Mercedes Sauber C9 - Uncontrollable

[Timm]

Hi Guys, Need some help here please. Now this might just be me but I am finding the Sauber very hard to control especially on corners. The braking I'm find very hard to control. Most of my cars are from the Group 4 so this being a group C might be the reason. The setting I have on default but would I need to alter the Brake Balance or what? I dont use bop on this car either. So if I need to alter ther Brake balance what would the best setting for it.

 

[CJ1045]

Brake earlier in a straight line before the corner. These older cars the brakes are not so good. The group C cars take a lot of skill and practice to drive them fast. In a straight line they are faster than the modern prototypes (at least in GTS) but they are tough to get around corners well.

CJ

 

[Timm]

Brake earlier in a straight line before the corner. These older cars the brakes are not so good. The group C cars take a lot of skill and practice to drive them fast. In a straight line they are faster than the modern prototypes (at least in GTS) but they are tough to get around corners well.

CJ

Thanks for that.

 

[zortation]

Notching the brake balance to the rear helps. I find it hard to control LMP cars, I think it has something to do with the insane torque and acceleration these cars have.

 

[ARTAsean]

I think the Group C cars offer the best driving experience in the game. I will concede the brakes are noticeably worse than the modern Gr.1 cars, but not excessively so. I certainly don't have this issue, but without seeing a video it's hard to know where you're going wrong.

If I had to guess I would say you're cooking it into the braking zone and not trail braking. I'm also assuming you're using CSA, which absolutely does cause understeer on corner entry. Try disabling that.

 

[KinLM]

I think the Group C cars offer the best driving experience in the game. I will concede the brakes are noticeably worse than the modern Gr.1 cars, but not excessively so. I certainly don't have this issue, but without seeing a video it's hard to know where you're going wrong.

If I had to guess I would say you're cooking it into the braking zone and not trail braking. I'm also assuming you're using CSA, which absolutely does cause understeer on corner entry. Try disabling that.

Brake earlier in a straight line before the corner. These older cars the brakes are not so good. The group C cars take a lot of skill and practice to drive them fast. In a straight line they are faster than the modern prototypes (at least in GTS) but they are tough to get around corners well.

CJ

The brakes are not what is “bad.”

GTSport does not even model different braking performances (as far as I can tell, based on the fact that every car in the game can lock the tires easily). There isn’t even any brake fade.

What’s ‘worse’ about a Group C car is that it has way less downforce than modern LMP cars. So, you arrive at corners much faster, and then have:
a) less drag to slow you down (due to the lower downforce)
b) less mechanical grip (ALSO due to the lower downforce) to allow the brakes to work before locking up the tires, meaning ABS kicks in sooner and you don’t get as “high” of a maximum braking force as a result.


I see so many people say “(some) car has bad brakes in GTSport” when that’s not the case at all in this game.

I promise you that, when in operating temperature, a Sauber C9s brakes can definitely stop the car as hard if you fit a modern LMP’s brakes to it. The brakes are not the limiting factor in the system.

I’m only saying this because I believe it’s VERY important to understand WHY certain cars are faster/slower in different aspects than others.

If you understand what causes them to be faster or slower, you can use that to your advantage.

In this case, knowing that the Sauber will have very high straight line speeds due to such low downforce and low drag, but much less braking grip, and lower required cornering speeds, may help you plan how to use it more effectively; maybe you can increase the downforce. Maybe only use it at tracks with long straights. Maybe leave more room for braking, and don’t worry if LMP cars pull away through the twisty sections.

Thinking that it’s just down to the car having “bad brakes” is very misleading and makes it harder to come up with potential solutions to increasing your pace in the car.

 

[ARTAsean]

The brakes are not what is “bad.”

GTSport does not even model different braking performances (as far as I can tell, based on the fact that every car in the game can lock the tires easily). There isn’t even any brake fade.

What’s ‘worse’ about a Group C car is that it has way less downforce than modern LMP cars. So, you arrive at corners much faster, and then have:
a) less drag to slow you down (due to the lower downforce)
b) less mechanical grip (ALSO due to the lower downforce) to allow the brakes to work before locking up the tires, meaning ABS kicks in sooner and you don’t get as “high” of a maximum braking force as a result.


I see so many people say “(some) car has bad brakes in GTSport” when that’s not the case at all in this game.

I promise you that, when in operating temperature, a Sauber C9s brakes can definitely stop the car as hard if you fit a modern LMP’s brakes to it. The brakes are not the limiting factor in the system.

I’m only saying this because I believe it’s VERY important to understand WHY certain cars are faster/slower in different aspects than others.

If you understand what causes them to be faster or slower, you can use that to your advantage.

In this case, knowing that the Sauber will have very high straight line speeds due to such low downforce and low drag, but much less braking grip, and lower required cornering speeds, may help you plan how to use it more effectively; maybe you can increase the downforce. Maybe only use it at tracks with long straights. Maybe leave more room for braking, and don’t worry if LMP cars pull away through the twisty sections.

Thinking that it’s just down to the car having “bad brakes” is very misleading and makes it harder to come up with potential solutions to increasing your pace in the car.

Without posting a video / screenshots of an LMP and Gr.C braking from the same speed, this is pure conjecture. And until you do so, I will treat it as such. Otherwise, you're trying a "gotcha" with a semantic argument.

 

[KinLM]

Without posting a video / screenshots of an LMP and Gr.C braking from the same speed, this is pure conjecture. And until you do so, I will treat it as such.

No it isn’t. It’s basic physics. I’m sure somebody else can verify this too.

Even if I posted the “proof” you requested, what would that prove? The Sauber will take longer to brake regardless.

If you want to believe that the brakes are actually the issue with the Sauber, despite the fact that they can lock the wheels at any speed, then I am sorry but I don’t think there’s any way I can explain it or prove it to you.

 

[ARTAsean]

No it isn’t.

wew lad.

Do you even know what conjecture is?

- an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

Let me refresh your memory:

GTSport does not even model different braking performances (as far as I can tell)

Unfortunately for you, this is a textbook example of conjecture.

Since you're learn-ed in conjecture now, let's see how familiar you are with Burden of Proof. You made a claim (GT Sport doesn't have coded brake performances) and now the Burden of Proof is on you to prove that you're correct.

I simply asked you for a video or screenshot, which you're unwilling to produce. Which makes the rest of your post a word salad. Further evidenced by the fact that you finished with wild accusations, such as, I'm unaware and/or unskilled in the phyciscs of GT Sport and piloting the C9.

So again, I say to you sir, this is wild conjecture and to add to it, grandstanding.

 

[coryclifford]

The Sauber stops like ****, sounds good though. Try ABS on weak.

787 is great, until you push it.

Go drive them against an LMP1 car.

 

[KinLM]

wew lad.

Do you even know what conjecture is?

- an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

Let me refresh your memory:



Unfortunately for you, this is a textbook example of conjecture.

Since you're learn-ed in conjecture now, let's see how familiar you are with Burden of Proof. You made a claim (GT Sport doesn't have coded brake performances) and now the Burden of Proof is on you to prove that you're correct.

I simply asked you for a video or screenshot, which you're unwilling to produce. Which makes the rest of your post a word salad. Further evidenced by the fact that you finished with wild accusations, such as, I'm unaware and/or unskilled in the phyciscs of GT Sport and piloting the C9.

So again, I say to you sir, this is wild conjecture and to add to it, grandstanding.

Except it isn’t. It’s the laws of physics that the maximum braking force possible is reached at the limit of grip of the tires, provided the brakes are capable of reaching said limit (which is the case with EVERY car I’ve driven in GTSport.)

The brakes in every car in GTSport can reach this threshold. You can test this for yourself. It’s a regression from past GTs actually, where there would be options to upgrade the brakes, and where the stock brakes weren’t so damn powerful.

The Sauber has less grip than modern LMPs in the game. This is evident by how much faster it is in a straight line, how much slower it is in corners, and how much longer the relative braking distance is.

Let me put it to you this way; does the Tomahawk X have amazing deceleration capabilities because of the brakes? No (well, yes technically, since any real brakes wouldn’t enjoy stopping from 400MPH consistently, but also no.)

It’s because of all of the air brakes and aerodynamic devices adding downforce and drag, allowing the car to have massive grip available for braking, as well as being slowed by the additional drag from all of the moving winglets.

This aerodynamic effect is ESPECIALLY obvious when looking at how “normal” the Tomahawk X brakes at lower speeds (say, under 100) when there isn’t enough air moving over the car for the winglets and air brakes to produce any real effect.

This same logic applies to the Sauber versus a more modern LMP car.

I don’t see why I should have to prove this when it’s pretty obvious that GTSport simulates these factors quite well. You can play the game for 10 minutes with any of these high downforce cars and notice how differently they drive as a result.

If you feel personally attacked then I am sorry. I’m simply trying to be informative on a common misconception I see on here. If you’d rather just put it down to “the brakes suck on the Sauber” and are unwilling to listen to anything I have to say, then I’m afraid I can’t help you regardless of any videos or screenshots I post.

 

[ShiftingGears]

You'd be kidding yourself if you thought a group C car is going to have comparable braking to a Prototype made 25 years later.

 

[KinLM]

You'd be kidding yourself if you thought a group C car is going to have comparable braking to a Prototype made 25 years later.

Thats not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the brakes themselves are not the reason why.

Hell, the Sauber brakes don’t NEED to be as powerful even, because the maximum amount of force they could ever usefully put out would be far lower than on a modern LMP due to the reasons I’ve already written 10 paragraphs about.

 

[KinLM]

@ShiftingGears @ARTAsean @coryclifford I’m going to link to a video that I think might help explain this better slightly.

Start at around 2:30 and you’ll get a crystal clear definition. Or you can watch the entire video for more context.



If this doesn’t help then maybe somebody smart like @Scaff can explain it in a better way than I can.

Again, I just think it’s important to understand the forces at play, so you know what changes you can make to rectify issues you might have with a car, in this instance the Sauber.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Thats not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the brakes themselves are not the reason why.

Hell, the Sauber brakes don’t NEED to be as powerful even, because the maximum amount of force they could ever usefully put out would be far lower than on a modern LMP due to the reasons I’ve already written 10 paragraphs about.

I was talking braking power in real life. Yes downforce is a big factor, all that means is that you'd need to see the handling code from PD to see if braking coefficients vary from car to car (which they almost certainly do).

 

[fastone371]

You'd be kidding yourself if you thought a group C car is going to have comparable braking to a Prototype made 25 years later.

As far as pure braking force cast rotors with high end metallic brake pads are still pretty effective even though they have been around for decades. Sure carbon/carbon brakes are lighter but they really dont offer greater stopping force. The real gains in brakes over the last 30 years is weight loss, ability to absorb more heat, and less fade but as far as pure stopping force that comes down to tire adhesion.