon." Even our own military's rules of engagement require them to identify probable deadly threat when dealing with an unidentified target, often in the form of an actual attack.

The fact is they described themselves as approaching a man they believed to have a gun, not being otherwise aggressive, in a manner that does not indicate an intent to defuse tensions. They describe themselves as having shotguns at the ready, fingers on triggers and aimed, in a way to make firing the quickest response.

They also described the man as sitting on the landing, pointing the "gun" in a two-handed stance, at the officers. Images of the landing show railing on the side where the bullets came from. Images show impact points in the railing, far too low to be a center mass shot on a standing man. Just looking at the space the man was in when he was shot I was immediately suspicious of the police story.


Ultimately, all homicides should be investigated for their justifiable means. And no police, in the line of duty or not, should be exempt from that. They are trained and should have an even higher standard.
 
It isn't about tolerating the cops, it's about not doing really really stupid stuff to the cops.

There's nothing to tolerate here. The guy raised the "gun" in a shooting stance. You don't then say, "Drop the gun!" You shoot in self-defense. If you yell "Drop the gun!" and wait to see what happens, you end up dead. Conversation ends with the aggressive stance.

Anybody that can tell see that this was a hose sprayer when it's in a 2-handed grip and pointed at you has better eyes than mine, and anybody willing to stand in front of it and wait to see what happens may very well have a much shorter life than mine.

The 911 caller reported "a drunk with a gun," so the cops expected a gun. The guy raised it as if to shoot. In his drunken state he probably thought he was playing a game with them.

It's very sad, and I do feel for the family's loss, but the police did nothing worng given the information they had.

And where was this concerned family while the guy is wandering around drunk by himself, unable to get inside anywhere?

Spot on 👍.

Timing is of the essence in a matter like this. There is no time for an "idle talk down" when these policemen were looking down at what was supposed to be a "real gun" being aimed at them. IMO, they acted the way they were trained to in this given situation.

I too feel bad for the loss this family has suffered. It's just to bad that this man acted out of order and brought his death upon himself by his own actions.
 
👍 This is how I feel about it too.

Also without there being a video of what happened we never really know what went down.

I don't know where to find more info about what happened here but I wonder if the hose nozzle was attached to a hose or not? If it was surely that's a dead give away of what the man is holding. If it was attached to a hose then the officer that fired the shot then deserves to be charged with murder, if it wasn't attached then he had a little more reason to open fire, but even so I feel the officer should have at least spoke to the man first.

Even if it were attached to the hose, the hose might have been hidden by railings or posts on the porch, no guarantee it can be seen clearly and distinctly from the sidewalk.

Yeah our police are hap hazard to say the least, not necessarily fault of their own. We have some problems.

Bypassing all of that stuff for a moment, it seems to me we could live as a responsible enough peoples to not need, want, call, support, these seeming over the top cops. (IMO, but i's a big one)

For every incident where police are called into question for their conduct, either justifiably or not, there are 10's of thousands of interactions between the police and public that are by the book. Let's not flush the baby with the bathwater shall we.

Killing a suspect is a police officer's absolute last resort, and if you've exhausted your list of options and not managed to figure out whether that gun is real or not then you've done something wrong.

In my opinion, pointing a gun-shaped object at a cop and telling him you're going to shoot him still doesn't qualify. That's a good reason to start negotiations or standoff, but not a good reason for the cop to just shoot them down.

This is ridiculous pardon my french. For every guy shot holding a lawn sprinkler, hundreds of cops will get shot at by people aiming guns at police that maybe aren't clearly visible or don't pass your silly test of "is it a gun-shaped object or a gun?" Decisions of life and death often need to be made in portions of a second and you don't have time to make the judgment in the field. Moral of the story is, don't point anything at a cop that might be construed as a gun, or you will probably get shot.
 
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