More GM Rumors: Pontiac G6 and G5 to go RWD

[YSSMAN]

General Motors has cancelled development of its planned next-generation front-wheel-drive Pontiac G6, according to a report published today. It is believed GM will instead replace the G6 for the 2010 model year with a rear-wheel-drive model of some description.

According to enthusiasts website GMInsidenews, the second-generation G6 was originally planned to be built on a redesigned Epsilon II (E2) platform. While the existing front-drive G6 has been reasonably successful, it seems General Motors wants its Pontiac division to be more competitive with the likes of BMW.

GM is also rumored to be considering replacing its badge-engineered G5 coupe with a compact RWD car in the next several years. The rumors add credibility to an Automotive News report from May suggesting Pontiac might make all its vehicles rear-wheel drive in the future.

This certainly is interesting news to say the least, and it certainly points towards a very promising future for Pontiac as a sporting brand. If indeed this is true, the G6 would be setting its sights on the 3-series, that seems pretty clear. As for the G5 going RWD, well, that clearly would be attempting to be a preemptive strike on the 1-series, should it ever come to the US.

I do have to question what platform is going where as well. Obviously the G8 is going to reside on the Zeta platform with the Commodore, Impala, etc. This would probably confirm that GM is working on a sub-Zeta, and sub-Sigma chassis to better match BMW and Mercedes, and that indeed is good news. You do have to wonder what will come of it, and just how modern it will be... Hopefully with lots of aluminum and an IRS out back...

As for the G5 with RWD, my best guess is that GM gets smart, and modifies the Kappa platform for a larger model. Very cool indeed, as it would keep things cheap, keep things fairly light, and would be just the right size to be a reasonable car. I'm crossing my fingers that the G5 replacement comes first, as it sounds like a ton of fun, but chances are, the G6 will show up first.

 

[Poverty]

Bob Lutz decisions taking form!

 

[Jim Prower]

Cheap, lightweight rear-drive....

What took you so long?

 

[Swift]

OK, I don't see a G6 coming close to a BMW in terms of, well everything.

But I do see a reasonably priced, sporty, RWD sedan/coupe on my radar for a car in that time frame.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Well I think the 3-series is the target in terms of design and performance, but presumably Pontiac doesn't have the stones to go after them on a car-by-car basis. I'd kinda think of it in the same way Toyota wanted to target the 350Z with the X-Runner, which they came really close, but no one in their right mind would ever cross-shop the two. Pontiac would be better suited to go after a low-lying luxury brand like Acura or maybe Infiniti, but BMW is just a bit too high up on the food chain. But hey, if they want to follow the same basic ideas, I'm not going to complain one bit!

More than anything, Pontiac just wants to be the "excitement" brand again at GM. Now that they are partnered in a group with Buick and GMC (similar to Ford's groupings of Land Rover, Aston Martin, etc.), they won't have to worry about building big semi-luxury boats like the Bonneville, as that would be left to Buick, and they won't have to worry about small SUVs, as that would be left to GMC.

 

[Swift]

More than anything, Pontiac just wants to be the "excitement" brand again at GM. Now that they are partnered in a group with Buick and GMC (similar to Ford's groupings of Land Rover, Aston Martin, etc.), they won't have to worry about building big semi-luxury boats like the Bonneville, as that would be left to Buick, and they won't have to worry about small SUVs, as that would be left to GMC.

That makes very good sense to me. It would be nice to see some excitement from Pontiac again.

Basically, Chevy tends to steal all of that with the vette and camaro. So, hopefully Pontiac can pull something out.

 

[harrytuttle]

I've also been wondering what's been taking so long, but who really started it? What was the real catalyst for this massive change in US manufacturer's thinking? My first guess was Chrysler, being able to use the old E-Class platform after the merger. The huge success of the 300/Magnum/etc. has to have lots of sway among Ford and GM.

Another possibility that crossed my mind was Nissan (Infiniti). Their recent success with rear-wheel-drive is a near-total 180 in their thinking. The 300ZX died out, the 240SX/Silvia was long gone, and the only rear-drive car from Infiniti was the high-end Q45. When the 2002 G35 (and 350Z) arrived, it took the market by storm: a solid alternative to the 3-Series, much more fun than the C-Class, and a good deal cheaper than both. And now the M35/M45 is doing well, too. Sort a proof-of-concept that the public really liked rear-wheel-drive. GM & Ford were still strong on SUVs through 2004, and only now are both of them deep into rear-drive planning.

Strangely, it's not as though any of these companies didn't have rear-drive cars in their lineup. They seemed to simply lose popularity. Even recent forays were failures (GTO, Crossfire). So why did it take the success of a foreign country to knock some sense into US manufacturers? Is just "timing is everything"? Or a failure of marketing for the previous cars and Nissan just "got it right"?

 

[JCE]

Good for GM, I'll be glad to see a RWD anything from them that isn't a stupid SUV or Pickup. Might be some cheap fun, especially if they stuff that new V6 in it.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've also been wondering what's been taking so long, but who really started it? What was the real catalyst for this massive change in US manufacturer's thinking? My first guess was Chrysler, being able to use the old E-Class platform after the merger. The huge success of the 300/Magnum/etc. has to have lots of sway among Ford and GM.

My guess is that your guess there is correct. The LX cars from Dodge and Chrysler pretty much proved that Americans still like AMERICAN cars in terms of looks and performance, and thus GM was pretty quick to jump on that boat. Although the rumors had been going around for some time that several models were probably going to go RWD, the LX cars certainly pushed development forward.

...As for Ford, I don't know about those guys... I think they are still waiting...

Another possibility that crossed my mind was Nissan (Infiniti). Their recent success with rear-wheel-drive is a near-total 180 in their thinking. The 300ZX died out, the 240SX/Silvia was long gone, and the only rear-drive car from Infiniti was the high-end Q45. When the 2002 G35 (and 350Z) arrived, it took the market by storm: a solid alternative to the 3-Series, much more fun than the C-Class, and a good deal cheaper than both. And now the M35/M45 is doing well, too. Sort a proof-of-concept that the public really liked rear-wheel-drive. GM & Ford were still strong on SUVs through 2004, and only now are both of them deep into rear-drive planning.

I don't know how much influence Nissan had on the decisions, if any at all. GM had already established itself in the luxury segment with the CTS, and there was already the Corvette out there. But I think you are partially right when you point out that Nissan has been able to have success without spending a ton of money, and I think GM has taken that to heart. The Zeta chassis will be used on a wide variety of cars, and chances are, the new G6 and G5 platforms will be based heavily on the Zeta design, or possibly that of the Kappa design as well. Time will tell of course, but money is expensive, and if GM can overuse a platform that is already quite good (as Nissan is doing), why not? Holden had plenty of success doing the same thing with the Omega chassis...

Strangely, it's not as though any of these companies didn't have rear-drive cars in their lineup. They seemed to simply lose popularity. Even recent forays were failures (GTO, Crossfire). So why did it take the success of a foreign country to knock some sense into US manufacturers? Is just "timing is everything"? Or a failure of marketing for the previous cars and Nissan just "got it right"?

Well, people moved away from RWD in the '70s and '80s because apparently it was "safe" and "fuel efficient" when compared to other RWD models. Here in Michigan more than enough people seem to think that you aren't going to make it out of your plowed driveway in the middle of winter with RWD, so they have pretty much vowed to stay away.

...But people are warming up to the cars. Distinctive style and driving dynamics are what seem to bring people in, and it is part of the reason why the LX cars have been so successful, and why there was almost a complete resurrection of the old Mustang feelings when it debuted as well.

I'd agree that cars like the Crossfire have fallen flat on their face, I'd say that 350+ days before sale constitutes as failure. As for the GTO, it is a mixed bag. They sold pretty well... Not as much as what GM had originally hoped, but enough to make GM want to bring the car back.

If GM can make the cars look great, drive well enough, and be competitive on price and fuel economy, they will sell the cars in droves. Even if they aren't produced in outrageous numbers, GM could still rake in a profit if they are done right, and I'm crossing my fingers they take a good look at the 3-series as their guiding light for what they think they should do.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? Yes, they will be more sporting, driving the proper wheels, but the GM companies will still have a bunch of overlap. Isn't Cadillac supposed to be taking the fight to BMW? Isn't the entire Saturn lineup moving up as an American Vauxhall/Opel? In both of those situations, Pontiac will be overlapping (though less-so in Saturn's case, since other than the chance of the next Vectra having the option of 4WD I believe all family cars will remain FWD). Of course, with Saturn moving upmarket, what of Chevrolet?

Don't get me wrong, the idea of a genuinely exciting Pontiac is refreshing, but sooner or later GM will run into the exact same problem they currently have; dozens of near-identical models, VW Golf-style. They'll be better cars, yes, but by pitting Pontiac against BMW, it is also going up against brother Caddy.

 

[harrytuttle]

...As for Ford, I don't know about those guys... I think they are still waiting...

Waiting for what, I don't know. Maybe the delay was due to the confusion before Bill Ford stepped down (or stepped back, really). It'll be interesting to see what Mulally does in the next year...as long as he does something.

I don't know how much influence Nissan had on the decisions, if any at all. GM had already established itself in the luxury segment with the CTS, and there was already the Corvette out there.

The CTS & Corvette are different market segments than the 300C & Magnum, which are generally mid-level rather than the higher-level Cadillac & Corvette brands. With the G6 going rear-drive, that drives the price point even lower, something that the US hasn't had in ages.

Holden had plenty of success doing the same thing with the Omega chassis...

That's a different country, though, and one that mostly does without snow and suburban traffic.

If GM can make the cars look great, drive well enough, and be competitive on price and fuel economy, they will sell the cars in droves. Even if they aren't produced in outrageous numbers, GM could still rake in a profit if they are done right, and I'm crossing my fingers they take a good look at the 3-series as their guiding light for what they think they should do.

I think the last three years have been such a huge leap forward for the USDM that we may actually feel good about American cars again. All these new cars and planned cars that Detroit keeps churning out all seem pretty darned good. They're not great, but the attempt is there, and the effort shows. I think once they get their feet under them again (after 30 years of increasing lameness compared to Japan & Europe), they will turn up the wick on interior and ride quality. For the first time in 20 years, I am very optimistic about the US car industry. 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? Yes, they will be more sporting, driving the proper wheels, but the GM companies will still have a bunch of overlap. Isn't Cadillac supposed to be taking the fight to BMW? Isn't the entire Saturn lineup moving up as an American Vauxhall/Opel? In both of those situations, Pontiac will be overlapping (though less-so in Saturn's case, since other than the chance of the next Vectra having the option of 4WD I believe all family cars will remain FWD). Of course, with Saturn moving upmarket, what of Chevrolet?

Don't get me wrong, the idea of a genuinely exciting Pontiac is refreshing, but sooner or later GM will run into the exact same problem they currently have; dozens of near-identical models, VW Golf-style. They'll be better cars, yes, but by pitting Pontiac against BMW, it is also going up against brother Caddy.

I certainly see your point, and thus I shall attempt to explain the GM brand line:

- Chevrolet will remain the "base" brand, the value leader, and probably the capacity leader as well. Average cars for average folks, just like it has always been. Of course, the Camaro and the Corvette will continue on as the American blue-collar heroes, but cars like the next-gen Impala and Malibu will sell as well-built cars with a strong footing against the Camry and the Charger.

- Pontiac will be the "excitement" brand again, and unlike in the past where they were basically glorified Chevrolets or downplayed Oldsmobiles, Pontiac will have it's own identity for the first time in many, many years. I think parts will be shared with many different automobiles, but the strong correlation between value and performance will be what Pontiac sells on. I'd think of it as BMW 1980's style, and will presumably target Acura and Infiniti on several levels. BMW will always be the model, but not always the target.

- Saturn will basically be the "sophisticated" brand in the GM lineup, kinda like an American Volkswagen. The model range will be varied and appeal to a wide range of people, but we will have the Astra down low, the Vectra/Aura in the middle, and topping out the lineup will be the full-size Crossover, the Outlook. Cross the ideas of Pontiac and Chevrolet and strap-on a European suspension, you get the idea.

- Buick will continue on to be the "Lexus fighter," albeit a cheaper alternative that keeps it's senior market in mind. I don't have a lengthy explanation for them other than they will use many variants of Chevrolet and Pontiac models, only more luxurious, and a softer riding suspension.

- Saab will continue to be Saab... There have been rumors of more quirky sports stuff coming up, but nothing official.

- GMC will build the trucks in the Buick/Pontiac/GMC grouping, and will continue to be the luxurious, only slightly more expensive option to Chevrolet. Nothing special.

- Hummer will do it's big SUV thing, a significant H2 update is long-past-due, and an H3 pickup is on the way.

- Cadillac will be the "eurofighter" of the brand, and will continue to cover bases between Audi, Mercedes, and BMW. The next-gen CTS promises to be the best Cadillac ever, and I expect much the same from the updated STS as well. Interior quality has been it's Achilles heel, and Cadillac has been working hard to fix it. It will pay off in the end, so we will see after Detroit.

---

Overlap is going to happen on some levels, but GM is doing its best to limit it, and I think in the near future it will be more limited than it ever was before.

 

[harrytuttle]

I certainly see your point, and thus I shall attempt to explain the GM brand line:

- Chevrolet will remain the "base" brand, the value leader, and probably the capacity leader as well. Average cars for average folks, just like it has always been. Of course, the Camaro and the Corvette will continue on as the American blue-collar heroes, but cars like the next-gen Impala and Malibu will sell as well-built cars with a strong footing against the Camry and the Charger.

- Pontiac will be the "excitement" brand again, and unlike in the past where they were basically glorified Chevrolets or downplayed Oldsmobiles, Pontiac will have it's own identity for the first time in many, many years. I think parts will be shared with many different automobiles, but the strong correlation between value and performance will be what Pontiac sells on. I'd think of it as BMW 1980's style, and will presumably target Acura and Infiniti on several levels. BMW will always be the model, but not always the target.

etc....

Wow. Actual product planning? From GM?!? I never thought I'd see the day. Go Lutz! 👍