NTSC Championship - How To Line Up The Grid Poll

[Earth]

(Please note that only votes from drivers who sign up for the NTSC Championship will be counted.)

Here are your options. Please read them carefully.

Option #1

Everyone starts the race -5pp or in this example 545pp. The top 2 finishers after the first heat race add 1pp to their car, giving them 546pp, ensuring they start last for the next race.

You only have to add 1pp once, even if you finish in the top 2 again in the next heat races.

Option #2

In the week leading up to the race an open time trial is held using the current car/track combo.

For example if this option was being used in this week's round you would go to free run, tune the TVR Tamora '02 to 550pp at Suzuka and save your best lap.

Whoever turns in the fastest lap gets to start on pole position.

The second fastest time will start 2nd, the 3rd fastest 3rd, and so on.

Starting position is accomplished by pp tuning.

536 - #1 fastest time in free run using car/track combo
538 - #2 fastest
540 - #3 fastest and so on
542
544
546
548
550

The above would also help lower the gap to drivers who are off the pace

Option #3

Random grid starts using the same pp

 

[FLASH48]

The first races were done using random grid positions! Why change it now! There is usually not many people playing at the times we are, so i see know need for all the other stuff. And we have eight players, so would only be four other outside racers at the most.

 

[The Outlaw]

I'm still a bit undecided as to what we should do to determine starting grid positions. I will give it some thought today though 👍

The first races were done using random grid positions! Why change it now! There is usually not many people playing at the times we are, so i see know need for all the other stuff. And we have eight players, so would only be four other outside racers at the most.

Why change it now? Because having a lottery on starting positions is absolutely retarded in a LEGITAMATE COMPETITION. The driver who starts 8 cars back is going to have a hell of a time trying to catch a driver of similar pace who's LUCKY enough to start in P1 every race, especially at a track like Suzuka where there aren't many places to pass. If you get stuck starting out back every race, what kind of fairness is that??? You may as well give the poor guy a -20PP reduction and throw some sandbags in his trunk while you're at it

 

[cudadude2]

whjle i'm usually a fan of compicated rules, i think as long as we're still putting up with GT5P option 3 would be fine,

b

 

[kart racer]

I would like to invite you to come to a TPRA event and see how they do it.
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=granturismo&message.id=398119#M398119
Here is a link to the next event for Wednesday. It works really well and we have a blast.

 

[Earth]

I would like to invite you to come to a TPRA event and see how they do it.
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=granturismo&message.id=398119#M398119
Here is a link to the next event for Wednesday. It works really well and we have a blast.

Those guys are very professional

I see they run a free run time trial for qualifying, but how exactly do they set up the grid, by using pp?

If option 2 is chosen, the deadline will be 24 hours before the race starts so the drivers will have plenty of time to know what their pp should be. Those who choose not to submit a time will all be given exactly 2 pp more then the last person who did submit a time.

 

[LinPark]

I think this will have to depend on which car/track we do each week won't it? I for one am fine with random for this week: 1) because I probably won't make it and 2) because its a dead start at Suz and by turn 1 its all pretty close anyway (Fuji included there too I believe).

As for option 2, if this were an HSR event and I have 550PP vs someone at 536PP isn't that a bit much of an advantage over a 10 lap race? Have we even tested that out?

I noticed one thing last night while racing Chad - we did 3 races and he hosted all of them and he started up front at HSR every single time with 650PP in the NSX so I'm guessing random these grids are NOT (NOTE: he didn't win any of those races! )

I'm going to wait to cast my vote after some more comments come in.

 

[Earth]

I think this will have to depend on which car/track we do each week won't it? I for one am fine with random for this week: 1) because I probably won't make it and 2) because its a dead start at Suz and by turn 1 its all pretty close anyway (Fuji included there too I believe).

As for option 2, if this were an HSR event and I have 550PP vs someone at 536PP isn't that a bit much of an advantage over a 10 lap race? Have we even tested that out?

I noticed one thing last night while racing Chad - we did 3 races and he hosted all of them and he started up front at HSR every single time with 650PP in the NSX so I'm guessing random these grids are NOT (NOTE: he didn't win any of those races! )

I'm going to wait to cast my vote after some more comments come in.

HSR is like Daytona or Indy, it doesn't matter where you start, but at tracks like Suzuka, London, Daytona Road, or even Fuji if you start deep in the field you usually have problems getting to the front, and without RBE I'm quite sure it is worst now.

But even at Daytona or HSR I would prefer to start up front, without RBE and with large fields the chances of escaping the draft up front and pulling away become very real.

I remember back in the days of the Garage Showdowns 888 Tuning gave me an awesome tune for the Dodge Viper SRT10, nothing could beat it, but with the random starting positions I couldn't really show the car's full potential because of the traffic. With "Option 2" I probably would have started near the front of the grid.

I hate having a hot rod but not being able to show it because you're mired in traffic.

As for the pp situation, it can be adjusted and tweaked as we go. Perhaps make the gap 1pp instead of 2pp.

 

[The Outlaw]

HSR is like Daytona or Indy, it doesn't matter where you start, but at tracks like Suzuka, London, Daytona Road, or even Fuji if you start deep in the field you usually have problems getting to the front, and without RBE I'm quite sure it is worst now.

I agree. To expand on that a bit, it also greatly depends on who is placed where on the grid and their relative pace to everyone else. For example, if you're one of the fastest drivers on the grid and you get stuck starting out back, you're chance of catching up to a driver who started up front with a similar pace is slim to none, especially if the drivers who started in the middle of the pack are slower than your pace by 3-4 seconds a lap. Not only would you be getting the disadvantage of starting 7 places back, but you would also have the disadvantage of losing A LOT of time trying to get by the midpack cars as the leader sails off into the distance. So in the end the fast driver who was lucky enough to start in P1 is basically handed the win, something that should not happen in a legitimate competition.

It's simply not fair to all the drivers to you use the current format to determine grid positions. By starting someone out back you're basically doing the same thing as giving them at least a 10-15 second pit stop penalty...is that FAIR??

 

[LinPark]

I agree. To expand on that a bit, it also greatly depends on who is placed where on the grid and their relative pace to everyone else. For example, if you're one of the fastest drivers on the grid and you get stuck starting out back, you're chance of catching up to a driver who started up front with a similar pace is slim to none, especially if the drivers who started in the middle of the pack are slower than your pace by 3-4 seconds a lap. Not only would you be getting the disadvantage of starting 7 places back, but you would also have the disadvantage of losing A LOT of time trying to get by the midpack cars as the leader sails off into the distance. So in the end the fast driver who was lucky enough to start in P1 is basically handed the win, something that should not happen in a legitimate competition.

It's simply not fair to all the drivers to you use the current format to determine grid positions. By starting someone out back you're basically doing the same thing as giving them at least a 10-15 second pit stop penalty...is that FAIR??

Given your reputation and skill level, the more slow drivers I can put between you and me at the start the better because once I can actually read your name above the car and I'm in cockpit forward view, I realize its too late!

I would prefer another Option then. The slowest qualifier starts up front with the best tune while the fastest qualifier starts in the back with a worse tune - I just can't figure out how to make that happen.

Anyone up for testing 536PP vs 550PP tonight at Suz? Would really like to see how that stacks up.

 

[FLASH48]

Hey LinPark. You could make them start 10 seconds after you, or maybe 20!!👍

 

[Vaxen]

My recommendation is a variation on option #2:

First, determine seed by one of the following two methods:
1) time trial
2) current points standing

The top 7 places my subtract up to (8 - their seed) from their starting PP. This is entirely optional, but allows them to trade PP for start position.

Example, for a 550pp race:
seed #1: May use a tune with pp from 543 - 550
seed #2: May use a tune with pp from 544 - 550
...
seed #7: May use a tune with pp of 549 or 550
seed #8+: Must use 550pp

This allows the seed winner to decide for himself if the position is worth the pp tradeoff. Using one pp as the step reduces the severity of the penalty quite a bit. This would also remove any incentive to sandbag on the qualifier.

I also have a slight preference for using championship points as the seed value, to provide even less incentive for sandbagging, as well as simplifying race setup.

 

[EERS4YEARS]

I wouldnt ask the pole sitter to subtract more than 5pp, he shouldnt be at a disadvantage. Should do it by rows, not single position. Last 5 or 6 people can have random position at max pp.

 

[Earth]

My recommendation is a variation on option #2:

First, determine seed by one of the following two methods:
1) time trial
2) current points standing

The top 7 places my subtract up to (8 - their seed) from their starting PP. This is entirely optional, but allows them to trade PP for start position.

Example, for a 550pp race:
seed #1: May use a tune with pp from 543 - 550
seed #2: May use a tune with pp from 544 - 550
...
seed #7: May use a tune with pp of 549 or 550
seed #8+: Must use 550pp

This allows the seed winner to decide for himself if the position is worth the pp tradeoff. Using one pp as the step reduces the severity of the penalty quite a bit. This would also remove any incentive to sandbag on the qualifier.

I also have a slight preference for using championship points as the seed value, to provide even less incentive for sandbagging, as well as simplifying race setup.

I like the idea, but only with Time Trial determining the seeds, I don't think the points leader should be given pole position at every track.

I wouldnt ask the pole sitter to subtract more than 5pp, he shouldnt be at a disadvantage. Should do it by rows, not single position. Last 5 or 6 people can have random position at max pp.

If you do it by rows, and have the #1 and #2 seed with the same pp, you risk the fastest guy in the TT randomly starting 2nd every race after he worked his butt off to get pole.

 

[kart racer]

Those guys are very professional

I see they run a free run time trial for qualifying, but how exactly do they set up the grid, by using pp?

If option 2 is chosen, the deadline will be 24 hours before the race starts so the drivers will have plenty of time to know what their pp should be. Those who choose not to submit a time will all be given exactly 2 pp more then the last person who did submit a time.

It works like this:
pole= 646pp
2nd= 646pp
3rd = 647pp
4th = 647pp
5th = 648pp
6th = 648pp
7th = 649pp
8th = 649pp
9th and lower = 649pp
We run 30+ drivers per event, in 3 divisions ( more if needed )
We have 1 race offical that jumps from div to div to make sure the start times do not over lap. No one runs 650pp as this helps us to keep any one not in the event behind the racers.
On a standing start, we end up in the proper rows and rolling starts put us within 1 place of what our Q position is. We try to limit each division to 8 drivers as this seems to work the best.
All Q times must be in 1/2 hr before the drivers meeting at a club house in HOME. This is were you find out your starting position and your pp. Also 1 person is made the division offical and is in charge of the start times.

 

[Earth]

It works like this:
pole= 646pp
2nd= 646pp
3rd = 647pp
4th = 647pp
5th = 648pp
6th = 648pp
7th = 649pp
8th = 649pp
9th and lower = 649pp
We run 30+ drivers per event, in 3 divisions ( more if needed )
We have 1 race offical that jumps from div to div to make sure the start times do not over lap. No one runs 650pp as this helps us to keep any one not in the event behind the racers.
On a standing start, we end up in the proper rows and rolling starts put us within 1 place of what our Q position is. We try to limit each division to 8 drivers as this seems to work the best.
All Q times must be in 1/2 hr before the drivers meeting at a club house in HOME. This is were you find out your starting position and your pp. Also 1 person is made the division offical and is in charge of the start times.

That's a great system, only changes from that to "Option 2" is that drivers who qualify (TT) will have an option when it comes to pp choice as proposed by Vaxen

I don't think we need a driver's meeting yet, the scheduled race times prevent races from running into each other and we have the official GTP chat for anything else. But eventually having a driver's meeting in HOME before the race is something I would like to move to, most likely next season.

There is alot of things drivers can be reminded of before the race

Also, I am seeing a trend in the poll. It appears the veterans of the NTSC Championship are leaning toward Option 2, while the rookies are going for option 3

 

[The Outlaw]

I have a suggestion for determining grid positions 👍 I just went over the format for Round 2 and realized that we will have 4 races per round and 8 drivers per series. Since this is the case, wouldn't it be EASIEST to simply alternate or cycle through starting positions each race? For example, we could have 4 rows of two cars each, with both drivers on a particular row starting side by side with no stagger in starting position. A simple way of determining your starting position throughout the 4 races would be by doing the following:

Each driver is given a number to begin with, in order to determine the starting order for the first race. If you receive a #1, you start P1 for the first race, while with each respective race you move back 1 row on the grid and alternate which side of the grid you start on. For the person who receives a #8 (P8- Row 4) for the first race, they then "cycle" their way to the front of the grid for the SECOND race, again alternating what side they start on.

I didn't take much time to write this out in the most efficient or elaborate manner as I have to run in just a minute...

I personally believe this would be the easiest and fairest solution to the problem though, without getting into qualifying which may be a bit over the top for a few folks who are already competing in many other GTP events (ROC, Team Challenge, EYS, etc.) 👍

 

[Earth]

I have a suggestion for determining grid positions 👍 I just went over the format for Round 2 and realized that we will have 4 races per round and 8 drivers per series. Since this is the case, wouldn't it be EASIEST to simply alternate or cycle through starting positions each race? For example, we could have 4 rows of two cars each, with both drivers on a particular row starting side by side with no stagger in starting position. A simple way of determining your starting position throughout the 4 races would be by doing the following:

Each driver is given a number to begin with, in order to determine the starting order for the first race. If you receive a #1, you start P1 for the first race, while with each respective race you move back 1 row on the grid and alternate which side of the grid you start on. For the person who receives a #8 (P8- Row 4) for the first race, they then "cycle" their way to the front of the grid for the SECOND race, again alternating what side they start on.

I didn't take much time to write this out in the most efficient or elaborate manner as I have to run in just a minute...

I personally believe this would be the easiest and fairest solution to the problem though, without getting into qualifying which may be a bit over the top for a few folks who are already competing in many other GTP events (ROC, Team Challenge, EYS, etc.) 👍

I see what you mean,

For race 1

Driver A 543pp
Driver B 544pp
Driver C 545pp
Driver D 546pp
Driver E 547pp
Driver F 548pp
Driver G 549pp
Driver H 550pp

For race 2

Driver G 543pp
Driver H 544pp
Driver A 545pp
Driver B 546pp
Driver C 547pp
Driver D 548pp
Driver E 549pp
Driver F 550pp

For race 3

Driver E 543pp
Driver F 544pp
Driver G 545pp
Driver H 546pp
Driver A 547pp
Driver B 548pp
Driver C 549pp
Driver D 550pp

For race 4

Driver C 543pp
Driver D 544pp
Driver E 545pp
Driver F 546pp
Driver G 547pp
Driver H 548pp
Driver A 549pp
Driver B 550pp

If option 3 wins the poll the above format that timeattack suggested will be used.

Round 2 is the last round in which the NTSC Championship will use random grid starts

I'm going to implement it for this week. The solution for the rest of the season will be decided in the poll

 

[The Outlaw]

Nice! 👍 I like how you implemented staggered PP for each race. That should make things even more interesting This should be a fun and fair approach to racing

EDIT Here's what I was thinking of...although I think both formats are quite good, this one may make things just a TINY bit more fair

BTW, the two cars on each row are supposed to be parallel to one another on the grid, so that it is basically a drag race to T1, with the driver on the right side having the slight advantage of the inside line. Also, the driver listed first on the row is to start on the left side of the track 👍

RACE 1

Row 1 - PP547

Driver A
Driver B

Row 2 - PP548

Driver C
Driver D

Row 3 - PP549

Driver E
Driver F

Row 4 - PP550

Driver G
Driver H

RACE 2

Row 1 - PP547

Driver H
Driver G

Row 2 - PP548

Driver B
Driver A

Row 3 - PP549

Driver D
Driver C

Row 4 - PP550

Driver F
Driver E

RACE 3

Row 1 - PP547

Driver E
Driver F

Row 2 - PP548

Driver G
Driver H

Row 3 - PP549

Driver A
Driver B

Row 4 - PP550

Driver C
Driver D

RACE 4

Row 1 - PP547

Driver D
Driver C

Row 2 - PP548

Driver F
Driver E

Row 3 - PP549

Driver H
Driver G

Row 4 - PP550

Driver B
Driver A