Need help with tunning Honda Integra Type R TOURING CAR.

[Honda2006]

Hey guys, I have already put on almost 200 miles on my new Honda Integra R Touring car ( 450 000$ ). I have no HP upgrades. I have the base 310 hp and I bough Hard race slicks. Thats all. I took the High speed Ring as my test course. I got the times down to a 1min 17. 243s with my current set-up. Current problem I am having in going faster, is getting grip on exit of corners. I have tried a bunch of things. Do you guys have any ideas?

Thanks.

 

[Scaff]

Hey guys, I have already put on almost 200 miles on my new Honda Integra R Touring car ( 450 000$ ). I have no HP upgrades. I have the base 310 hp and I bough Hard race slicks. Thats all. I took the High speed Ring as my test course. I got the times down to a 1min 17. 243s with my current set-up. Current problem I am having in going faster, is getting grip on exit of corners. I have tried a bunch of things. Do you guys have any ideas?

Thanks.

What are your current settings, unless we know them we can't do a lot to help.

Post them up and I'm sure we can help.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Honda2006]

Current settings are as follows:

310hp, 6 speed.

Spring Rates: 18F 20R
Ride Hieght: for the front i'm lowered to the max, and the rear is exactly 10mm higher.
Bound: 8F 8R
Rebound: 8F 8R
Camber: -2.5F 0.0R
Toe: 0F 0R
Stab.: 7F 7R
Aero: 10F 5R
LSD: 60 Initial 60 ACCEL 20 DECELL.
Brakes: 12F 12R
Tires: Slicks - Hardest possible (for long lasting)
Wieght balance: all towards the front

What i wanna try and do is remove front end understeer on exit of corners. Try to put power down grip.

Hope you guys can help.

Thanks.

 

[Kent]

I know it sounds odd but getting away from the extremes in your settings may help a great deal.

Move the ride height up a bit for both front and rear.
Move the springs down a considerable amount for both front and rear (although keeping the 2lb. difference is a good idea).
Move the stabilizers down to 4/5 or 5/6 may also help.

Lowering the front camber may also help.

All of those things may help but I can't be sure since I haven't tested the ITR: TC on high speed ring yet.

Later today I will give a full test and see what I come up with (for both settings and lap time).

until then,
-Kent

 

[Honda2006]

Thanks for the update. I tried a bunch of lower " more comfortable " settings, and this car seems to handle better when it's "Darty" and not so comfortable to drive. It's a very tricky car to set-up, I find. I'm sure you guru's will be able to do it also.

Thanks for the input, talk soon.

 

[B_B_B]

try lowering those lsd settings is it breaking loose when you lift throttle and hit the throttle in turns?

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Current settings are as follows:

310hp, 6 speed.

Spring Rates: 18F 20R
Ride Hieght: for the front i'm lowered to the max, and the rear is exactly 10mm higher.
Bound: 8F 8R
Rebound: 8F 8R
Camber: -2.5F 0.0R
Toe: 0F 0R
Stab.: 7F 7R
Aero: 10F 5R
LSD: 60 Initial 60 ACCEL 20 DECELL.
Brakes: 12F 12R
Tires: Slicks - Hardest possible (for long lasting)
Wieght balance: all towards the front

What i wanna try and do is remove front end understeer on exit of corners. Try to put power down grip.

Hope you guys can help.

Thanks.

Can´t remember if this is FR or FF, but something like this;
Springs: 12.5/12.0 or 12.0/12.5 depending on drive
Rideheight: 65/70 or higher
Damper: 4/3 or 4/5 depending on drive
rebound: 7/5 or 7/8 depending on drive
camber: 2.5/1.5
toe: 1/-2
stabilisers: 4/4 or 4/3

downforce: three quarters of max amount front/rear

LSD: 20/40/35 or closeby

Brakes: 6/7 or 7/6 depending on drive

no ballast, and put all balance to the middle.

Hope this helps. And please consider I did this from the top of my head!
I shall do some testing and be back, but I doubt I will post any major changes.

 

[Honda2006]

With the curret settings I have, the breaks loose a little bit on entry to corner. Just what I want! It's only on exit that i cannot apply full power. Especially in lower speed 2-3-4 gear corners.

Thanks for the set-up help...I will try some few things tonight. Keep on trying boys.

Thanks.

 

[Scaff]

I would agree with Kent that a large part of the issue looks to be with the very extreme values used, the car looks to be set-up extremely stiff.

Raise the ride height, soften the springs (by quite a bit) and the Anti-roll bars (sorry just find it hard to call them stabilisers).

It also looks like the dampers are far to rigid as well, which is going to account for some of the traction issues, softer dampers allow the suspension to react more quickly and track the road better, valuable is the front wheels have a lot of weight being transfered off them under acceleration.

You seem to have moved a load of ballast to the front to try and help the front end under acceleration, trouble is this is not going to help under cornering (overloading the front tyres), and may be a major part of the understeer issue.

You may also want to bias the spring and damper settings more towards the front, that may sound counter productive, but remember its a FWD car, that were the weight is and it needs supporting more than the rear.

FWD cars also benefit from a strong front brake bias as well, I personally would not try and use the BBC to tune handling, rather use it to ensure you can stop as quickly and with the maximum stability.

I don't know (as I have not yet had a good look at the car) if you can swap out the LSD for a 1-way version, I've found this works very well with most FWD cars.


May I also recomend downloading my Suspension and brake tuning guide as it may help put more detail on some of what I have covered above, the link is in my sig or see the sticky thread at the top of the Tuning forum.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Honda2006]

Thanks alot for all this information. I will try alot of this tonight, and I believe I could get faster. Thanks a bunch guys.

Thanks.

 

[Scaff]

One other thing, I noticed you say that you are using the High Speed Ring as a test track.

While the choice of test venue is individual its not the most representative track as its limited in the nature of corner types it contains.

Personally I use Grand Valley Speedway for race track testing as its smooth and relatively flat, with an excellent mixture of corners and some really nasty braking points to tune for, particulalrly the 2nd hairpin.

For more bumpy, public road style tracks I use Deep Forest, its got some nasty surface changes and high curbs, really tests the suspension set-up to the max.

The 'ring is a venue all by itself, and needs to be tuned as such.

You may be able to tell that I am a great believer in tuning for each track, but do find that Grand Valley Speedway and Deep Forest provide a great springboard for a whole range of tracks. Something I don't consider the High Speed Ring does, unless of course you are tuning specifically to run the car there.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Mt. Lynx]

OK, I´ve tried some stuff now, and I was fairly spot on with the stuff posted earlier, but some changes were made:
Springs: 12.5/14.0
rideheight: 65/75
dampers: 3/5
rebound: 5/7
camber:2.5/1.5
toe:1/-2
stabilisers: 3/4
max downforce.
LSD: 25/45/30
brakes: 7/6
superhard tyres gave 1:17.xxx on Highspeed ring, same as you, but this setting is fairly stable. Very little understeer, and what remains is easily cured by a quick throttle liftoff. Brakes are phenomenal on this car, and can be applied very late.
all else as stated before.
Now give this a go, you seem to be a better driver than me, so you should improve on my settings!

@Scaff - Deep Forest is a very good suspension tuning track, and suspension tuned there is usually (not always) transferrable directly to El Capitan , La Sarthe and Nürburgring. As for GV, I prefer Midfield instead, simply because it´s shorter. I have noticed that virtually all setting tuned at Midfield can be used as is on Grand Valley, so for corners, speed and surface, those two are very similar, with the exceptions of track length and number of turns.

 

[Kent]

One other thing, I noticed you say that you are using the High Speed Ring as a test track.

While the choice of test venue is individual its not the most representative track as its limited in the nature of corner types it contains.

Personally I use Grand Valley Speedway for race track testing as its smooth and relatively flat, with an excellent mixture of corners and some really nasty braking points to tune for, particulalrly the 2nd hairpin.

For more bumpy, public road style tracks I use Deep Forest, its got some nasty surface changes and high curbs, really tests the suspension set-up to the max.

The 'ring is a venue all by itself, and needs to be tuned as such.

You may be able to tell that I am a great believer in tuning for each track, but do find that Grand Valley Speedway and Deep Forest provide a great springboard for a whole range of tracks. Something I don't consider the High Speed Ring does, unless of course you are tuning specifically to run the car there.

Regards

Scaff

This is the truth.
Deep Forest is a great track for tuning cars to generally "good" settings.

The Ring I find to be more complex because, well, I'm a nut about the Ring.
But also because the Ring has so many changes in elevation and so many turns that it is almost impossible to match any other track to the Ring without needing some changes in the settings.

In my opinion it would be best for you to heed the advice of Scaff.

Not only does he do well with his work, but he is also letting you in on a big problem... High Speed Ring is not a great track for testing!

Also,

It's only on exit that i cannot apply full power.

This is a major problem as well.

The fact of the matter is, you can't just drive the car how you want to.

You will need to adjust your driving just as much as you adjust the settings.

Rarely will you find a FF in GT4 capable of putting down all of its power on the exits without wheel spin or understeer.

I suggest you consider testing with a different track and using a more "temper" driving style to start.

Also, tell us what it is that you want to do with this car and setup (please).

It would help all of us trying to help you if we knew what the end goal was. If your goal is to put down the fastest "H.S.R." lap possible then you are probably on the right track.

However, if you are tuning this car to compete in a racing series, or to run as a generally enjoyable car on any track, then you may want to let us know. 👍

In any case, once I get my cheated mem card back from my little bro I will have a run at this combo.

Until then I'm out of luck simply because I'm not spending half the money on my personal account just to test this out (nothing personal).

So, until later,

 

[Scaff]

In my opinion it would be best for you to heed the advice of Scaff.

Not only does he do well with his work, but he is also letting you in on a big problem... High Speed Ring is not a great track for testing!

Thanks for the 👍 Kent, coming fromyou that means a lot.

I also agree with you in regard to the 'ring and FWD cars in GT4

Thanks

Scaff

OK, had a chance to play and he's my effort (all Front / Rear)

Spring Rates 12 / 11.8
Ride Height 70 / 75
Bound 5 / 5
Rebound 6 / 6
Camber 2.5 / 0.5
Toe 0 / +2
Antitroll Bars 1 / 5

Aero 10 / 5

Brake Bias 7 / 3

LSD 15 / 40 / 20

Gears Auto 10 - then set 2nd to 2.8

The suspension set-up is based on the classic FWD touring car style with a slight raise to the rear ride height to keep weight transfer forward under brakeing (I will explain why in a minute). The toe out at the rear is a great trick for FWD cars, as it helps get the rear mobile when you lift off the throttle. Finally the Antiroll bars are very loose at the front (if I could I'd actually set the front to zero) and stiff at the rear, this helps keep lots of grip at the front end under braking and on turn-in and destabilises the rear to get it swinging around.

Now a set-up like this does demand a quite specific approach to corner entry, it lets you brake very late and deep into the apex of the corner, turning in hard as you let off the brakes, the rear will step out as you apex and simply ease on the throttle to straighten up as you exit.

The aero is set-up to minimise understeer in constant radius corners, but you are still going to need to balance the car with the throttle in corners of this type, the FWD layout means not a huge amount can be done to change that.

You're original brake set-up was much to high, when I tested it the ABS was kicking in the moment you touched the brakes which means you are actually going to take longer to stop! The revised settings should shorten braking to match the tyres potential and make the most of all the front end weigh transfer.

The LSD settings you were using were also a major part of the understeer issue, you may not be aware but the initial torque setting effects the strength of the accel and decel values so an initial and accel set to 60 each is going to lock the car up under throttle very quickly, kills the cars manouverability.

I've just increased the initial to 15 to tighten things up a bit and set the Auto gear setting to 10 and changed 2nd gear to 2.8. Its resulted in a slightly more manageable second gear ratio, and you should have no issues in third or above. You can now use about 80% throttle in 2nd quite happily, but if you find it a problem still just change up at 10k rather than the red line. You may miss out on a bit of the rev range in second, but hell if you're currently spinning it all away its still going to be quicker to change upto third early.

Now even given that, you need to (as Kent has already said) exercise good throttle control in the lower gears in a FWD car. Never give it full throttle (in lower gears) unless the wheels are straight and on the road, rumble strips and curbs will bleed the power away.

You may have noticed from all I have said above that FWD tuning and driving is always a compromise, but given that you are asking the driven wheels to steer and handle 300+bhp what else should be expected.

I can't promise that these changes will suit you, but they provide a great drive for me, give them a go if you like and any feedback (from anyone) would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Kent]

Thanks scaff.

Now regarding the Integra...
I've got settings to post and times to post.
First off, I ran with Super Hard Racing Tires to begin with (not remembering the mods to the car).

Integra Type R Touring Car
High Speed Ring Hotlap
Stock with no mods at all. (310hp)

So, my first few laps were all stock.
Once I had the line down, I estimated a 1'18.1 (based on the best lap minus the gain of my best final sector).

Went into settings and adjusted only a few parts, ran down to 1'17.9 or so... Then started running with a few fine adjustments and made it down to
1'17.721 (still on super hard tires).
For another 3 to 8 laps I went consistant in the 1'17-1'18 range.

Back out to the shop now and Racing Hard (R2) Tires are equipped. 👍

First lap back on the track is 1'16.196 (still on the settings listed below).
5 or so laps later I haven't beat the 1'16.1 but 1'15 (down to mid 1'15 for me) is there. 👍

So what are the settings and why were they used in this way...

First off, I touched only what I felt needed to be adjusted.

3/3 Brake Balance

11.8/11.8 Springs
85/85 Ride Height
8/8 (Bound)
8/8 (Rebound)
2.0/0.5 Camber
0/0 Toe
5/6 Stabilizers

4.500 Final Drive Ratio (Auto Slider was left at default and only the Final Drive Ratio was adjusted)

10/12 Down Force

10/40/30 LSD

0/0/0 Driving Aids

This may seem conservative but it works.
Remember, I believe in preserving the car's natural characteristics, so default settings remain intact if possible.

However, my initial attempts to change settings went in this order (roughly)...
The Rear Camber obviously needed to be reduced for long turns.
The Rear Down Force also need to be be reduced.
The stabilizers were 6/6 default so reducing the front was the best bet for creating a stiffer rear.
Like wise, I found the springs plenty strong enough to carry through the turns and so, the front was reduced to match the rear (instead of increasing anything).

Nothing else in the suspension needed to be adjusted in my opinion.

The LSD was only adjusted to compensate for the new instability created by the reduction of rear downforce. That required only a mild amount of increase in the Deceleration and because wheel spin was not an issue, I did not adjust the acceleration or initial torque settings.

Finally, the drivetrain was adjusted by final drive ratio alone, as to not change the individual gear ratios from their default positions (although adjusting individual gears after adjust the final drive ratio may be beneficial on other tracks). 👍

In closing...
My time speaks for me as a driver in some senses, but it should also say that I've got a fast car.

The Key to racing this combonation is in my sig.
Adjust yourself before the car.
Only adjust what you really know about.
Only adjust what the track demands.

Those are the steps and results I take when attempting to tackle this combo.
I hope they help.



Edit:
Btw, all of that took 60.4 miles of testing from start to finish.

Edit:
For the sake of Rating this car...
80-83 % or "B-"
The power felt weak and the high end of the rev range was not nearly as potent as I expected.

The redeeming qualities were very clear though. 👍
The handling was awesome and just as you would expect with any FF, the "weak" feeling power also left me with only slight understeer.
Turn-in under braking was well behaved and on a course other than High Speed Ring the ITR TC may have recieved a higher score.

 

[Scaff]

Opps I should have mentioned that my set-up was carried out at the Grand Valley Speedway.

I would agree with Kent in regard to the power of the car, it does feel a little weak and the delivery is more than a little peaky (it all goes a bit mad past 10K).

Although I did not test it at the High Speed Ring, it doesn't seem like a car that would suit the fast, open nature of that track, then again very few FWD cars do. Its much more at home on the more technical nature of Grand Vally.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Honda2006]

Thanks for the info guys. Last night I did these changes and thanks to you guys, I improved .5 seconds. I ran a 1min 16. 765s, with the following

Tires: Super hard racing tires
Springs: 13F / 15R
Ride H.: 78F / 85R
Damper Bound: 5F / 6R
Damper Re-Bound:7F / 7R
Camber: -1.0F / 0.0R
Toe: 0F / 0R
Stab.: 5F / 7R
Brakes: 5F / 3R
LSD: 30/30/20
Aero: 10F / 5R

I will extend my testing onto Grand Valley like you said....This will make a better set-up for all types of corners. Low and High speed.

Thanks a bunch guys.

PS: How are you guys with the exit traction? power to the ground?

 

[Kent]

My traction on exits is fine.

The only thing is, I'm not going 100% until I know it is safe.

All FF cars in GT4 will go through their worst understeering during full power acceleration.

That's why the real trick to driving this car is not in the settings, but in the driver. 👍

Practice holding a half-throttle turn and then learn the cues for when it is ok to go full throttle.

For example, the very last turn of the high speed ring...

Go down to the inside and hold half throttle.
Then watch the distant curve of that turn... Eventually you will see the black and white alternation of lotus signs (I think they are lotus signs) on the final/opening straight.

When you see those lotus signs it is usually ok to go full throttle.
Once you do so the car will quickly begin to pull you to the outside.

However, if you know where to start up on full throttle again and you know how to tune your car, the turn should give you enough time to avoid hitting the wall.

My best suggestion comes in two parts.
1) Learn to race the car without adjusting the suspension, then adjust the suspension and race.
2) Try my exact setup (exactly).

My suspension worked really well for me and I put down a good time with it after using only a bit of time to work on the lap.

That's all I've got for you too... There is nothing more I can do besides post my exact setup.

If you want to run it, please do, and if you don't- that's your decision.

Just remember not to judge a book by it's cover.
The suspension I posted may not fit in with the others here but I know for a fact that it works well.

Well enough that I am confident about using this setup and car in a race. 👍

So, good luck to you with future races.
I've given you my best, now it is up to you to decide whether or not to use it.

In any case, I'm glad to see your improved your time.

 

[Honda2006]

Thanks to all for your help. I have just received this game about 2 weeks ago, and I had played GT2 and GT3 a bunch of times. I do race cars in real life. I'm actually a Canadian Honda / Michelin champion. I do find the game very realistic. It's nice to see a game, that when you do the slight changes on set-up, the car changes. I thank you guys again for taking your time in helping me out...Now i just need to get use to the game.

Is there a place where we can compare HOT lap times?

Thanks.

 

[Scaff]

Thanks to all for your help. I have just received this game about 2 weeks ago, and I had played GT2 and GT3 a bunch of times. I do race cars in real life. I'm actually a Canadian Honda / Michelin champion. I do find the game very realistic. It's nice to see a game, that when you do the slight changes on set-up, the car changes. I thank you guys again for taking your time in helping me out...Now i just need to get use to the game.

Is there a place where we can compare HOT lap times?

Thanks.

Good to hear, and I agree 100% with Kents advice with FWD in GT4, good throttle control is a must.

Don't worry about asking any questions, its the sort of thing we (well I do) enjoy.

BTW if you are looking to se how you compare with other GT4 drivers take a look at the Leaderboards (button at the very top of the page) or take a look at the On-line racing forums, some of the members over at the OLR are very fast. Me I just stick to tuning, consider me a friendly spanner man.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Kent]

Is there a place where we can compare HOT lap times?

Thanks.

Yes there is. 👍

On the main page of the GTP forums you will find a section marked as "Spot Race and Lap Time Comparisons."
Use that link to get into the spot race forum (perfect for comparing hotlaps).

Also, try going to the WRS (linked in my sig and found in the back of the "Official GTP Competitions"). The WRS is a Weekly Race Series with a moderator posting a new race each week. 👍

Finally, the Short Race Series, and Long Race Series Forums will both offer races as part of a series created by normal members on the gtp.

Right now stand outs in the GTP OLR forums include...
The WRS (it is a main stay that is worth paying attention to).
The spot race forum's "Ring" comparison threads & the Tsukuba Comparison thread.
The Short race series for S2000s and the Long race series for the Nurburgring.

I don't pay much attention to the team and special OLR forums but you can find those on the main page as well.

Just look for the OLR forums on the main page of the GTP forums. 👍

Good Luck.