Microsoft Wheel MSFF Annoying Steering Aid.

[kamkor]

Hi,

I've always felt there was a problem with forza when it came to agressivness of drift transitions. The issue that the car wouldn't really flick the other way if I made a stupid mistake (for example GT5 demo does flick the other way too much, while Live For Speed has it pretty much spot on, while in forza 3...).

So here's the problem:

When using msff steering wheel, the game recovers slides by itself enough to eliminate the "flick the other way" and pendulum effect.

Example: In real life when the inexperienced driver oversteers, countersteers too much, then rear tires regain grip, the car will/might flick the other way. This what is a mistake by unexperienced drivers can be used by drifters to make their transitions more agressive, in forza 3 it just does not work. Because forza 3 will then start returning wheel to the center even if you hold the wheel still. You can still "flick the other way" (more like change direction in a smooth way) by forcing it with throttle or just keeping the steering turned, but it is very weird and feels weird. Why weird? I will explain:

msff countersteer: constant at xxx degrees.
1) rear tires: over the peak. Ingame wheel: not linear, but direct to msff.

2) rear tires: about to regain the grip (become green). Ingame wheel: starts returning to the center (msff still at the same position, constant countersteer).

3) rear tires: already gripping. Ingame wheel: countersteer reduced in 2).

So during oversteer situation we hold the wheel at one position. But in-game countersteer changes the amount of countersteer when rear tires are about to catch grip to help the player avoid losing control (flicking the other way).

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You can see it both ingame, and both in replays (especially easy seen in slow motion). For example take a race car. Start a drift, hold a wheel at XXX degrees. Let off the throttle and wait for rear tires to catch the grip. Repeat the process a few times. Then go to replay, turn on the telemetry and see what happens with in-game wheel when rear tires regain grip. And remember that you were holding your actual wheel at one position not letting it return to the center.

Here's exactly what happens in telemetry:
Car catches a slide, rear tires have lost their grip (are over the peak). When they are about to regain traction (become green in telemetry) the in-game steering will start shaking left and right, while returning slowly to the center, making sure that the car won't flick the other way (as it would have caused the pendulum effect).
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I tried to present this problem on forza forums, but it seems to be a lost cause. No one is really interested. :/

 

[Raitziger]

I posted a video to youtube about unrealistic grip in forza and about steering buffer. It did not take long before some xbot apared and hit me with some nasty words on all of my videos(unrelated to forza).

Steering buffer demonstration

 

[kamkor]

Thanks for the videos. I will post it on forza forums where I presented the problem, since so far people have been ofcourse trying to find a "realistic" explanation to why forza is right and why I am wrong. The correction you speak about in video is exactly what I'm talking about in thread opener.

Anyway, is there really linear 720/900 degrees in forza 3 with steering buffer off? So far I haven't seen any evidence. :/

p.s.: Hovewer as far as grip is concerned I think it is pretty close to real life considering the car has good new tires. Live for speed has too little grip. Cars are easier to get to drift in live for speed than my 325i with 3-5mm used tires (185/60/14). Try drifting the car in more realistic situation. A slower course, 2nd gear drifting in parking lot, or even 3rd gear. It will be pretty good. What you're doing is trying to drift a stock car on very fast course that requires 3rd, 4th and 5th gear and also has banked corners.

Ae86 made to spec weight/power ratio and tuned similar to my 325i on benchmark car lot on courses similar to which I drifted in real life was pretty damn close grip wise.

 

[Raitziger]

It is very strange that even insidesimracing guys do not talk about this feature or problem. Forza normal tyres also have too much grip; they are like racing r1 tires in GT games.
It was easy to say that physics of the game were realistic when there was no real competion in consoles or even same cars on pc games.

 

[Jay]

Wow Raitziger you sure did get a nasty comment response on youtube.

 

[kamkor]

Forza normal tyres also have too much grip; they are like racing r1 tires in GT games.

And what experience do you have with slick tires in real life? It would sound better if you said that forza normal tires are like slick tires in real life, and are they?

All I know is that live for speed on street tires slides more than it should, which i explained in my previous post.

It's also hard to completly judge forza tires thanks to this utter ******** steering aid that is always on, which prevents tires from some "bite".

 

[Raitziger]

I might be wrong that i say forza has too much grip(vs reality) but there is no low grip tire options like in GT games. What im saying is that if you want to find most basics tyres for cars forza is nowhere comprabale to N class tyres in GT games.

Again this is only opininon and be free to think otherways

I think we can agree about steering help thing already.

It would sound better if you said that forza normal tires are like slick tires in real life, and are they?

I agree 100%. Different way of saying the same thing.

edit: I have not driven true slics in real life but there was semi slicks in one old rally escort that griped like glue

 

[kamkor]

You could also try increasing tire pressure in rear. The effect is pretty realistic.

I think we can agree about steering help thing already.

Very very much. I bought a wheel expecting that I will get aids free experience.. And really all I got is the ability to have drifting with smooth countersteer that looks good (as much better than countersteer pad fapping) on replays. Driving wise I could as well just stick to a pad. Eh.

 

[Raitziger]

With pad forza feels very nice to drive but "pad controls" are not a good idea for realistic wheel.

 

[A Name]

That steering buffer is, in my opinion, the worst thing ever to put in a racing game with steering wheel compatibility.

I remember when I first tried Test Drive Unlimited with a wheel. The game was close to impossible to play because the cars would just steer any way they wanted. You had no own opinion at all.

Have anyone tried a Fanatec wheel? I'm curious to know if it's the same thing there, or if it just happens with the MSFF wheel.

 

[A Name]

I'm sorry, Raitziger, I didn't notice that you used a Fanatec wheel in your video. Stupid me.

I'm actually kind of disappointed that it's the same for the Fanatec wheels. I was really impressed by them and actually considered buying one just for Forza. But then Forza makes the most stupid implementation ever, which just about ruins all the fun of the sim-with-a-wheel-combo.

 

[chromatic9]

From an interview with Dan Greenawalt

I've also seen the steering lock reduce just before the tyres retain grip.

The oscillating also happens when you pass through the steering center when driving slowly left to right without causing any tyre slipping or tyre noise.

 

[Nigo]

well, obviously, Dan :
_has a exagerated concept of "much more exactly". What we wanted was EXACTLY
_has a weird concept of gamepad gameplay. I don't know for you, but even with the pad, I'm trying to tip-toe, and I feel insulted with his "full left", "full right"... Did he forget the stick was analogic ? Now I know why F3 sucks with a pad !!

trying to read the player mind = making it worse

It is very strange that even insidesimracing guys do not talk about this feature or problem

when will we stop giving these guys credit ? seriously... I'm not a big fan (expect for Jessica ) but for what I've seen he seems to be happy with everything he tries
by the way, your wheel is great. Get yourself Race Pro, Shift (which is far from perfect but has a much better car control) or some PC sims and you'll be a happy man

 

[TrievelA7X]

I can't really tell with the video, but it looks like it's just basically steering lag. Like they decided to make you wait and make sure you really want to turn that way now.
I've played some other games with that kind of delay/lag, and it's one of the most annoying things I've ever tried to deal with.

 

[bevo]

I've noticed switching from forza 3 to the GT5 demo, that it's like going from COD to socom. You really notice all of the extra aids involved with forza 3 just like the aiming assists in COD. Whenever I go back to socom after COD it's almost impossible to shoot anyone because the game is not aiming for you like in COD.

I went back and tried to play GT5 demo awhile back again after going with forza 3 for a few weeks, and it took me 15 laps to even be able to make a decent lap. GT and socom really show you how much the other 2 games cater to people who want an arcade experience where everything is fast and in your face no matter how bad you are at those types of games.

 

[kamkor]

I noticed the funniest thing lately. Played forza 3 with a pad and checked what aids are there in comparision to wheel. So:

wheel and pad aids:
- The ingame wheel will help you countersteer just enough to catch the slide. Won't matter if you countersteer a little bit too little or too much. Hovewer, this aid is not much of an issue.

pad aid:
- Game will not allow you to induce understeer by continuing to turn too much into the corner. It's not really an issue for me again. With wheel I never really steer too much into the corner unless I want to induce the understeer, which is usefull in for example F1 car in live for speed when recovering from slide.

wheel aid:
- When rear tires are about to catch the grip, in-game wheel steers itself into the center to recover from slide/drift. It does so in a "clicky way" (the movement isn't smooth like you can see in Raitziger second video posted earlier in this thread). This unforunately is very annoying and during mistake slide recovery (not drifting) it makes me feel very unconnected with the car. Also I believe it makes ffb akward, because of the not smooth movement of the aid - ffb feels clicky when it happens.


And what does it all mean? It means that you will feel more connected with the car in forza 3 when playing with pad. Also pad experience is less aided as the game doesn't recover from slides by itself like it does with a wheel.

 

[Chagen46]

Guys, the reason this aid shows up even when using a wheel is because the 360 can't distinguish whether you're using the wheel or not. Seriously, that's it.

But, of course all the idiotic PS3 fanboys immediately jumped on this....some people are pathetic.

 

[TBR 427]

From an interview with Dan Greenawalt

I've also seen the steering lock reduce just before the tyres retain grip.

The oscillating also happens when you pass through the steering center when driving slowly left to right without causing any tyre slipping or tyre noise.

inb4 slowpoke.jpg

anyone got a source on that interview? I want to watch the whole thing.

 

[chromatic9]

inb4 slowpoke.jpg

anyone got a source on that interview? I want to watch the whole thing.

It's from an internet magazine and you'll have to read it.

http://www.autosimsport.net/index2/index.php Volume 5 Issue 3

Interview with Dan Greenawalt of Turn 10 - Page 75

 

[phil-t]

Although I totally agree that FM3 does apply some 'processing' to the steering when the car starts to slide, I really think people are just making such a huge deal out of it (IMO).

All driving games physics engines will have lots of 'tweaks' in lots of situations to give the desired effect the designer wants, however 99% of the time you just don't 'see' any evidence of this, it's done internally.. If they removed any evidence of the tweak so that it didn't appear in the telemetry or visual engine, but was kept in the physics engine, no one would have brought this up.

This does feel more like a last minute addition though, as if they where getting feedback at a late stage that snap oversteer in some conditions was too severe and impinged on the racing too much (small mistake = total 360 = race as good as over), and a bit of a sticky plaster was put on it to tweak it to be a little less severe.

No game will give you 'un-aided/direct' physics as such, you just normally don't get to see any visual clues to the trickery employed in the underlying phsyics engines.

In addition, little gets said about the speed sensitive aspect of the steering, as speed builds, the steering sensitivity decreases, it's plainly visible in the telemetry, and it does 'dampen' deliberate large steering input attempts at speed, something you occasional want to do (sudden weight transfer to align with a sudden road camber change)..

Can anyone honestly say that any driving game has a fixed physics system that does not have deliberate non-linearities that are not reasonably well known about even using a wheel?

All IMO of course.

 

[Timppaq]

No game will give you 'un-aided/direct' physics...

All IMO of course.

Would be interesting to know how have you come to such strong conclusion that you feel confident about posting that public? Just curious.

 

[phil-t]

Would be interesting to know how have you come to such strong conclusion that you feel confident about posting that public? Just curious.

It's more stating an obvious side effect of the simulation of physics on current hardware.

There are many approximations required and many variables are not accounted for or accurately accounted for, hence there are many many situations where the base 'model' diverges from the reality.

I'm 100% confident in stating that if you where to just release the output of the base physics calculations/models, the game would exhibit some pretty unwanted behaviour compared to real life in many different situations.

Developers have to inevitably put additional code to handle these divergences, and also there is some artistic licence when it comes to tweaking certain parameters to give a specific handling characteristic that they are aiming for.

All I am saying is that all physics engines are 'tweaked' to one degree or another to reduce the effect of inevitable divergencies from reality and to fit the developers desired handling feel. Inevitably all physics engines have some elements that can be construed as 'aids', It's just that normally you get no easy visual feedback to alert you to their exact nature.

Had T10 made their steering effect non visible to the user, in the sense that you never saw the steering wheel/road wheels move visually, people may complain that the cars transition to oversteer is a bit unrealistically soft, but would have hardly battered an eyelid to it, as all games have non ideal tendencies..

I'm not defending the games steering 'aid', but I'm saying categorically that all games have lots of 'aids/tweaks' applied around the raw physics for very obvious reasons, so this notion of having absolutely no aids what so ever is a little bit of a fallacy.

 

[chromatic9]

If they removed any evidence of the tweak so that it didn't appear in the telemetry or visual engine, but was kept in the physics engine, no one would have brought this up.

Not really. People have posted the game feels aided more so than other driving sims before seeing it. The general oversteer and mid-engine car behavior, experience in driving and using other sims show this.

 

[phil-t]

Not really. People have posted the game feels aided more so than other driving sims before seeing it. The general oversteer and mid-engine car behavior, experience in driving and using other sims show this.

I don't disagree that some elements seem to be more 'safe' then they possibly could be, so I won't be arguing against that at all

However, although I can see why people say it's a big deal for them, I don't personally have the same opinion..

I've had more time with FM3 then I expected (for obvious reasons, still can't wait for GT5 like the rest of the sites visitors), and have substantially upped my game as such. When driving more competitively, or going for good leaderboard times, I just hardly ever get into situations where I encounter the steering 'aid', of when I inevitably do get into this situation, am I hung up that it doesn't punish me harder then already losing a bucketful of time? No.. That's my personal opinion.

I'm not trying to get into some argument over FM3, because I have no strong opinion or hang up over it, or any other game for that matter, I just play them and although I notice lots of good/bad things, I just accept the game as an overall package and try to have fun with it.

 

[TBR 427]

I don't think it's a big deal to the average Forza 3 player. Like GT and what not, the average player is what we'd call casual. They're the people who'll be using GT's standard physics, etc. You get the idea. But most importantly, they'll be using a normal 360/ps3 controller.

Now, to them the notion that a car can and should snap back violently and in cases uncontrollably is something that's considered bad. And from a gameplay perspective, it is bad. It's what seen as an unnecessary loss of control for the player.
They're fine with it, it means they go faster, easier, and for them it's fun.

A lot of people here, however, turn off the assists. It's a challenge and reward thing; can I master this beast of a car without any electronics. We are the (relatively) hardcore userbase. We play these games drastically differently to the casuals.

Now, the problem is that with this steering aid, it's always there. It's just part of the steering mapping, we can't do any more about it that we can do with the fact that cars usually use the front wheels to steer.

And because of that, it's a critical (to us) level of challenge that's been nerf'd completely. I think I speak for many when I say we want that added challenge of coming out of a drift smoothly by our own skill, not the programming that helps the cars out currently.

The really sad thing is that in an effort to appeal to the casuals more, they've completely alienated the hardcore users. That this driving aid is still in effect when I have a Porsche GT3 Fanatec wheel plugged in and I'm racing a GT3 around the ring is horrible. I don't use that setup to drive that car around that track to have something give me a helping hand. I do it for the opposite; for the thrill and rush of nailing it by myself. But I can't get that helping hand off the wheel, so it kinda kills it for me and a lot of other users.


Someone further up the page asked about a game without this kind of steering aid. I suggest they (and everyone else, actually), look into Supercar Challenge. It may not be the prettiest game (but it's not ugly), and the car list may not be a mile long (though you'll find something you love), but it has the best steering in any video game known to man. The force feedback is sublime, the weight feels wonderful.

But it does a similar thing with the assists for controller users to Forza. But better; they're more transparent, less noticeable and more in line with the steering in Prologue. It's not obtrusive and it certainly can't be used to save your bacon. I'm not joking, this game has some of the least forgiving physics of all time. The difficulty curve is one huge spike of you doing the learner level in a McLaren F1 around the nurburgring. Really, that's the first training level. And it's a 3 lap time trial.

 

[phil-t]

I don't think it's a big deal to the average Forza 3 player. Like GT and what not, the average player is what we'd call casual. They're the people who'll be using GT's standard physics, etc. You get the idea. But most importantly, they'll be using a normal 360/ps3 controller.

Now, to them the notion that a car can and should snap back violently and in cases uncontrollably is something that's considered bad. And from a gameplay perspective, it is bad. It's what seen as an unnecessary loss of control for the player.
They're fine with it, it means they go faster, easier, and for them it's fun.

A lot of people here, however, turn off the assists. It's a challenge and reward thing; can I master this beast of a car without any electronics. We are the (relatively) hardcore userbase. We play these games drastically differently to the casuals.

Now, the problem is that with this steering aid, it's always there. It's just part of the steering mapping, we can't do any more about it that we can do with the fact that cars usually use the front wheels to steer.

And because of that, it's a critical (to us) level of challenge that's been nerf'd completely. I think I speak for many when I say we want that added challenge of coming out of a drift smoothly by our own skill, not the programming that helps the cars out currently.

The really sad thing is that in an effort to appeal to the casuals more, they've completely alienated the hardcore users. That this driving aid is still in effect when I have a Porsche GT3 Fanatec wheel plugged in and I'm racing a GT3 around the ring is horrible. I don't use that setup to drive that car around that track to have something give me a helping hand. I do it for the opposite; for the thrill and rush of nailing it by myself. But I can't get that helping hand off the wheel, so it kinda kills it for me and a lot of other users.


Someone further up the page asked about a game without this kind of steering aid. I suggest they (and everyone else, actually), look into Supercar Challenge. It may not be the prettiest game (but it's not ugly), and the car list may not be a mile long (though you'll find something you love), but it has the best steering in any video game known to man. The force feedback is sublime, the weight feels wonderful.

But it does a similar thing with the assists for controller users to Forza. But better; they're more transparent, less noticeable and more in line with the steering in Prologue. It's not obtrusive and it certainly can't be used to save your bacon. I'm not joking, this game has some of the least forgiving physics of all time. The difficulty curve is one huge spike of you doing the learner level in a McLaren F1 around the nurburgring. Really, that's the first training level. And it's a 3 lap time trial.

Be careful about pigeon holing people, This isnt really purely about hardcore, if you are finding it constantly interfering, I'd say its your driving style that is at odds with it.

For more serious racing/hotlapping, its about conserving momentum, and not getting it in to snap oversteer at every opportunity.

Still, you think that they'd allow a less forgiving mode to cater for all peoples desires.

 

[TBR 427]

Well yes my style is at odds with it - I know what oversteer is. And I'm sure this thing would kick in and be somewhat noticeable (on some level) to everyone else who knows what oversteer is.


Don't get me wrong, I don't drive like a tool then complain when it doesn't snap back (though I do drift occasionally in forza). But when going full throttle on a hot lap, inevitably it's kicking in a fair bit and it's annoying.

More importantly, why is this aid permanent? I mean, you'd at least think they'd kill it for wheel users completely and have it as an option for the pad users?

 

[phil-t]

Well yes my style is at odds with it - I know what oversteer is. And I'm sure this thing would kick in and be somewhat noticeable (on some level) to everyone else who knows what oversteer is.


Don't get me wrong, I don't drive like a tool then complain when it doesn't snap back (though I do drift occasionally in forza). But when going full throttle on a hot lap, inevitably it's kicking in a fair bit and it's annoying.

More importantly, why is this aid permanent? I mean, you'd at least think they'd kill it for wheel users completely and have it as an option for the pad users?

I totally agree that the option to 'turn it off' would be the way forward, or toned down to be less intrusive, then it caters for all.. But clearly they prefer a one size fits all approach, some games give you the ability to tweak this type of thing, I guess it's down to the game director at the end of the day. Hopefully peoples highlighting of it as an issue for them might have an effect in the future.

I have been getting much quicker, and the closer I've been heading towards top 10 times, the smoother and more controlled I've been getting, so I really don't find it that intrusive or even kicking in at all, I'd have to be driving a bit ragged and certainly not 'quickly' before it would possibly kick in..
And even then, clearly some people want to drive a little ragged (nothing wrong in that), but then when you do overcook it, you are already losing time, do you want it to lose you even more time by not softening the effect? I guess some do, some don't..

 

[kamkor]

phil-t: You might as well use all other aids and say they don't bother you, because if you go perfect enough, they won't affect you.

For those who are not only into hot lapping I'm sure it is an issue. I hold the steering wheel that I bought thinking there would be no aids like this. I don't want the game to sudennly disconnect me from the game, taking the control away from me.

Also try doing a nice fast slalom on optimum slip angle with that aid. Pretty horrible and unconnected experience.

Or try doing fast one after one drift transitions. It all feels "slowed down" and unconnected.

 

[phil-t]

phil-t: You might as well use all other aids and say they don't bother you, because if you go perfect enough, they won't affect you.

For those who are not only into hot lapping I'm sure it is an issue. I hold the steering wheel that I bought thinking there would be no aids like this. I don't want the game to sudennly disconnect me from the game, taking the control away from me.

Also try doing a nice fast slalom on optimum slip angle with that aid. Pretty horrible and unconnected experience.

Or try doing fast one after one drift transitions. It all feels "slowed down" and unconnected.

I'm not going to defend it, I just am not that bothered by it, I race and hotlap quite a lot, compared to the rest of the physics, this doesn't hardly register for me.

I'm sure it annoys people, and clearly their are better games out there for some people, but I'm a competent driver in FM3, and don't get this disconnected feeling of not being in control, a lot of cars I drive get massive amounts of oversteer at times, slide around nicely and feel quite well balanced, I guess I must be lucky!

Things can always be improved of course!