Maximum Realism Racing
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CodeRedR51
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Real tires for the SuperGT cars would be Racing Hard. Anything less than that is not a slick tire.
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- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
Have you ever driven on real slick tires? Basically what I'm saying, and what PD themselves have said in the past is the tires are not completely accurate to their names. Real hard compound slicks are much closer to what sports medium feels like in GT5, that's why I use them. Play any professional simulator like netkar pro or iracing if you can't go racing in a real car, you'll notice the levels of grip in the tires is much less than gt5 has for comparable tires, that's because PD increased grip to make the sim more accessible.
Ever notice how all the GT academy competitions use comfort mediums for stock cars? and comfort soft for tuned cars? Or how the David Coulthard real vs virtual time attack competition used comfort soft on the SLS in GT5 instead of the sports hard that car came with? It's because those tires are closer to what the cars actually have on them. You catch my drift? (no pun intended)
Typically if you want to truly simulate a certain tire in GT5, go 2 grades down. If you want to simulate soft slicks, use racing hard in gt5, hard slicks- sports medium, semi-slicks- sports hard, high performance road tires- comfort soft, regular street tires- comfort medium or hard, etc.
Like I've said, GT5 is only as realistic as you make it. The physics engine is top notch, but the level of grip in the tires are inaccurate. Frankly, I don't think anything on earth has as much grip as the racing soft tires in this game, using those makes this game seem very arcadish
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- 4,881
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- chorda / GTP_chorda
You should read up on the latteral g-forces each compound in GT5 generates.
I'm sertain that a real life Super GT car can pull a lot more than 0,94-1 latteral G..
But then again, I've not driven a Super GT in real life, but I don't think you have either.
Also, to me at least, it's really hard to say this or that feels like in real life.. Cause that's really hard to judge in front of the screen driving a car you've never driven IRL.
And reading about your comparison with the SLS, what you're saying I'd that Comfort Softs are comparable with a high end street tire.. I can agree on that..
But there's only one compound between a high end street tyre and a full Racing Slick used in Super GT?
What happened to everything in between?
Do they all fit in the Sport Hards category you say?
And on another note, the latteral G-Forces are exactly the same in GT5 no matter which car you put them on (given that it's the same tyre).
With this in mind, a Sport Hard tyre on a SLS could simulate a street legal slick, but to simulate a street legal slick on a VW golf perhaps does'nt require more than a Comfort Soft.. In GT5 that is.
I'm sertain that a real life Super GT car can pull a lot more than 0,94-1 latteral G..
But then again, I've not driven a Super GT in real life, but I don't think you have either.
Also, to me at least, it's really hard to say this or that feels like in real life.. Cause that's really hard to judge in front of the screen driving a car you've never driven IRL.
And reading about your comparison with the SLS, what you're saying I'd that Comfort Softs are comparable with a high end street tire.. I can agree on that..
But there's only one compound between a high end street tyre and a full Racing Slick used in Super GT?
What happened to everything in between?
Do they all fit in the Sport Hards category you say?
And on another note, the latteral G-Forces are exactly the same in GT5 no matter which car you put them on (given that it's the same tyre).
With this in mind, a Sport Hard tyre on a SLS could simulate a street legal slick, but to simulate a street legal slick on a VW golf perhaps does'nt require more than a Comfort Soft.. In GT5 that is.
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- 1,633
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- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
Well I'm not judging the cars, I'm judging the tires. I'm not saying this is exact either but the tires are at least off by one grade, in some cases 2.
Polyphony has said in the past that if you really want to simulate driving to use lower grade tires than what the game gives you. It really can't be that unexpected that they would give tires more grip than they would have in the real world, so I'm a little surprised that you're resistant to this notion.
I've driven a few cars in this game on real tracks, and from my experience, the tires that are considered stock in this game are inaccurately grippy. I choose to use tires that will best simulate what driving the car would actually be like in the real world, if you don't like the idea don't join the race.
CodeRedR51
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The tyre model in GT5 is much much more complicated than that I'm afraid.
Oh, and I totally agree that Racing Softs are waaay to grippy.. But there's quite a few options that you left out on the latter..
And one more thing I'd like to add while we're discussing tyres/Super GT..
The Lap record at Suzuka IRL in Super GT 2006 was a 1:49.XXX.. It was in the ARTA NSX '06. That exact car is in GT5.
Try to run it around Suzuka with it fully run in and see what kind of time you'll end up with on Sport Mediums.
If you're less than 10 seconds off, I'll eat my hat.
Even if you drive until you're almost out of fuel, and pit for new rubber, you'll not even be close.
With this in mind, I just can't agree that Sport Mediums is even close to "how it should feel".
But I do agree that some compounds in various scenarios are too grippy, yes.
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- 1,633
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- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
Agreed. There is no perfect solution, but I believe my solution does get GT5 closer to a simulation. What other options?
I suppose so. I've changed it to sports soft because from what I could find by googling was that GT500 cars use medium compounds for most races, depending on conditions.
I wouldn't use sports mediums for that test unless they were using hard compounds for the lap record. I would bet that lap record was set with soft compounds, in which case I'll see if I can do that time with racing hard.
Also, I'm not the best driver. IF I can't get that lap time, it's not because of the tire. The level of skill that driver must have had is above the skill I have in GT5.
Take the top gear test track event for example. The best times set in gt5 on comfort soft were extreme close to David Coulthard despite him cutting the course every chance he got.
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- 7,938
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- chorda / GTP_chorda
The best drivers I've seen in GT5 run in the 1:50's on low fuel.. So close enough..
And one thing about the racing tyres in general..
IRL, you have Super GT and F1 i.e
Are you guys saying that RH, RM and RS tyres simulate all different compounds in both these classes at the same time?
You do understand that a "Medium" tyre used in F1 separates a lot from a "Medium" Super GT tyre?
Hence I was and still am against the tyre wear update GT5 did..
Imo, each compound represent a class of racing..
I.e Racing Hards for GT racing
Racing Mediums for F1 racing (perhaps a GT quali compound)
Racing Softs (the softest imaginable compound used as the Super Soft F1 tyre/quali tyre.), or unrealisticly soft to be frank.
And within those 3 categories, all the various compounds have "Hards", "mediums", and "softs".. However, GT5 does'nt take it that far, hence the tyre wear was similar over the various compounds. It should be viewed upon as 3 completely different tyres, and not comparable with "Hards", "Mediums" and "softs" within one single class of racing.
So imo, if PD was to implement 3 different (Hards, mediums, Softs) in each tyre model, I'd be happy.. But that's not the case.
As it stands, the various compounds is all over the place, and completely destroys how the different compounds should be used (in GT5).
I must end this post with:
I'm not at all trying to say that PD simulates the tyres perfectly, or even close to.. But Sport tyres in any form in GT5 are defenetly not the compound for a Super GT car.
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- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
I agree that it's not perfect, but if you would agree that the tires in general are too grippy, I don't understand why you would reject the idea of sports tires being realistic for GT500s. Sports soft at the very least, are easily realistic with that car. Sure, all tires for each series will be different but sim racing in general is an approximation, so I really don't understand why you're getting so nit picky with it. I've driven on slick tires in real life, and from my experience, sports mediums were most like the hard compounds I was on. The other cars I've raced in, had tires less grippy than their supposed counterparts in GT5.
You can disagree, but I'm sticking with the fact that if you want to simulate a certain tire in gt5, go down by one grade at least. I wanted to set up a race, not a debate
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- chorda / GTP_chorda
As I tryed to explain, you can not generalize like you do about the different compounds in GT5.. Reason is that a (i.e) Sport Medium tyre generates around 0,94 Latteral G's in game... No matter which car it's fiteed to, and no matter the cars tyre witdhs.. So the short explanation would be:
A BMW M3 CSL generates (i.e) 0,98 Latteral G's IRL on the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (Street legal Racing tyre) @ 285's in the rear, and 225's in the front, and the closest you get to that, is the Sport Medium tyre.
And on the other hand, we have the Ferrari F430 which generates 0,90 (i.e) Latteral G's IRL on the Pirelli PZero (Similar to Michelin Pilot Sport II / a high end street tyre) @ 285's in the rear and 225's in the front, and the closest to that, is the Sport Mediums.. again..
Because the tyre modelling is'nt specified enough.. So for some cars, as you say, a compound might be 1, or even 2 steps (in extrmeme cases) from what it comes with in GT5. But it's defenetly not something that always apply. And I maintain my opinion about Super GT's beeing most realistic on Racing Hards.
This is just my personal opinion ifc, and I'm entitled to it.. And so are you ofc. 👍
Peace
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- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
Well now it seems you're agreeing with me.
Like I said, it's not an exact science, and it is different depending on the car/situation, but I think we both can agree, the tires in the game overall are a little bit too grippy for what they're supposed to be.
I may not be right everytime but I tend to compensate for that by dropping the tires down by 1 or 2 grades, if anybody wants to race with that in mind, even if it isn't totally accurate for the car we use, message me.
Part of the reason I like to do racing cars with sports medium, even if they wouldn't use something like that in real life is because it seperates the boys from the men. The more challenging you make this sim, the more easily the level of competition is separated. One thing I love most about iracing, is it's so unforgiving that the skill of each driver is a bigger factor in determining the race than it would be otherwise. I want to get the same thing happening in GT5
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I totally understand why you would use Sport Mediums if you want to create a bigger challange. 👍
If so, I agree.
However, in the series I've participated in (Mostly Super GT series), we've run with Racing Hards since day 1.
In the beginning (late 2010, early 2011 as far as GT5 goes), Racing Softs was allowed in almost every SGT race hosed on here.
What've happened lately is that the more casual drivers have left the game on the bookshelf at home collecting dust while the more serious and hardcore drivers are still around (Probably until GT6 or any other title good enough is released) and creating series with a much more "true to life" theme.
If you go thru the series in the Racing Series section, you'll notice that very few series hosting race cars allow Racing Softs. Some allow Racing Mediums, but only for 1 stint a race just to spice the tactics up a bit which is a fun element.
I, my self however are not a fan of that, since the different tyres (Hards, Mediums, Softs) imo are for completely different car classes rather than transferd to hards, medium or softs for a single class of cars as I explained a few posts up.
And the series with street cars are in most cases run on Sport Hards (some cases Comfort Softs) which in most cases would transfer (Lateral G force-wise) to a high end Road Tyre (Michelin Pilot Sport II/III), or perhaps a street legal "slick" (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup).. But as I said, that depends on what car you chose for the race.
There's a thread somewhere in here where the real life lateral G's are compared to the various tyre types in GT5, and I tend to follow that when choosing tyres for a car.
Now, the difference is that I look at real life comparisons with lateral G's, and you go by "feel".. I'm not saying that either is the way to go, but I prefer to base my choices on real numbers instead of "feel", cause "feel" is not something I think translates good enough thru the screen with lack of g-forces, 2D vision and bad sounds. And last but nt least, the share lack of feel for the weight transfer.
I've owned an BMW M3 '05 CP for 2 years as a trackday/everyday car, and I've also driven the CSL version plenty of times IRL as well, I do however have a really hard time to say that they "feel" or don't "fell" like in real life in GT5, cause driving in real life is not comparabe at all with any sim/game out there imo.
So what this comes down to is how we as individuals chose to use what PD are giving to us. You do it your way, and I do it my way. No harm, no foul. 👍
Just 2 different approaches.
peace
EDIT: Found the thread I mentioned, and the one I use. 👍
I've uploaded a spreadsheet with the recommended tires to Google Docs:
GT5 Stock Tire Recommendations
*************
In an effort to figure out what is going on with GT5's tire models and which tires should go on which cars, I decided to do some skidpad testing. I used the 2010 Camaro SS and the Corvette ZR1, since I'm familiar with those cars and actual data is readily available.
We don't have an actual 200' skidpad to calculate lateral g force with in GT5, but what we do have is a g "meter" and a datalog. For the values I came up with, I created a delineated scale and taped it under the HUD g-force bar graph, and also used a scale against the datalog graph during replays as verification. The measurements were taken on the widest part of the TGTT, by turning a continuous steady-speed circle after warming the tires. Lateral g force was recorded up to the point where the car started to skid and could no longer hold the established circle. I also ran laps "on the edge" to verify the numbers, and repeated all the tests twice. (Note that I rounded the numbers to the nearest .05, due to my screen resolution).
My setup is a racing simulator chassis with a G25 wheel, and a Sony 50" HDTV. I ran each test with no aids and a manual tranny in "bumper" cam. (I hate that inaccurate view name).
First up was the Camaro, with comfort hard (CH) tires. I performed the test on each tire type, trying to be as consistent as possible. I only tested comfort and sport tires; once I got to the racing compounds the grip started getting ridiculous, and was beyond what I wanted to test with this setup.
Here are the numbers (Notice that each softer tire compound increases lateral acceleration by approximately .05g):
CH - .85
CM - .90
CS - .95
SH - 1.00
SM - 1.10
SS - 1.15
The real-life Camaro SS scores a 0.87 on R&T's skidpad test. So it would appear that CM tires would be closest to stock for the Camaro, based on lateral acceleration. (I'm going to the next higher number, just because).
Now for the 'vette numbers:
CH - .85
CM - .90
CS - .95
SH - 1.05
SM - 1.10
SS - 1.15
Virtually identical as far as the lateral acceleration numbers for each tire type. The real-life ZR1 scores a 1.10 on R&T's skidpad, so it would appear that SM tires would be the best stock equivalents for it.
Note: Just for reference, RH lateral g values were around 1.25, and RS were around 1.35 with the ZR1.
Here's where it starts getting weird. The real-life Camaro comes equipped with Pirelli P Zero tires, and the ZR1 comes with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 ZP tires. According to TireRack.com data sheets, both of these tires have identical speed rating (186+mph), tread wear (220), and traction rating (AA).
The only thing I can come up with to explain the unexpected test numbers is that the size of the contact patch is not figured into GT5's tire equations. In other words, to duplicate accurate lateral acceleration numbers for the ZR1, you have to use a softer tire compound to make up for the larger contact patch on the real-life car. (The 'vette has considerably more rubber on the road than the Camaro, especially in the rear).
So far it looks like each car would have to be tested independently to come up with the best GT5 tire type to simulate real life. I plan on doing some more as time permits, but it will be a slow process. First up will probably be one of the Ferrari's that come with the Pirelli P Zero's (599 I think?), so that we have a side-by-side comparison.
Thoughts?
*************
For those that are late to the party and want a quick summary:
My testing so far has revealed that the 9 tire types (CH, CM, CS, SH, SM, SS, RH, RM, RS) in GT5 form what appears to be a simple grip multiplier, with each tire type adding approximately .06g of lateral grip. The only thing that changes is where the scale starts for various cars. (i.e. for the ZR1, CH = .85g and for the '71 Cuda, CH = .80g). It also appears that the width of the tire is not being considered in the grip equations; for any specific tire type, the '02 Mini Cooper has the same amount of lateral grip as the '09 Corvette ZR1! And as softer tires are equipped, the amount of grip increases equally for both cars.
The implications of this are that in order to get close to IRL grip performance (based on lateral acceleration anyway), you have to equip different cars with different tires. As an example, just throwing sport mediums on all performance sports cars means nothing. One car may need CM tires to reproduce IRL performance numbers, while a very similar car may require SH tires.
Here are my "recommendations" for the cars I've tested so far (take it for what it's worth and do with it what will you will
Edit: See link at top
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Lukeydopeyus
(Banned)
- 30
I'm interested in this, usually I hosted a public lobby with as much realism as possible, just to weed out the dirty drivers .... besides my goal is for fun not just winning ...
Currently on the weekend, I hosted GTR R32,R33,R34 only lobby, tuning is prohibited, comfort soft - since CM got me so many complaints, no assists, fuel and tire wear, max penalty, no boost, low slipstream, no ABS/TCS, and 480PP max to ensure only street version GTR allowed.
This has resulted in some tight and thrilling races, usually around world circuit, Tsukuba, Laguna Seca, and Nurb, but sadly my lobby is so quiet .. 2 or 3 drivers in a race is about as many i can get
... most people would just leave after knowing the comfort soft and no ABS restrictions ...
Similar model generation race with similar performance like Subaru Impreza WRX GC series only, Honda Integras, MX5 NA/NB only, Silvia S13 / S14-S15 only,Lancer Evos I -III / IV - VIII, GTR R32 - 34, they are in my opinion are so much fun where drivers skill and luck plays a great part.
Racing with stock street cars are what GT is all about from the day it came in PSX, tuning and RM are just the bonus for me, in fact i thinks it's a lot harder to race stock street cars with similar power/weight ratio and add to that a focus on realism. Let me know when the race is up
Currently on the weekend, I hosted GTR R32,R33,R34 only lobby, tuning is prohibited, comfort soft - since CM got me so many complaints, no assists, fuel and tire wear, max penalty, no boost, low slipstream, no ABS/TCS, and 480PP max to ensure only street version GTR allowed.
This has resulted in some tight and thrilling races, usually around world circuit, Tsukuba, Laguna Seca, and Nurb, but sadly my lobby is so quiet .. 2 or 3 drivers in a race is about as many i can get
... most people would just leave after knowing the comfort soft and no ABS restrictions ...Similar model generation race with similar performance like Subaru Impreza WRX GC series only, Honda Integras, MX5 NA/NB only, Silvia S13 / S14-S15 only,Lancer Evos I -III / IV - VIII, GTR R32 - 34, they are in my opinion are so much fun where drivers skill and luck plays a great part.
Racing with stock street cars are what GT is all about from the day it came in PSX, tuning and RM are just the bonus for me, in fact i thinks it's a lot harder to race stock street cars with similar power/weight ratio and add to that a focus on realism. Let me know when the race is up
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