Online racing - the hard part

[LeadSlead#2]

With all the talk going on about what we do/don't want, and what we will/won't see, it seems everybody has forgotten how much GT5 will change online racing.
Now, I presume we will be able to actually race each other, in packs of at least 6, likely more, online, right?
But will it be what everyone expects? will there be jittery glitches as there are now at the start of races, and when to many cars are close together? will some people be reckless and take you out constantly? and my main concern, PASSING. how are you going to pass people? I'm not saying it'll be impossible, but how many of us have gotten to practice passing skilled drivers? how touchy will the damage be? how skittish will the grass make your car? will people still want to see racers disqualified for going off into the grass? and likewise, with wall-touches? what is people think the damage isnt sensitive enough?
Just looking for any and all thoughts, opinions, whatever comes to mind.

 

[Tenacious D]

Online racing is always problematic. I'd imagine that there's going to be a ranking system so that you can tag noobs and tards like you can here with bad rep, so that the knotheads and troublemakers can be easily identified. Sony is evidently spending a lot on internet infrastructure, and have been for a few years now, so hopefully the only issues will be with the grass and IDing the lamers.

 

[Dave A]

There is no total cure for the online fool, ie the person that decides to bash people or drive the wrong way etc but you can limit the experience with player rankings and such. You can improve the experience by increasng the number of options, for example, you should be able to toggle each flag on or off, power limits, car limts, drive train limits, model year limits, qualifying on or off and how long you have for qualifying etc. Just give the player the otions to setuip the online game as he wants.

 

[Dimitrov]

The simple issue is technological. Connections, protocols, positional reference, input exchange and many other terms fits into online playing.

The complex issue is part of us. As said before, there is one thing that cannot be fixed or patched: human stupidity.


But, live4speed, one thing that can bash those online kiddies out shall be the penalty system.

First: penalty in-race: 5 secs, 10 secs, 20 secs, 30 secs, 1 min...

Second: The online stuff shall work like a LICENSE TEST. If you compete 20 races, you earn B Online Racing License. More 30 with skilled drivers, A Online Racing License. And so on...

This will surely separate Super License Online from B License Online, thus improving the players' capacity to play better and correctly, making each race a good piece of fun.

Third: Revoking Licenses
Crashing too much (Yuji Ideing other players) or just being reported too much times makes the players License downgraded. From iA to iB to A to B to zero.

Start again, man. Back to the Online License center.

 

[harley7]

with real drivers as opposed to AI drivers, passing the skilled drivers will be very hard. i bet there will be a lot of disconnects, since if you make a mistake, unless everyone ahead of you also makes one, you will never catch up (assuming all cars are reasonably similar in performance). that will be a little frustrating, but that is realistic.

 

[Dimitrov]

with real drivers as opposed to AI drivers, passing the skilled drivers will be very hard. i bet there will be a lot of disconnects, since if you make a mistake, unless everyone ahead of you also makes one, you will never catch up (assuming all cars are reasonably similar in performance). that will be a little frustrating, but that is realistic.

Well...

Sony Server automated S-Spec shall assume your car driving when you got disconnected.

You have 5 minutes to log in again and retake your car's wheels. Choose a nice place to control again, like a straight, press X, Screen says: "Full Throttle" just like a rolling start and we are done.

Back to the game.

 

[gregc]

Firstly...

Crashing too much (Yuji Ideing other players)

- nice one 👍

On the face of it I quite like the idea of an online racing license, but can you imagine coming to the game after it's been out for 6 months, as a newbie, and you've hardly got anyone to race with because all the serious racers have already got the super-duper license? If it was me I'd get put off by a lack of serious racers that I could learn from by racing with them.

The whole online thing (ignoring the technical difficulties) still, for me, comes down to the human factor. What will make online work is probably going to be clans/groups/call them what you will, and knowing the people you like racing with. This is happening now in Toca 3 - there are a number of organised groups who race together, and the groups also have a healthy respect for each other, and race each other every now and then. The popular ones are all based on racing clean, and welcome newbies to their open races with open arms.

As for knowing people - that happens by chance, and you soon get a picture of who is good to race with and who isn't. A good example, again from Toca - a few nights ago I was hosting a Civic race that started out with me and a couple of mates. A few people joined in and pretty quickly we had a full room. As a result of running that series I now know 2 guys that I'd look out for because they're fun to race with (more or less at the same level, good clean courteous racers, and a good laugh too) and also two guys who I will avoid like the plague because they are, well, I can't say - it'll just get censored

Errr, sorry, I'm rambling a bit, but basically - the technology of course needs to be right, but for me it's the community that will really determine how well online works.

 

[Dave A]

Base rank players on their average position over the last 20 races, that way, if your always winning, you go up a rank and race better racers, if your always driving the wrong way or trying to crash into people you will forever remain in the bottom class. When your in the next rank, if your always winning you again, move up a rank, and again and again. If you base the average position over the last 20 races in your current rank, then when you go up a rank the slat is wiped clean so tospeak and you have at least another 20 races to rank up or down. I would combine this with a report system whereby if a player should rank up solely to start smashing into other players in a higher rank and piss them off, you could tby means of reporting them have them ranked back down, and repeat offenders have the number of races the average is taken over, doubled, thus doubling the minimum time it would take for them to rank up, each time they repeat the offence.

Ofcourse, there should be ranked and un-ranked servers, and servers where players of a certain rank can join only but will not affect thier ranking. This would accomodate high ranking players deciding to get together and just have some fun if driftinmg around sections of a track or whatever, but doing things that they've all agreed upon, that in a ranked server, would negatively affect thier rank.

 

[SavageEvil]

Online racing will be easy to get into, GT has pretty much the largest following, just come to the boards and set up times, comps and everything. The internet helps you connect quite easily, hopefully we can get things up and running once GT5 is released.

 

[Dimitrov]

Ofcourse, there should be ranked and un-ranked servers, and servers where players of a certain rank can join only but will not affect thier ranking. This would accomodate high ranking players deciding to get together and just have some fun if driftinmg around sections of a track or whatever, but doing things that they've all agreed upon, that in a ranked server, would negatively affect thier rank.

Perhaps something like Diablo 2 Battle.net. There you could play in open Battle.Net with cheated chars and do everything. In closed Battle.net your character (your garage?) is controlled by server, just like your rankings and else (imagine a nice set of stats where we all can see how each other performs in a determinated circuit, rates of win/loss, passings, X-Spec points...)

Also we used to play with Hardcore characters. In Diablo 2 a Hardcore character gets dead and done. It is dead. No way to resurrect. Regulars always could be resurrected.

An analogy would be the implementation of DAMAGE in online playing. Hardcore players DO damage their cars in online races. Regular players don't.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Base rank players on their average position over the last 20 races, that way, if your always winning, you go up a rank and race better racers, if your always driving the wrong way or trying to crash into people you will forever remain in the bottom class. When your in the next rank, if your always winning you again, move up a rank, and again and again[...]Combine this with a report system whereby if a player should rank up solely to start smashing into other players in a higher rank and piss them off, you could tby means of reporting them have them ranked back down, and repeat offenders have the number of races the average is taken over, doubled, thus doubling the minimum time it would take for them to rank up, each time they repeat the offence.

Good ideas, but the reporting thing is a lame option. Picture this, you're racing in an open race with a bunch of people from a clan and you blow every last one of them out of the water... Or maybe even just this one guy who thinks he's Michael Adretti and simply for beating him, he flags your account. This kind of crap happens all the time in the online world... No body ever shoots you unless he's a glitcher, and nobody ever beats you in a race unless he's a cheater... Simply having flags would solve this problem... Real flags that the computer/server keeps track of... Maybe not warnings, as sometime even the best of us can run the grass from time to time, but real flags could be tracked and your ranking suffers accordingly. Using TOCA as an example, the stand alone game, not the online as I’ve never really gotten the chance to play all that much online with it. If you drive the wrong way, you’re sent home for reckless, take the grass too many times, you’re DNQ for using the grass as an advantage, crashing and seriously bumping other cars and you’re flagged for reckless… Simple enough really...

NOW!!! Assuming that there will be damages... What about online crash up derby servers..?

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I see good ideas, but I have to agree with Canadian Speed.

And what about the grass? hopefully PD will give penalties for say, cutting an s-curve to pass somebody. Fuji - 80's (or 90's?) cutting through the grass at 120mph saves a lotta time. hopefully you'll get black flagged. but what if you don't?
What about accidental "offs"? what if I just swing wide in a turn, get 3-4 tires in the grass, but don't hit anything solid? IRL, I'd keep racing, and I'll want to with GT5 too.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Well in TOCA you have to gain some advantage by doing so... So if you break and then come back on in a safe manner, you don't get a flag. You get a warning and I think it only lasts for so long too... So if you go off slightly early in a 20 lap race, it's not like if you do it again slightly in the 20th, you'll get flagged and get DQed...

However, if we want to play the "what if they don't" game, there are far worse things that people could be doing and not getting nailed for... It'll just ruin certain tracks and when people make their online games, they'll simply not play on Tokyo 80, but on the one without the chicane... Petty of some people, but there are ways around it... I think that this chicane and the one really sharp corner at Nurb (where you can cut over the grass) are the really only bad parts where this would make a difference...

Also, the grass cutting could be enforced not by penalties, but by realistic grass physics... Like in TOCA, if you hit the grass doing 120 MPH, you aren't keeping your car straight for very long, and if you can get back on at full speed your wheels are spinning so much that you end up peeling out in a big way... Same for gravel traps, which TOCA does better as well...

As a side note... I wonder what competitive online racing is going to do for online settings posts. If you have a killer set up and play competetively, are you going to give up your killer setting?

 

[Nismo_GTR]

I think PD is still struggling with ideas on how to improve online play, i personaly guess they still dont have a clue, since that should explain why they did not add this functionality to GT4

 

[SavageEvil]

I think PD is still struggling with ideas on how to improve online play, i personaly guess they still dont have a clue, since that should explain why they did not add this functionality to GT4

That was because GT4 requied massive amounts of data to be shuffled back and forth and they just didn't have the time to make it work feasibly without dropping to mediocrity, so it was nixed. I read that Kaz said that the infrastructure was ready and that they will be testing out Online components for GT4 sometime in the near future.

 

[greenlightning]

Regardless of how they set-up the online play. The first few weeks or what ever that most people try it will most likely have very mixed online experiences. Meaning it will take time to get used to racing will human opponents and it will take time to find onces that you want to race with on a regular basis. I am certain that race clubs or divisions will be formed even if it is just through these forums. Just hope that that they include as many settings as possible. Oh and disconnects for whatever reason should just be DQ but race continues for rest. Also think that the creater of the race should maybe have option at end of race to upload race standings to league standing boards etc.

 

[Nismo_GTR]

dont expect everything to be true, if they say that they are still struggling on how to improve the online play, that would eventualy be bad for the marketing strategy, wouldn't it?
just my guess guys...

 

[Canadian Speed]

Very true, as would admitting that they won't have damage and all of the other things that they've been promissing for so long...

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm curious how many people won't buy GT5 if it doesn't have damage, or GT HD if it gets released this holiday season. I'm stuck playing Forza still, it's an awesome game and all, but I have to tell you damage freaks that I just don't get it. Big deal, you can damage your car, who cares? Mr Restart Button makes it instantly better.

Maybe when I start up a new profile I'll turn damage on full, but if my engine takes damage when I peg the rev limiter once or twice, or if the bots wage war, that's going to last all of five seconds. Same thing goes for GT5, especially online with smacktard kids.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Forza damage is not that cool... TOCA 3 damage is pretty neat...

 

[Tee-Jay]

Good ideas, but the reporting thing is a lame option. Picture this, you're racing in an open race with a bunch of people from a clan and you blow every last one of them out of the water... Or maybe even just this one guy who thinks he's Michael Adretti and simply for beating him, he flags your account. u’re flagged for reckless… Simple enough really...

i know this is going back to an older post, but what if when you had to submit the report, you had to include photo evidence of when they made contact with you.....this would work like 'best photo' in TT, except when you go to look at the photos, it opens up all the times in the perticular race when cars made contact with each other.

 

[Canadian Speed]

/\/\/\ In theory this could work, but it'd be pretty hard to do for an online game... And if the numbers are correct, as in 12+ cars, that's a lot of info for a game to keep track of given the variables that it already has to deal with... Not a bad idea, but an auto flag system would be the easiest way to go... Picture this, two racers are batteling for position... Like in the regualr mode, the computer decides who's in the higher postion (i.e 1st and 2nd). If contact is made, the player in the lower postion is now tagged with either an incidental or an intentional flag. If there is damage it could simply be "no harm, no foul". However if there isn't any damages, it could simply be like the licence tests, where the computer assignes a stard value for contact, at which point the according level of flag will be issued... It's really pretty simple... Not that I don't like your idea, I just think this would be really hard to do... And as cool as a full race replay would be as well, I doubt that would happen either unfortunatly...

 

[Dave A]

I agree with Canadian speed's reply to my post, it makes the most sense and even though it might not be 100% every time it'll be a lot fairer than some guy holding a grudge because you beat him.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I don't know all the rules for any racing league. but I do know in American CART, if You're in 2nd, and come to my inside, entering a corner, and you're halfway up my side, I have to give you room on the inside. Therefore, if there's contact, because I didnt give you enough room to keep racing, it is my fault, as it should be.(my opinion) But if you slide up into me, it is your fault, as it should be. I don't forsee this as possible for the game to make interactive intelligent decisions.

Also, I've seen so many cars bouncing off rev-limiters many, many times without breaking, new and old, fast and slow, I'll freak if it happens in GT5.

 

[JohnBM01]

Here is my "hard part" to all of this. Can you actually be certain that online racers are going to be more fair than the bot AI? Can I be sure that if I raced against someone down the street from me or on another side of town, that the racer won't be a Burnout "fanboy" trying to kill me every chance the driver gets? And I've never believed in the theory of "online racing will make AI an obsolete subject." The game still has to be challenging offline as opposed to online play. Only if playing against others is better fundamentally and in terms of gameplay, then online gaming should be a must. My issue is about people and all the AI claims. I am a people person. My usual first focus is people. People first. Everything else later.

LeadSlead#2, I honor your thinking of mechanical elements of Gran Turismo rather than "no online play = no GT5 = no PS3" like most other people like to do or say. There's something I always say about road racing. I say that you can't NASCAR your way through road racing. Do you know what I mean when I state that? It means that for one thing, passing shouldn't be a stupid marketing excuse. Passing has, and always will be, a talent, not a given. It's obvious that against human racers, most human racers aren't completely predictable as the AI at times. You will face subjects which have enhanced racing talent and fiercer competition than offline. I always see passing as a skill. Unless the cars aren't very good in drafting situations or if your 100% doesn't stack up against the other competitors, then passing becomes a problem. I've always feared that there would be a learning curve when battling human opponents as opposed to online opponents. I'm not the best GT gamer, but I at least want to be against others who are on my level or lower. Sometimes, the ESRB notice for online games state something similar to "Online Experience May Change During Gameplay." That's because you may match up against someone with a foul attitude and a mentality of driving you off the track to your downfall. The first instinct for any racer is to learn your opposition. If you are matched up against hard-pressed competition who race hard and don't lose very often, then you need to step your game up. You dig? Don't think that online gaming is going to be easier than offline gaming. Again, assume nothing. Human competitors usually mean tougher opposition because you are against racers who are tougher to figure out and more human.

Simply put, online gaming will only make GT's challenge even more fierce. GT gamers will need to step their game up in a collective effort to be the best in the world. The hardest part is going to be the people because people are obviously the "X" factor. No, actually driver skill will be the variable factor. People would be the constant variable. Driver + driver skill will SURELY be the "X" factor EVERY online gamer will need to take note of if they want to show the world why he/she is good rather than just saying it online.

 

[Dave A]

I can be sure that there's certian games with certain people or clans where races are done properly.

 

[NismoR34Ztune]

where CERTAIN races are done properly

 

[LeadSlead#2]

And I've never believed in the theory of "online racing will make AI an obsolete subject." The game still has to be challenging offline as opposed to online play.

behold, JohnBMO1 and LeadSlead#2 are in agreement.
this is either very good, or very, very bad. just watch the sky. just watch the sky
I look forward to the massive challenge of racing other people. I've seen many very good racers on this site, and am sure there are others on other sites too.
I just expect that races will need to be much longer than 5 laps. 12th (or 20th) to 1st is a long way when you're all that good.
and as much as I enjoy running for a great lap, I'll be thankful when there's no more need for single lap challenges,(though im sure they'll still be around) and we can just race, and nobody can push to hard, and restart for 10 hrs going ballistic for that 1 perfect lap. I also think I'll do better than I do now because of that. but I may be wrong too. only time will tell.

 

[Dave A]

I agree online shouldn't make AI and the offline game obsolete, online should be an extra way to experince the game to offline, not a way that will replace offline.

 

[NismoR34Ztune]

my thoughts exactly.....