Old interview, new insight. GT could change America.

[paskowitz]

http://www.vodcars.com/garage419/episode/419_20071211

This was posted by Zer0 in the "Damage in GT slap fight thread". I know it has probably been discussed as it is a very old interview, but in light of all the recent news I think it is a very relevant point of discussion, at least more relevant than half of the other threads out there.

Why is this interview interesting? Well, when asked about damage KY says "damage is built into our milestone", meaning it is on their to do list. Since we have damage confirmed already this is of little importance. But what is more interesting is when weather and night racing is mentioned, to which KY replies, "that is another element we are currently experimenting at our studios, to be developed in the game." To me "currently experimenting" sounds a lot like trying to physically make it a part of the game, thus not confirming its appearance in the final product but confirming its attempt. Its also mentioned in similar terms as damage, thus leading me to believe that along with damage it is at least a WIP or in its final stages.

What is also good to consider is how old this video is (1 year). Since KY said he is "currently experimenting" with weather and TOD effects over a year ago it is safe to assume that actual work on those features had started before that time, which is plenty of development time. This in combination with various winds, the whole Audi videos thing, and other sources leads me to believe that weather and TOD effects are everything but guaranteed for GT5. Sure it may not be dynamic and only static like SCC but thats fine with me. It may just be one or the other.

The second part of this interview I find very interesting is the whole insurance, driver ability, license test discussion. Personally, I think it is a great idea. Sure it would have to be fully thought out and developed and you can't just have every kid who can drive a Nissan GTR in GT5 get his license but with some rules and regulations it could work. PD could make a set of tests that teach the driver to react in conditions that your local DMV instructor not could replicate and are still very important. Such as avoiding a randomly moving oncoming car at speed or braking in the wet (pending weather) on an off camber uphill turn at night (pending TOD effects) or the effects of warn tires. The possibilities are endless. You could also do this with different types of cars (FWD, RWD, AWD, SUVs, sedans etc). Every DMV/drivers ed company could have a couple wheel and pedal set ups (a la playseat evo) for students to take turns on. An instructor would watch, take notes, and provide feedback. All in a safe environment.

This would not replace the standard drivers test, as it is still very important to get out in the real world and drive, but it would at the very least enhance it. GT5 would not even have to be perfectly realistic because its not exactly to what degree each car reacts (as each car and situation is different) but the general movements and reactions that are important. Drivers that pass the GT test would get a special "experienced" mark on their license and of course a small discount on their insurance. What is so great about this is that young drivers could practice the same test when they go home and improve upon their results. And since it is a video game kids would love the task rather than loath it. The GT test could be started at an early age giving very young drivers a head start and maybe even some bragging rights . Again none of this replaces the standard test.

I could be crazy but if something like this were to see the light of day it could BE HUGE! Not just for GT but for Sony and the roads of America as well. There is this episode of Top Gear when James May goes to Finland to learn the ropes of rally driving from Mika Häkkinen. In the middle of the episode James talks about why Finish drivers are so talented. One of the biggest reason is they start at a very early age and their drivers test is very extensive (includes skid pad and lasts for 3 years). While it is not feasible to implement a system that is as inclusive as the Fin's for all of America's 82,500,000 youth, I think a system like GT could be much more cost efficient while still retaining an acceptable level of effectiveness. If you think about the actual cost of drivers accidents in this country (2006 saw a total cost of over $34 billion, a number that is undoubtedly increased), the cost of giving every DMV a couple GT equipped driving machines is nothing. If these machines and a revamped drivers educational system reduced accidents by just 5% it would save the US government well over seven billion dollars a year (and those are just rough numbers and just 5%, I am sure the actual numbers would be much higher). Such a system would probably only cost in the hundreds of millions (maybe even tens). Which, when you put it into perspective is not that much.

In summary the "paskowitz proposal for drivers ed reform" would include:
-Revamped education of students. New techniques including weather conditions, car control, on road variables, car maintenance and car variable. Longer, more comprehensive classes.
-Introduction of the GT license test system. Machines would be given to each driving center. All machines would have the same tests and each test would be approved by various government transportation agencies. They would test students in real world condition that are not logistically feasible or safe for the instructor and driver.
-Cost of machines and more detailed classes offset by savings in safer roads. Less strain on medical, fire and police facilities also reduces cost. More affordable insurance for those that take the (soon to be required) tests. More money for spending as a result.
-Overall economic increase.
-Recession/depression ends and America is awesome again ( ok maybe not )

Again, I am sure there are a 100 reasons that would make this proposal problematic, but, overall I believe it is sound.

Thoughts, opinions, praise, criticism, ideas? 👍

 

[Masi_23]

Not done reading it yet.

I suggest you dissect the bigger paragraphs into small ones. It's a bit hard to read.

*Scrolls back up and attempts to read*

 

[Andrew C]

I KNOW for a fact that videogames have helped me learn to drive. I've been playing with the G25 with the stick since I've gotten the wheel (In Febuary) and in April my dad let me drive his car (an '08 Mini Clubman). Of course it was a stick (Only way to drive a Mini , or any car for that matter ) and I never missed a shift or stalled the car at all, and that was my FIRST time driving a stick. Of course I need practice to get the shifts and starts smoother but it really shows that with the right equipment (PS3, GT5P, G25), you can really kind of learn something virtually. Sooooo, saying that, GT and driving prep could really be effective.

 

[SrRd RacinG]

How long did it take you to write all this?

 

[Twinturbo120]

This is a very good read. This sounds promising and it could help out a lot of people with their driving skills. It would be great if something like this came up but I doubt it will ever happen, the idea is to big.

 

[IsmokeGT]

I suggest you dissect the bigger paragraphs into small ones. It's a bit hard to read.

Bad suggestion. A good paragraph consist of 11-15 sentences.

I personally thought he did what you are supposed to do. He had a beginning, middle, and end. He also explained himself in a logical order, which is very important so you dont get confused.

 

[mu51im]

This is a very good read. This sounds promising and it could help out a lot of people with their driving skills. It would be great if something like this came up but I doubt it will ever happen, the idea is to big.

i think that it will eventually happen but it wont be well recieved and will cause much frustration. from the people i know, most do not have a ps3 or any sort of games console because they either do not want one or cannot afford one.

they will be getting driving lessons at £15-19/hour from someone who is not a qualified nor professional instructor. they will learn to drive in reality, but when they get to the test centre and sit in the simulator machine, will have never experienced that sense of speed before. nor will they have experienced that difference in feel from the controls of a proper car to a game one, and they will crash and not get it right.

then they will fail the test, go home and tell their parents that they crashed on the part of the test which includes playing a game. thats embarassing for them to say and it causes much frustration to the parents.

 

[cicohipe]

i think that it will eventually happen but it wont be well recieved and will cause much frustration. from the people i know, most do not have a ps3 or any sort of games console because they either do not want one or cannot afford one.

they will be getting driving lessons at £15-19/hour from someone who is not a qualified nor professional instructor. they will learn to drive in reality, but when they get to the test centre and sit in the simulator machine, will have never experienced that sense of speed before. nor will they have experienced that difference in feel from the controls of a proper car to a game one, and they will crash and not get it right.

then they will fail the test, go home and tell their parents that they crashed on the part of the test which includes playing a game. thats embarassing for them to say and it causes much frustration to the parents.

Well like anything im sure they would get to do some practice before being tested, that's just silly. Plus OP's whole point was so that it would be in addition to the normal driving test, like a virtual defensive/offensive driving course. Which personally sounds like a fantastic idea.

I think if it did happen it would simply be a certificate you would receive upon successful completion and could then help get you reduced licencing costs, insurance, etc.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

In the UK there is a simulated theory test, i don't know much about it because i did mine infront of a pc.

 

[Slurm]

There's no doubt that this game could help people learn to drive. I doubt games will be officially included in license tests though.

And for any "tl;dr" types, at least this is actually a valid point of discussion with a couple of sources!!

 

[dbarrade]

Excellent article Paskowitz. I imagine that GT Planet could evolve into a GT/Motorsport Ezine which I would be an avid reader if the articles were half the quality of this.

I've seen lots of comments about people no longer buying magazines because they get all the news and info they need from the web, but rarely are the articles as informative or researched as yours clearly was.

With regards to learning to drive on GT, I'm really hoping there will be some clutch related licenses in GT5 for us G25 owners, particularly I need to learn how to heel and toe and would prefer the license test environment to give me a goal and feedback as to when I am getting it correct.

I'd also like to see more gymkhana with perhaps a handbrake turn license test, precision driving and braking on wet surfaces at both low and high speeds and even a skid pan.

 

[newnikita]

...
-Introduction of the GT license test system. Machines would be given to each driving center...

I don't find this useful. At least in my opinion and what I see from family and friends, the problem to get the driving license first and driving experience later is not the control of the car, starting the vehicle, changing gears and cornering is the easy part. In real life you have to drive "slow", don't take corners at max speed, overtake only on straight lines... The problem is following the traffic rules, using the seat belts and lights properly, mirrors... And for all of that you don't need to simulate the weight, power, balance and behaviour of the vehicle.

In short, I don't know anyone that failed the driving exam because of his driving style, but yes because he forgot the STOP sign.

 

[Timppaq]

I don't find this useful. At least in my opinion and what I see from family and friends, the problem to get the driving license first and driving experience later is not the control of the car, starting the vehicle, changing gears and cornering is the easy part. In real life you have to drive "slow", don't take corners at max speed, overtake only on straight lines... The problem is following the traffic rules, using the seat belts and lights properly, mirrors... And for all of that you don't need to simulate the weight, power, balance and behaviour of the vehicle.

In short, I don't know anyone that failed the driving exam because of his driving style, but yes because he forgot the STOP sign.

But when you dont need to worry about handling the car, there's more time & resources to worry about the STOP signs, and following the traffic rules. So I think it could be helpful 👍

 

[paskowitz]

Thanks for all the positive comments.

SrRd,
This took me about 30-60 minutes to think and type up, so not too bad.

mu51im,
Again, like I said the "GT test" is only a supplement, an enhancement, to the actual physical drivers test. I am full aware that actual real world driving experience is needed. In fact I think the amount of time a student is required to spend driving with their parents should be doubled.

dbarrade,
Now that is what I call praise. Thank you.

newnikita,
Again, some response as mu51im, none of this would replace the requirement for actual driving. All this is meant to do is simulate dangerous or unique driving situations in a safe, controlled and repeatable environment (which is not possible in the real world).

 

[phil-t]

I think the idea of using video games to 'learn' is quite relevant, however GT is quite limited in what it can offer, but would be able to do the 'car control' stuff quite reasonably (if weather is implemented).

The other notable game that would allow a more simulated environment would be TDU, this had a lot of traffic/pedestrians etc, and simulated traffic flow and was quite well suited to learning lane discipline etc.

 

[Devedander]

There's no doubt that this game could help people learn to drive. I doubt games will be officially included in license tests though.

And for any "tl;dr" types, at least this is actually a valid point of discussion with a couple of sources!!

I think any kind of practice will help you learn to drive. Sitting in a char with two books on the floor (representing gas and brake) and holding a fake steering wheel in the air while someone watches and instructs you can help you learn to drive to some extent.

I think playing most driving games help you learn how to drive to some extent, and things like GT to a greater extent than something like say Dirt or Mario Kart.

I think some kind of driving simulator would be valuable in driving tests for sure. In fact back when I was younger and playing 4D driving, I thought that kitted with stoplights and other traffic and turns etc, that would be an awesome driving education device.

Even better if you could combine eye tracking to see where the person is looking. I am convinced some people just never look at the areas they should (ie where street signs are, or more than half a block ahead).

 

[fasj6418]

Great post. I see it as this being an option in the future. KY dreams about this, and i'm sure he loves everytime his work is taking seriously.

In my country you have to do 30 hours of lessons before taking the test to get a license.

Maybe in the future, GT DMV's edition could be an alternative to eliminate 4-5 of those 30 hours, if you wanted.

I guess that's a start, and a very reasonable one.

 

[Joey D]

I do not like the idea of having a game be part of the instruction for driver's training. America already has a rather lame driver's education programme and a video game would only attract more idiots I think. A computer screen and steering wheel will never replace or even remotely be a substitute for actual real world experience. Especially GT which isn't at the level to be truly realistic, not to mention the input devices themselves are there yet either. This goes for any game on the market, don't think I'm bashing GT here.

Instead of driver's education companies putting millions into simulation programmes, they should put it into skid pad training, defensive driving, etc. I think that would be a better allocation of resources. Maybe if the driver's education programme was better in America a simulated portion would be a good way to introduce new concepts, but until then I think we should just leave them for entertainment purposes.

 

[paskowitz]

I do not like the idea of having a game be part of the instruction for driver's training. America already has a rather lame driver's education programme and a video game would only attract more idiots I think. A computer screen and steering wheel will never replace or even remotely be a substitute for actual real world experience. Especially GT which isn't at the level to be truly realistic, not to mention the input devices themselves are there yet either. This goes for any game on the market, don't think I'm bashing GT here.

Instead of driver's education companies putting millions into simulation programmes, they should put it into skid pad training, defensive driving, etc. I think that would be a better allocation of resources. Maybe if the driver's education programme was better in America a simulated portion would be a good way to introduce new concepts, but until then I think we should just leave them for entertainment purposes.

In part I actually agree with you. Real world experience is irreplaceable and required. But giving every DMV a skid pad or expecting every kids family to pay for a drivers ed course that has a skid pad is not going to happen. Not to mention the effects are totally different depending on the car. It would simply cost too much money to effectively implement. I agree GT still needs a little more work physics wise, but its almost there. Who knows this could happen when GT6 comes out. As far as the wheels go, I think they are pretty damn good. Sure not as good as the real thing (thats impossible) but pretty close. The whole idea is not to have a perfect recreation but to cost effectively teach students that when you start to fish tail on a wet surface steer the direction you want the car to go (countersteer) and so on. Just to put them through the motions and the mind set in a way they can visually and physically understand.

 

[dbarrade]

Actually I believe MS Flight Simulator is used in some flight training, yet having had some experience with MS Flight Simulator using a decent joystick, pedals and throttle, and then having flying lessons and flying that same plane (an Ultralight Technam similar to a small Cessna) in real life, I find GT using a G25 to be a far more accurate representation of what is required to control a motor vehicle than MS Flight Simulator is of controlling an aircraft.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Regardless of the training people receiving their license for the first time get, the old fogies of the world, for the next 30-40 years at least, will still be turning right in front of you and causing crashes at the Wal-Mart intersection every freaking week!

(40+ words in 1 sentence)

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

Well...i mean who wouldnt want to time attack the nurburgring in gordons monte carlo....

Which is exactly what i will be doing.

 

[Nomino]

Actually I believe MS Flight Simulator is used in some flight training, yet having had some experience with MS Flight Simulator using a decent joystick, pedals and throttle, and then having flying lessons and flying that same plane (an Ultralight Technam similar to a small Cessna) in real life, I find GT using a G25 to be a far more accurate representation of what is required to control a motor vehicle than MS Flight Simulator is of controlling an aircraft.

Maybe that's what you found, but I know somebody who pilots for a major airline, and he has done said MS Flight Sim training. I've asked him this before, and he said that while it was obviously not the same as flying a plane, it was 100% accurate in terms of that particular aspect of flight training.

Sitting at a desk with decent joystick, pedals and throttle for a flight sim is no more or less realistic than sitting at a desk in front of a decent steering wheel for a racing game. Neither subject you to the G forces and other physical attributes that you experience during the real deal, so are just an approximation of control. Nothing more, nothing less.