NET vs GROSS

[Velocity]

Hey guys I think I have found another GT inconsistency with the power ratings for the cars.

As some may know before the year 1972, car manufacturers used Gross horse power ratings on their cars. What this means is that the car companies used to dyno check their engines with no exhaust, alternator, power steering pump ect attatched to the engine. This gives the GROSS power output of the engine. All those accesories cause the engine some horsepower. So the power output with all this stuff hooked up is called the NET power rating.

However PD never mentions this. So a 375 HP Charger next to a 276 HP skyline is not a fair comparison. The chargers engine rating is the gross rating and I'm sure the Skyline is NET.

This isn't really a problem but it can sorta of lead to false power comparisons.

Shouldn't PD have gone all NET ratings? If so that would put the Charger around 315 HP. The old American muscle typically lost about 55-60 HP with everything hooked up.

Comments?

 

[Jonerz]

Hey guys I think I have found another GT inconsistency with the power ratings for the cars.

As some may know before the year 1972, car manufacturers used Gross horse power ratings on their cars. What this means is that the car companies used to dyno check their engines with no exhaust, alternator, power steering pump ect attatched to the engine. This gives the GROSS power output of the engine. All those accesories cause the engine some horsepower. So the power output with all this stuff hooked up is called the NET power rating.

However PD never mentions this. So a 375 HP Charger next to a 276 HP skyline is not a fair comparison. The chargers engine rating is the gross rating and I'm sure the Skyline is NET.

This isn't really a problem but it can sorta of lead to false power comparisons.

Shouldn't PD have gone all NET ratings? If so that would put the Charger around 315 HP. The old American muscle typically lost about 55-60 HP with everything hooked up.

Comments?

Does this have anything to do with tuning or set-up? if so,

huh, i didnt know the losses were that drastic. you also have to include, the manufacturors would test a really basic motor for the insurance companies so you would see a car like the Cobra 427 rated real low. now-a-days we know it has been chasis dinoed for the public at like 4or500hp. the ratings the manufacturor would give would be something rediculous like 290hp. anywho, the horsepower wars will never be over, i say do your homework test the cars if possible thats how i make most of my purchases $$$$BAND FOR THE BUCK$$$$!!!!!

👍 Jonerz 👍

 

[MaxxTraxx]

I don't expect it too be that low though . Maybe a 20 - 10 hp loss , but nothing much.

I wouldn't expect a Charger to make 310 hp on the dyno , depends which one you are talking about.

I am sure though, getting the NET horsepower isn't all that easy , you can't just go back in time.

Also , for some of the cars, I know that PD probaly loked at a owner's car and modeled it after that , I am sure most of the owners won't risk thier puppies up on that dyno , eg '71 Dodge Charger SuperBee Hemi (my dad owns one )

 

[Jmac279]

Meh, Net ratings don't really tell you much either ...

I think it should be mandatory that all vehicles be rated AT THE WHEELS ... you know, where it matters ...

Of course, Subaru definitely wouldn't be happy with that ...

 

[jrudd]

Here is some interesting info about muscle car horsepower ratings. As it turns out, they were inflated beyond testing without exhaust and engine accessories.

http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/455oldsand340MOPARCSERE.JPG
www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~tcroy/articles/horsepower.htm
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRRODMUSCLE1.JPG
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRODMUSCLE2.JPG

I'm a huge muscle car fan, but the truth is that those cars aren't as fast as most people think.

edit: Mopar or no car!

 

[Velocity]

Here is some interesting info about muscle car horsepower ratings. As it turns out, they were inflated beyond testing without exhaust and engine accessories.

http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/455oldsand340MOPARCSERE.JPG
www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~tcroy/articles/horsepower.htm
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRRODMUSCLE1.JPG
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRODMUSCLE2.JPG

I'm a huge muscle car fan, but the truth is that those cars aren't as fast as most people think.

edit: Mopar or no car!

Hey thanks for this! That pretty much backs up everything I said.

How is this relevant to GT4? Just another detail PD missed. Should put beside the enigine ratings wether they're gross or net. IMO.

 

[jrudd]

I'd like to see somebody test all these cars in GT4 and see how the quarter mile times reallt compare. If I can find some time today, I'll try a few out.

 

[MaxxTraxx]

Here is some interesting info about muscle car horsepower ratings. As it turns out, they were inflated beyond testing without exhaust and engine accessories.

http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/455oldsand340MOPARCSERE.JPG
www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~tcroy/articles/horsepower.htm
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRRODMUSCLE1.JPG
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRODMUSCLE2.JPG

I'm a huge muscle car fan, but the truth is that those cars aren't as fast as most people think.

edit: Mopar or no car!

They aren't as fast but they have a bunch of torque and power!

 

[Velocity]

They aren't as fast but they have a bunch of torque and power!

But my question is, as fast as what? I mean even with around 300 rear wheel HP and all of that "extra weight" those oldies still churned out times in the 13's and 14's. I mean what today is much better than that stock? Take an NSX. Love that car. $100, 000 plus to own one. 1/4 mile time around low 13 seconds stock.

I don't see the big difference. Most BMW's turn 13's and 14's don't they? A 12 here and there? Why do so many seem to think that todays general production cars are so much faster than that of the old days?

Anyway I don't want to start a new car vs old car debate here. They're all great!

 

[lazydog]

Most BMW's turn 13's and 14's don't they?

Only the fastest models with the bigger engines, I'd say. My old 316i isn't anywhere near 14s, perhaps more in the 18s+ range at best. 318i, 320i are not much different, even a 325i would have serious trouble on the quartermile competing against a real musclecar. The inline-6 built by BMW for many years is only really powerful at very high rpms, if you floor the accelerator at 3000 rpms, nothing much really happens (I was driving a 318is, 320i, 325i, 520, 525e, 525i - all stock, not modified).
Thus, after shifting up (stock) gears you lose time bringing the engine up to 5000+ rpms.

I don't have exact times available at the moment, but iirc a COPO 9561 Camaro beats _many_ Ferraris on the dragstrip, I'll look that up.


13.x s for a quarter mile IS VERY fast already, and while its true that SAE-HPs are sometimes exaggerated or inaccurate, the old american cars with big block engines were built for drag racing, and they were (are) very good at that.

 

[speed_freak]

muscle cars are fast as in the 1/4 mile only( there are a few exceptions though) I know a guy who has a 1500hp chevelle that runs 7s. Its top speed is probably 10 mph more than its 1/4 time. BTW that car is not street legal drag only.

 

[Sloth]

http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/455oldsand340MOPARCSERE.JPG
www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~tcroy/articles/horsepower.htm
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRRODMUSCLE1.JPG
http://members.cox.net/harddrivin1le/HOTRODMUSCLE2.JPG

Interesting articles.

If I owned an old "muscle" car and found out that I got jipped on the power due to false advertising, I would probably persue legal action.


Yay for leaky sinuses

 

[Greyout]

I mean what today is much better than that stock? Take an NSX. Love that car. $100, 000 plus to own one. 1/4 mile time around low 13 seconds stock.

the 2005 Acura NSX starts at $89,000 USD. Car & Driver published test results indicating a 1/4 mile of 12.9 @ 110 mph.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

There are two settings in one of the PAL versions ; BHP and PS (pferdestarke) , there are variations in these two output displays as far as i can tell . The latter one is probably DIN or closer to NET output across the board and a better guide . Can you change the output display in the US settings ?