Motion or non-motion cockpit?

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jevs

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In looking for a cockpit for a console, I have ran across some motion cockpits. Now I cannot decide if I want a motion cockpit (PC only), or just stick to what I was originally looking for.

I was looking at some of the less expensive motion setups like these:

http://www.simxperience.com/
http://www.frex.com/gp/

Looking for some opinions on wether or not the motion is worth the extra money or if it would get old after awhile ?

Once I decide this, then I can start narrowing down which specific cockpits I will look at.
 
I can only tell you from my personal experience, the motion cockpits where just the seat move, to me its a bit distracting. In a real car, the seat, wheel, and pedals all move at once, but as I was playing on this motion rig, I was having to really make sure my hands weren't snatched from the wheel, and my feet from the pedals. I have also used a rig with a good butt kicker setup and I liked that one better.

Guess its personal preference but maybe that's some food for thought!
 
To me motion rigs are a novelty toy AT BEST. I guess if you've never driven a real race car or even a street car at the track it might fool you into thinking this is how it actually feels but it doesn't. For example when taking corners, especially long corners, the motion rigs move to the side once and stay there. So you feel a small lateral G-force for a short burst. But in real life you feel a constant G-force throughout the corner.

Huge waste of money in my opinion.

An excellent tactile setup that will only cost you a few hundred dollars is a much better solution for immersion and realism IMO.
 
Have to disagree as I have a four actuator dbox which does both motion and tactile and the way it feels is pretty convincing. In other words people can say it only moves X amount and it doesn't trick your brain. This isn't true. Coupeled with the tactile after only a few minutes your brain starts filling in the missing pieces. There have been times I've gone off track and braced myself for impact, never did that with my static rig. It's a much more intense experience and definitely isn't a gimmick. Mostly everybody that says that doesn't have a motion rig. Secondly, if it was just a gimmick, race teams wouldn't use them. They most definitely make it more real, don't let anybody tell you different.

And for the record I Owned track prepped Porsches, auto cross, been in an Speedvision series M3 at Lime Rock and while motion isn't a 1:1 it gives a more visceral and convincing experience than a static cockpit. Especially when coupled with tactile. Hell lets get rid of force feedback in our steering wheels, it's not really a 1:1 of a real feeling. Or rumble or tactile, I mean it's not real. I want to race in a vacume. Hehe

Start with a great tactile system and then later choose a motion system. And really, isn't all of this a huge waste of money? I mean we could get in our real cars and drive on the real roads. But we buy toy wheels to race. :|. Why not just take your "waste of money" to the max? :)


My .02
 
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I've never tried a motion cockpit, but I think this is somewhat relevant. When I first built my sim rig I thought I'd be happy with just putting it in front of the 58" TV I've got on the wall, and I was for a time until I realised I was kind of sick of looking upwards slightly all the time, and it just wasn't realistic. So I mounted a spare 22" monitor I had directly on the rig, literally hanging over the G27, so it was much closer and felt a lot better... But it still didn't feel right. So I upgraded my GTX 580 to a 680, bought more monitors and I now have 5040x1050 pixels right in front of my face when I drive, and it's excellent. The improvement is huge, yet it's still nothing like a real car; if I turn my head too far I can see a desk on one side and a sofa on the other which you don't get in real life!

So really my point is kind of the same as Mayaman's; it doesn't have to be 100% realistic to be worthwhile, otherwise we'd just be driving actual cars. A simulation is exactly that, so if you can accept that you'll never have an exact copy of the real thing the next best thing is a motion cockpit, surely? Sim racing is just a money pit, but you can always start off small and build on it if you feel you want to.
 
I've tried several motion cockpits, even a couple of the $30k+ hydraulic ones, none of them are anything like a real race car. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking they are. It's impossible for a motion rig to simulate constant g-forces unless we are talking about the simulators used by NASA and for flight training. I've never seen a racing simulator that could properly replicate the real g-forces of a race car. They just fling you from side to side and up and down, that's not realistic.

As for the force feedback argument, it's COMPLETELY unrealistic and I would be happy to do away with it. But since we don't have the real feeling of traction in static or motion rigs, force feedback wheels are the only way that what is going on with the car can be properly transmitted to our senses.

Motion rigs are a fun novelty, and if you've got the disposable income, go ahead and get it, they are pretty fun and a great experience. But don't let it fool you into thinking it's ANYTHING AT ALL like driving a real race car.

I do have real life racing experience, a great deal of it to be honest. While road racing motorcycles was my forte (regional champion a couple times) I also spent about 15 years racing karts, Formula Ford, and Formula Continental as well, but I was nothing but an enthusiastic mid-packer in my open wheel racing days.

But, I digress, all of this is simply my opinion. I love strawberry ice cream others may absolutely hate it. Every motion rig I've tried (even the full car ones at Sega Joypolis in Tokyo) has been nothing but a fun gimmick in my opinion. Others may feel it's amazing and would never go back. I just don't think it's worth the price of admission. But then again, I think a $250k Ferrari is VERY worth it, other people say exotic cars are overpriced. Different strokes for different folks.
 
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Buddy we've already said it isn't 1:1 with a real race car, I think that argument is moot.

It's better than non motion, simple as that, there is no arguing this. Roller coasters are fun because they move. Motion rides are fun because the ride moves, it doesn't just rumble.

Also, while the motion isn't exactly like a real car you can feel road undulations, when your car is losing grip, when another car is bumping you, gravel, etc. Also it gives your body some of the effects you'd feel getting tossed around in a real car. A static cockpit cannot convey this. Like I said your brain starts filling in the gaps. If you're jaded obviously this won't work for you. :)

Again, people could have tried 3,000,000,000 simulators. You may have not liked it but it is better than static and it's better than static with only rumble. and if we're talking realism here, the motion adds another factor you have to deal with in a real car which is inertia, which you can't get ever in a static pit tactile or not.

This debate will now go back and forth for the next ten pages. But bottom line, motion or no motion it depends on the person. But anybody who says its a gimmick is just flat out wrong. Period. I used to say the same thing before I had a properly tuned motion rig. Ask my friends which they prefer. My old rig, or my new motion rig. One of these guys raced in the Speedvision series in 2000, so yeah.
 
It's a gimmick.

No, I'm not "flat out wrong" because it's my opinion.

The argument will only go on for 10 pages if you continue claiming things as facts which are actually OPINIONS.

Static with tactile is better than a motion rig in my opinion. There's a reason I haven't built a motion rig, I've had plenty of disposable income over the last 10 years that I could have used to buy or build one. I didn't do it because I don't like motion rigs. They feel fake to me, they don't add to my experience, they don't make it more fun for me, they are an annoyance. An unrealistic annoyance.

Also.....

The "intertia" you get in a motion sim is only for a split second as it moves point to point. That's completely unrealistic and completely throws me off. I turn and I get jerked to the side like someone shoved me. No one is shoving me when I'm on the track, I'm feeling constant pressure throughout the entire corner. Until they can simulate that, it's a gimmick. Also, you don't get "tossed around" in a real car, unless you are in a street car. With a proper/safe setup like REAL RACE CARS have, the only thing moving even a little bit is your head, but the HANS device limits that quite well.

One thing I haven't tried that I would like to is the Ultraforce Sim seat. That combined with a motion rig might feel a little better, since it's putting at least a simulated form of constant force on parts of your body. But it's still completely unrealistic.

Maybe if you had spent as much time as me in a real race car you might begin to understand how I feel. Motion rigs are a short-time fun little gimmick that is great for arcades. The only reason some race teams use them is because they can, not because it properly simulates what it feels like to go around a track.


You don't have to get butthurt just because someone thinks that what you spent so much time and money on is a waste. That's the beauty of opinions, they differ.
 
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superbike81
I've tried several motion cockpits, even a couple of the $30k+ hydraulic ones, none of them are anything like a real race car
Click to expand...

None of the racing sim games made are anything like driving a real car either. I'm assuming the motion rigs are the same way as the games. Some people can make their brain feel like a game is close to the real thing. I would say the motion cockpits are the same.

I've had people sit down and try and play GT5 or Iracing and thought it was the dumbest thing they have ever seen. They drive real cars every day but couldn't make it around the track at even low speeds to save their lie on the games. Others have sit down and been pretty decent at them right off the bat. I'm guessing that if you don't think about a motion setup as attempting to be a real simulation and just accept it for what it is you might be able to trick yourself into feeling motions it's not even trying to do. I know when I'm really into a race in Iracing that my body starts to feel weight and Gforces and I'm just sitting in my static seat not moving at all.
 
^^^pretty much

Superbike, it's not only pro racing that uses simulators, it's the military, car companies, and other pro applications.

I think you're missing what the guy above is saying. Split second or not the inertia is real and your brain does start to fill in the gaps. Especially with a wide field of view display.

Even the creator of the virtual gt, who've I've had extensive conversations about this topic and is an experienced sound engineer has added Dbox motion to the virtual gt at the behest of pro race drivers who have helped him develope that rig.

It's not going to simulate 100% motion, but it's like looking at a puzzle with pieces missing. The more pices you have assembled, the more of the picture you can see. Then with the pieces you're missing your brain fills in the gaps so you can make out the complete image.

This is what tactile, force feedback, and motion do, fill in gaps.

I'm presenting my argument as logically as I can, no offense meant to you. No reason to get personal. Also I've spent time in race cars as well, I know the brutal forces put on your body. Hell I spent 30 minutes in a Skip Barber trainer and felt my arms were going to fall off. But saying its a gimmick IMO is not fair or correct. We could say that about our entire hobby. And as for the money I've spent it is my money, and trust me, I'm not regretting any of it, most fun I've had in a long while. Your opinion comes off as elitist. You're not the only one who's been on a track. I think it's irrelevant anyway as the motion rigs are meant to do what I explained above, not replace real racing.

Just another puzzle piece to The puzzle, your noggin does the rest.
 
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Although i would like to have a motion based sim rig, i simply do not have the space for it.

One big disadavantage that most motion based rigs have is that the screens and or sometimes even the wheel is not moving with you.

This might be make it feel more like a gimmick to me.
Something like the headtracking in Forza4/GT5, i never got used to that because it feels unnatural.

But there a dutch company that 'solves' that with the cruden hexatech :):



This is something i would buy if i won the lottery :D
 
It is a gimmick, a very expensive gimmick.

I don't want my brain to fill in the gaps, I know where to draw the line in the quest for simulated realism. Some people don't know where to draw that line. Some people are also idiots, like the guy in the video "this is a F1 car!" LOL what a moron, put him in a real F1 car, or even a low level open-wheeler and he won't be saying that.

30 minutes in a trainer car? That's cute. I spent 10+ years actually practicing, qualifying, and racing in real formula cars. Once you've done that, and then you step into a motion "simulator" it's a joke, just like all of the games/sims out there are jokes compared to the real thing. I'm not saying they aren't fun, I'm just saying motion simulators are a gimmick in my opinion.

I'm sharing my opinion because if I didn't this thread would only have positive responses and the original poster's view on these toys might be skewed because of that. I'm giving my negative experiences to show that not everyone likes these toys. I'm not the only person on Earth who thinks they are gimmick.


Oh, and elitist? You think that all you want. You call it elitist, I call it educated. Most people haven't tried even a basic motion rig, much less one of the rigs like in the video posted above. With that, most people don't understand that a basic $3-5k home built motion setup isn't going to make them feel like they are in a real race car. I'm simply informing them that there is still a FREAKING GIGANTIC GAP between a basic motion simulator and the real thing, a gap simply too large for your brain to fill in.

Even iRacing, the king of consumer level simulators, is a freaking joke compared to real racing. There are real professional drivers who play iRacing, but they don't use it as anything more than a track learning tool, just like all these other simulators are used for. I'm not saying motion simulators are a joke, I'm saying all consumer racing simulators are a joke. Adding the motion portion in just makes it more fun for some people, it doesn't make it in the least bit more realistic.

I'm done arguing about this now.....


OP if you decide you want to do this, I strongly suggest you find someone who has one first who will let you really sit down and play with it for a few hours at least. That first few minutes is always fun, but after using one for a few hours I found it to be more annoying and intrusive than it was immersive. Don't let me completely hating them or Mayaman being completely infatuated with them sway your decision, this is something you MUST try for yourself before you make the purchase.
 
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Wowzers................LOL

Not gonna get into an online pissing match.

Ok folks, now back to our regularly scheduled program. how to cut your wrists because the world sucks, already in progress.

I'm gonna go ride my gimmick. Damn, ignorance is bliss.

Edit. For the record, as you say most everyone hasn't raced real race cars like you, they also as you said haven't been in a motion rig, so the correlation is moot. People want fun, bottom line.

Take care man.
 
It's a love/hate thing. I know just as many people who love motion simulators as I do people who wouldn't even take one for free.

That's why the OP needs to try one first. He needs to take one on an extended "test-drive" to really make a sound decision.
 
Well, I had a feeling that this thread would soon become an "it's a gimmick" argument and I wasn't disappointed! For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with Mayaman (although our opinions differ on full or seat-only motion).

For me, the key point everybody needs to keep in mind when discussing/arguing about motion simulation is this: it's about simulating, not recreating, the effects of a real car. That's why I chose a 2-DOF (Degrees of Freedom) system over full-motion. There's a scientific principle behind the 2-DOF motion system and it's called Proprioception.

What I will say, is that if the OP was struggling to keep hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals then the motion-profile on that simulator was obviously waaaaaay to aggressive. It should be a lot more subtle than that. :)

As for the argument around whether the whole rig should move or just the seat, this is where it really gets contentious! For me, it's definitely seat-only. I think it depends on what your looking for from motion. If you want an arcade-type experience then go for move-the-whole-rig solution. If, like me, you are looking for something to immerse yourself better into the sim, then go for a seat-only option. I have argued this before (in Mayamans' thread and elsewhere) and some links are listed below 'cos I really don't want to get in to all this again. Ultimately, each to their own...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6705232#post6705232

http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/simxperience-motion-sim-series-q-a-thread.23158/page-3
 
From the RaceDepartment thread:

For the average Joe who doesn't regularly race a high speed race car with very sticky tires, these sensations are plenty convincing and immersive.
Click to expand...

This explains what I am saying exactly. I am used to the REAL feeling, so to me, all this motion sim stuff is a waste of money because it doesn't feel any more real than a static rig with some tactile feedback. I understand not everyone was fortunate enough to have a family that was passionate about racing on 2 wheels and four so they haven't had the experiences I've had. It may come off as "elitist" but that's not my intention, my intention is to share my opinion.
 
jevs
In looking for a cockpit for a console, I have ran across some motion cockpits. Now I cannot decide if I want a motion cockpit (PC only), or just stick to what I was originally looking for.

I was looking at some of the less expensive motion setups like these:

http://www.simxperience.com/
http://www.frex.com/gp/

Looking for some opinions on wether or not the motion is worth the extra money or if it would get old after awhile ?

Once I decide this, then I can start narrowing down which specific cockpits I will look at.
Click to expand...


Well already and as expected this question is a touchy subject.
Either it's a waste of money or a true enhancement depending who your talking too.

My own personal views are that motion is very much dependent on the users preference and end goal in what they want or expect from their sim. The PC will bring you much more options in hardware and of course highend visuals, multi screens and more interaction from hardware available, like rev counters, rev lighs, button boxes, speedometer etc.

If your looking at furthering the entertainment/fun factor then I believe you should find great success in a quality motion rig. I have a £90,000 simulator in my home area at a karting centre with 6 dof and it isn't what I would call realistic, its too exhagerated in its movement but it has to be to generate a sense of G-Force.

The Sim Experience range I believe offers the best motion and value going. They seem to use actuators with better specs than some other brands and do offer a unique "rear traction loss" sensation as an option. Also their front end software looks great and simple to use. Well it is the brand I'm for going with after extensive looking/research.

Their is much debate about realism on what type of motion is best, Id suggest you try and attend a large gaming show or event to try out demo units if possible not everyone likes their motion to be of the more excessive nature. As for seat only motion it does that to simulate the forces. Neither method is hugely accurate and debates will always cover what is better, but I agree it can really be immersive from a gaming perspective.

Do remember though these are Games we are playing, they shoud be fun and entertaining not classed on true realism or gurantees of accurate simulation of varied motorsports.
 
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I'm not into great debating, but I wouldn't change my motion for the anything ;)

I haven't raced in real life and have no real desire to..I race in my dining room and it's awesome :)
 
My only experience with motion simulators are at car shows and while I'm not totally sold it does add to the fun. I do notice one thing in common. The wheels in them tend to be terrible. This is a $30k rig with a wheel that feels like a g27 with less torque and 270 degrees of rotation.
 
superbike81
To me motion rigs are a novelty toy AT BEST. I guess if you've never driven a real race car or even a street car at the track it might fool you into thinking this is how it actually feels but it doesn't. For example when taking corners, especially long corners, the motion rigs move to the side once and stay there. So you feel a small lateral G-force for a short burst. But in real life you feel a constant G-force throughout the corner.

Huge waste of money in my opinion.

An excellent tactile setup that will only cost you a few hundred dollars is a much better solution for immersion and realism IMO.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you here, but the only case where it's not a waste of money is when a motion cockpit has the whole rig move at once, including the steering wheel, seat and pedals, all at the same time. They are expensive, but if you can afford them, then they are well worth the money 👍 .
 
^^^tactile also adds to that and again your brain fills in the rest. When I add the GS4 sim seat to my dbox motion I'll also have a constant pressure depending on direction.

Either way, seat only or rig only movement, just get what you like and can afford.
 
Mayaman
^^^tactile also adds to that and again your brain fills in the rest. When I add the GS4 sim seat to my dbox motion I'll also have a constant pressure depending on direction.

Either way, seat only or rig only movement, just get what you like and can afford.
Click to expand...

What your doing is impressive but do you not think at some point the more gimmicks you have the more it may just detract from the actual gaming?

I guess their are gamers that look to extend their gaming for entertainment purposes and some on a pursuit to try and achieve a false sense of realism in simulation on something that realistically will always be artificial.

Good luck on your quest...
 
Mr Latte
What your doing is impressive but do you not think at some point the more gimmicks you have the more it may just detract from the actual gaming?

I guess their are gamers that look to extend their gaming for entertainment purposes and some on a pursuit to try and achieve a false sense of realism in simulation on something that realistically will always be artificial.

Good luck on your quest...
Click to expand...


Well the way I see it, the only type of people that would buy a full-motion cockpit are the type of people that believe that racing games should be totally realistic to the last detail. In a real car, you feel G-forces and people who want to increase the realism of their driving games will want to replicate that G-force that you feel in any way possible.
 
MSTER232
I have to agree with you here, but the only case where it's not a waste of money is when a motion cockpit has the whole rig move at once, including the steering wheel, seat and pedals, all at the same time. They are expensive, but if you can afford them, then they are well worth the money 👍
Click to expand...

MSTER232
Well the way I see it, the only type of people that would buy a full-motion cockpit are the type of people that believe that racing games should be totally realistic to the last detail. In a real car, you feel G-forces and people who want to increase the realism of their driving games will want to replicate that G-force that you feel in any way possible.
Click to expand...

Wat?

There aren't any (affordable) full-motion systems that can realistically replicate g-forces. Even some systems used by F1 teams, the military and major corporations lack realistic G.

I'm wondering where you're getting these ideas/opinions from? Are they based on your experience 'cos if so, please elaborate...
 
MSTER232
Well the way I see it, the only type of people that would buy a full-motion cockpit are the type of people that believe that racing games should be totally realistic to the last detail. In a real car, you feel G-forces and people who want to increase the realism of their driving games will want to replicate that G-force that you feel in any way possible.
Click to expand...

But motion cockpits AREN'T realistic, not even a little bit. They may add entertainment value for some, but they aren't realistic at all.
 
superbike81
But motion cockpits AREN'T realistic, not even a little bit. They may add entertainment value for some, but they aren't realistic at all.
Click to expand...

I don't even know why anyone would expect a motion rig to simulate g-forces, it's actually quite impossible to do if you think about what type of "equipment" would be necessary to achieve constant vertical and lateral G... we'd be talking about a massive construction in an enclosed area of at least 1 square km with a track mechanisms powered by 3000000 kWh of electrical motors, hydraulic components and so on that propel you forward and pull you from side to side and also lift you up and down.

Just thinking about how it could be technically achieved already explains that this is way out of the realm of possibility (purchasing a Formula 1 team would cost less). Either you think about what motion can do realistically or you're just dreaming up some type of magic g-force simulation setting yourself up for heavy disappointment when you're actually only traveling a few inches back and forth. That's why I kind of understand why some would laugh it off as a gimmick, but when you give a realistic chance you should find some appreciation of the fact it is giving you "information" straight from the physics engine.

I haven't done all too much reading into to all the different types of motion, but so far the Dbox seems intriguing, just because it doesn't go overboard with whipping you around and seems to give you settle clues about the position of where most of the weight of the car lies. I'm sure Mayaman isn't talking all positive just to back up his expensive decision. Sure that money could be put towards tuning and modding a real car or buying an awesome kart, but maybe in the future prices will drop on Dboxes for example.
 
Yes yes, I'm diluting my gaming experience by adding gadgets. LOFL.

I spent literally 9 hours on my simulator yesterday. 9 wonderfully fun hours I might add. The most I have ever spent on my static simulator was 2.

Realistic, not realistic, waste of money, not waste of money, you've never been in a real race car even though I have and have driven high performance cars for over 25 years, none of that matters. I'm having tons of fun. Oh but wait, I can't be right?

My feeling is that seems to me the biggest opponents and most vocal critics are those that don't even own a motion simulator LOL. While the guys who do have them enjoy the crap out of them. I mean, it's not even a little vocal, I'm talking flat out rabid frothy at the mouth soap box preaching about how I or anyone else who own these things is just stupid and less than a real sim racer, we're posers. Again LOL at you thinking you know what you're talking about or what's best for people.

You think motion rigs are a joke and some how dilute the experience? Good for you. Enjoy thinking the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese as well. You're thinking is antiquated and your attitudes are overbearing, gruff, and flat out rude at times.

I'm going to go for a ride on my toy now. See ya.
 

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