Much too stiff stock suspension in most of the cars

[szejok666]

Hello
I've written about this subject before on this forum, but my recent discoveries suggest that is a quite a big failure in GT6. I'm not saying, that I'm 100% right, but suspension stiffness seems to be a major issue, considering it's a very imporant part of driving simulation, especially in factory stock cars. So, I've decided to share with You all, summarize my findings in one post and try to explain the problem as much as I can.

The main problem is, that the factory spring rate values in almost every stock car available in game are different from the real values. They are often much too stiff compared to real-life counterparts. At the start I was thinking, that's because of the new suspension model implemented in GT6. I mean, because the whole physics system has changed, old values don't work anymore, and they had to be replaced (in that case, spring rates were stiffened). Unfortunately it's not like that. It looks like whole system works fine based on these spring rate values, the problem is that the values itself are wrong. To prove this I've got couple of examples.
The first one is the suspension stiffness of 1990 Honda NSX (japanese version). Real life model has Spring Rates of: Front : 3,04kgf/mm Rear: 3,94kgf/mm. GT6 equivalent has the spring rates of: F: 5,64kgf/mm R: 7,97kgf/mm. It means that in game NSX has nearly twice harder suspension, than it has IRL.
You probably think: okay, but it's just numbers, it doesn't prove or show anything. Actually if I were You, I would rather think the same way
So, Please, let me show You something: Buy 1990 NSX, leave it stock, just change tires to comfort medium. Do a couple laps of Tsukuba circuit with all aids off except the ABS. Try to achieve a lap time of 1.09-1.10. Also feel free to drift on the last corner, if You do, it would be easier to see a difference. To see this difference please watch this:

Then play a replay of Your Free Ride, done in the game. Try to focus Your attention on NSX handling, how it behaves in the corners, and especially how much more body roll it has IRL. It's clearly visible, that in-game version handles, like it is on very stiff, hard as rocks springs. The Real Life Counterpart is actually quite soft.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but to me it's a Big, Big failure. Especially when You consider, that it affects nearly all of the cars available in game. I would even say, that is a main flaw in this game right now. Camber and default 0.60 toe problem, that is present since the last update, next to this seems to be very small issue.
Another interesting (I hope ) couple of facts:
To compare Spring Rate values I played GT5, and even GT1 recently. In both of these titles, most cars stock spring rates are similar to real ones (and this goes way back to 1997, the first incarnation of GT!). Also if You still have GT5, try the same NSX in the same track on the same tires. You will see how soft it is, and actually how realistically it rolls in corners.
Even in GT Demo, suspension of Nissan Leaf is much softer. Here's the link:

I tested the same car on the same tires at the same track in GT6, and it's also much stiffer than in the demo.
This all wouldn't be so hard to accept, if we just could change spring rates values to real ones by fitting Fully Customizable Suspension. But in almost every car it's impossible to set these values as low as real ones.
Sorry for this long post, but I believe it was worth writing. I don't know if it's possible, but if some of You reading this, see this problem, and maybe have some contact with Polyphony Digital, could somehow share these finding with them. It might be a good idea. I think it spoils the game experience very much.
Thanks for reading
Cheers

 

[ALB123]

One major problem I see in creating a game (or simulator) that has 1000+ cars in it is: there is no way that you can create ONE suspension model that is going to work across a varying array of cars from 1960's Karmann Ghia to 2012 Toyota TS030 Hybrid AND have it be realistically matching the exact suspension system that is in each of those 1000+ cars. I believe we have a generic suspension system in this game... I might be wrong. Maybe there are three or four or even five slightly different suspension systems in the code and race cars get system 1, sports cars get system 2, sports sedans/coupes get system 3 and so on.

I see a master tuner like Ridox and he has his Replica Garage in the Tuner's section. Clearly the "stock" values of the cars we get in GT6 aren't true to life if we have to make such drastic adjustments to the cars to get them to behave like the real world version of the car he is creating a replica tune for. One thing that does blow my mind is that he does get the actual spring rate values of the real cars and sets the values accordingly. So, maybe the suspension system in this game is more adaptable than I thought.

Still, there is NO WAY that ONE suspension model can work perfectly like each car's actual suspension system with over 1000 cars in this game. No way. But then again, you can drive the aforementioned 1968 Karmann Ghia with ABS and Traction Control! LOL I know this is off-topic, but I wish in GT7 if a car didn't come with Traction Control or ABS, then don't allow it to be enabled on older cars.

 

[HuskyGT]

They definitely have improved if you compare with previous titles. I'm definitely not that technical, but if we compare with GT4 or GT5, suspension is definitely softer and you can feel and see a longer travel.

As a matter of fact, I've noticed certain cars who seem to be way softer than they should, like the Subaru BR-Z. My roommate own a BR-Z and the car has almost zero body roll, where in the game the care seems way softer, with a longer suspension travel.

I don't know. Maybe we try to compare the game with reality way too much. In my personal opinion, the game feels so great in this aspect that I don't even bother upgrading the suspension in any of my cars.

 

[szejok666]

I also think, that the suspension model is generic, but so as the stiffness. Spring Rate described in kgf/mm is an universal value. If we decrease it, car will be softer, increase - harder. It's quite easy for example to find factory spring rates for Corvettes, which all have leaf springs, so the value itself works on different type of suspensions. From what I've tested it corresponds quite well with the actual stiffness of the car in game. I mean, if we can set spring rate values accordingly to real life, the car behaves similar to what I see in the internet (Best Motoring videos mostly). Two examples are 1997 Toyota MR2 GT-S, which has exact same spring rate values IRL and in the game. Second is the NSX TYPE R '02. With fully customizable suspension, we can set real values (F: 10,40kgf/mm, R: 8,30kgf/mm).

 

[szejok666]

As a matter of fact, I've noticed certain cars who seem to be way softer than they should, like the Subaru BR-Z. My roommate own a BR-Z and the car has almost zero body roll, where in the game the care seems way softer, with a longer suspension travel.

When comparing visible body roll in corners, we must take into consideration, which tires are fitted into certain car. BRZ should be, as far as I know on Comfort Hards to give most realistic experience. On sticky tires (like CS or SH), car will roll much more in the corners, because of the speed it can achieve during cornering. I haven't driven it, but it seems to me that on the right tires it doesn't feel quite that soft. But that's only my opinion

 

[Thematic]

How is hydraulic suspension dealt with (eg. McLaren MP4-12C)?

 

[szejok666]

How is hydraulic suspension dealt with (eg. McLaren MP4-12C)?

I'll check tomorrow. As far as I remember in GT2 or GT4 Citroen Xantia didn't have any values for spring rates (rear at least)

Another car, that can be set properly, at least according to real life numbers is Nissan Skyline GT-R R34. Front: 4.00kgf/mm, Rear: 5.00kgf/mm. On these settings and with less radical toe I think it drives great, and doesn't feel too soft for me.

 

[Robbks]

H
The first one is the suspension stiffness of 1990 Honda NSX (japanese version). Real life model has Spring Rates of: Front : 3,04kgf/mm Rear: 3,94kgf/mm. GT6 equivalent has the spring rates of: F: 5,64kgf/mm R: 7,97kgf/mm. It means that in game NSX has nearly twice harder suspension, than it has IRL.

Is the in-game NSX the standard variant or the NSX-R

 

[szejok666]

In game NSX, that I've tested, and You quoted isn't a Type R. It's normal, first incarnation of NSX.
It's standard, not premium model also.

 

[332i]

The values are wrong, but the suspensions are not "almost twice as stiff", because the spring rates are about double what they should be. You should check out publications on understanding suspensions and setting a car up.

Springs are for supporting vehicle weight. My guess is there is a formula that dictates spring rate based on vehicle weight and weight distribution to save time. Some cars you actually can't find those sort of specs on, so I understand why they didn't sift through every single car. It's pretty easy to buy a suspension with a button click and do a replica tune, if these things bother you.

 

[szejok666]

It's pretty easy to buy a suspension with a button click and do a replica tune, if these things bother you.

Unfortunately it's impossible in most of cars, because even with fully customizable suspension, spring rates cannot be set as low in GT6, as they are in real life.