Organic Food

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Danoff

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I have to admit I got this topic from John Stossel's book.

Are you afraid of chemicals in your food???

Do you only buy organic?

Did you know that organic food generally contains more bacteria and fewer nutrients. Did you know that it takes up more land on farms? Did you know that the chemicals found in non-organic food won't hurt you, and that in most cases they are better for you?

So it's not as good for you, it's not as good for the environemnt, and it cost more. Sounds like a marketing ploy to me.

What do you think?
 
the organic apples at the local grocery store here are generally bigger and more juicy and taste a bit better. That's about the only reason we buy them. The rest of the organic stuff is just too damn expensive to bother with.

I don't mind non-organic because I *do* mind eating food that has been shat on by cows for fertilizer :P
 
I buy some items at an organic food coop, if the quality is better than I can get at the supermarket, or if it's not available. But I'd never buy stuff there just because it's an organic food coop.

But as far as meat and things go, I'd much rather eat steak from a cow that was fed antibiotics, etc. to keep it healthy than I would from an organically grown cow. I've worked with cows in real life, and I know how hard it can be to keep them healthy even with medicines.

And the whole issue of hormones and genetic modification has to be the most misunderstood and most needless-panic inducing topic in the food and drug industry. You should hear some of the crap my sister's boyfriend spouts about the evils of BGH and genetically-manipulated corn.
 
It amazes me that science has done all that it has for us - doubling our lifespan and reducing infant mortality rates - and people still have an innate distrust of chemicals.

News flash, chemicals are the reason we live longer and healthier than 50 years ago.

Example, people freak out about using "unnatural" fertilizer rather than straight up cow crap. What's the difference? Mostly Nitrogen.

The air you breathe is mostly Nitrogen.

The thing that got me about the organic food was that they found a lot more bacteria on the organic food because it's grown in "natural" fertilizer. Crap has a lot of bacteria in it. Bacteria makes lots of people sick every year - pesticides (which farmers get exposed to in huge quantities) haven't been shown to make anyone sick. Yet we freak out about pesticides a lot more than bacteria.


Genetic manipulation is a way to grow more food in the same amount of space. If you're an environmentalist wacko, you should like that farms can do more with less.
 
I refuse to buy organic foods.

I also refuse to shop in any supermarket which has taken a corporate decision not to stock "genetically modified" foods.
 
the problem with genetic manipulation is that we stil don't have a thorough understanding of what the long term effects of GM foods are on the human body. As far as chemicals go however, it really doesn't bother me so long as they're safe (for the most part, they are)
 
For the most part my pocketbook dictates what kind of food I buy. In my experience, organic food cost more for no good reason.

I have recently developed a love for hydrogenated oils. A yummy bowl of crisco for a midnight snack really hits the spot.
 
My mom doesn't go out of her way to get organic food, but if something she buys happens to be organic, so be it. For example, every once in a while she'll buy me soymilk (I don't have anything against regular milk, and I drink a lot of the stuff, but it's good to have a change of pace now and then), and it so happens that most of the soymilk companies sell only organic products, so, yeah. Same with yogurt – there's a particular brand that we both like, and incidentally the company produces organic products, but that's not why we buy it in the first place.
 
the_undrtaker89
organic toothpaste works better than reg toothpast in my opinion. Also it doesn't leave that weird taste in your mouth.
Yeah, I hate that minty fresh taste after I brush my teeth. You could also just use baking soda.
 
My parents think organic food tastes so much better and always buy any and all organic food. I tell them all the time it's a waste of money, but they think "pesticides" are harmful. I cant get it through their heads that it is not practical. But GMO food might become a problem.
 
My parents think organic food tastes so much better and always buy any and all organic food. I tell them all the time it's a waste of money, but they think "pesticides" are harmful. I cant get it through their heads that it is not practical. But GMO food might become a problem.

Try telling them they're more likely to get sick from bacteria. (not that I'm trying to imply they are actually likely to get sick from the bacteria) Why might GMO food become a problem?





...as for the toothpaste. What's the advantage of organic? Certainly not the lack of "minty fresh" taste.
 
danoff
Why might GMO food become a problem?
we still don't know what the long term effects of this are on the human body. For example, gm'ing certain foods may create protien strains that the body may not be able to handle over periods of time - similar to those toxins from like 5 to 10 years ago that caused a massive scare and messed up several animals (ddt or something like that?)

In addition to that, GMO foods are made to grow fast and grow big. That could cause major havoc in the ecosystem if the seeds start to spread around and get pollinated

Also, there's a religious/dietary standpoint as well. There's vegetarians/vegans and people whose religions require that they don't eat certain types of meat or no meat at all. A lot of GMO foods have animal genes put into them. I'm not 100% strict about eating non halaal/kosher foods but I still refuse to eat pork. A lot of GMO foods have pig genes. Everytime I eat a GMO food, I start to wonder what exactly I'm eating because it's no longer just 100% tomato/apple/whatever - there's something else mixed into it.
 
I remember the big scare during the mid-early 80's when people claimed the foaming agents in toothpaste caused cancer.

My mom went nuts, and bought us baking soda to brush our teeth with. It scared me for life. It isn't that bad, but when brushing with those minty toothpastes for years, then swithching to baking soda was a dramatic difference.

I enjoy geneticly altered foods. But, they don't taste the same. For some strange reason, the smaller fruits and vegetables tasted better. But, I can be a picky som' b*tch when it comes to my food.

Today, I enjoyed my usual fruit-vegie drink along with some grapes. They were the size of ping pong balls, I kid you not. We used to buy strawberries, but they have gotten so big that when they are put in baskets, the weight of these huge monsters often bruise each other. Therefore, they don't last as very long, and often spoil before you get a chance to eat some. I also no longer buy corn on the cobb, because it tastes like candy.

See, I told you I was picky.
 
I don't like buying organic foods, because its a waste of money and it doesn't taste that different. But when you grow your on fruits and vegetables it tastes so much better. Onions for example are way juicier when u pluck them out of the ground.
 
I buy what is there. Though i am slightly worried about the ramifications of GM plants. The problem isn't that i think it will have adverse effects on me, the problem is more economic. Also it can have adverse environmental effects that we do not expect, the use of them should be well thought out, or else you may have a issue similar to introducing foreign animals to an environment (one example is the introduction of bullfrogs in Aus).
 
Interesting how many people here that poison isn't bad for you, or that bacteria are scary little things you have to keep away of. You can handle a lot of bacteria and they keep your immune system in shape. More and more people develop allergies because of exaggerated hygiene.

I'm certainly not saying organic food is always better for you - that's absolutely not always true. But overal, in terms of growth rate (we are experts over here at cultivating vegetables like tomatoes that grow really fast and taste like water), pollution (pesticides go everywhere, building up in your body directly as well as indirectly through the environment), they are already an improvement. I generally buy them when the supermarket has them - (more and more often, which is good because I'm too lazy to go look for a special store).

At the same time, there is support here apparently for cattle farming using tonnes of anti-biotics and growth hormone. The first causes allergies and promotes multi-resistant bacteria that increasingly plague hospitals. The second causes girls who eat a high amount of meat to grow breasts at the age of nine.

I share Emads standpoints on GM food - we have to be very careful. I don't think GM is necessarily a bad thing - cultivation has already reached a very high level (already many vegetables are a lot sweeter than 10 years ago), and GM can make cultivation more efficient. But the impact of some changes has to be carefully researched - we're still dealing with something extremely fundamental here and spores of plants travel fast and far. We have to be careful so that we use this valuable technology to create opportunities where they previously couldn't (grow more food / replant Africa) instead of creating damage that we may very well not be able to ever undo (disrupting the natural balance).

Commercial interests are pushing for a much quicker introduction of GM foods than care warrants, in my opinion.

A big mistake is the 'takes up more land' / 'bad for the environment' translation. It also takes less out of the environment (not as many minerals from the soil, etc.), takes less suppliments (as in manure, etc.), and so on. The only real question here is direct health benefits over pesticides and artificially stimulated growth, which aren't always as clear as you'd like them to be. But the overal picture is pretty clear imho.

I think if people went back to eating 150 grams of meat per week (which is all you need to get the required nutrients), we'd have plenty of space for a more healthy food production than we do now.
 
Interesting how many people here that poison isn't bad for you, or that bacteria are scary little things you have to keep away of. You can handle a lot of bacteria and they keep your immune system in shape.

Of course, medically bacteria is responsible for lots of damage - show me where pesticides employed at farms today have been linked to health problems.

At the same time, there is support here apparently for cattle farming using tonnes of anti-biotics and growth hormone. The first causes allergies and promotes multi-resistant bacteria that increasingly plague hospitals. The second causes girls who eat a high amount of meat to grow breasts at the age of nine.

If you can prove the second part, they have grounds for a lawsuit. The first point is really weak. Anti-biotics of all kinds promote multi-resistant bacteria due to natural selection. Does that mean we should stop using anti-biotics? Certainly not.

But the impact of some changes has to be carefully researched - we're still dealing with something extremely fundamental here and spores of plants travel fast and far. We have to be careful so that we use this valuable technology to create opportunities where they previously couldn't (grow more food / replant Africa) instead of creating damage that we may very well not be able to ever undo (disrupting the natural balance).

Of course, wrap up all technological advancements in as much red tape and committee discussion as possible. That way we can decide whether new technology is good based on our current perception of the world rather than see the results of human ingenuity that brought us everything we have so far.

You should really read Anthem by Ayn Rand. She has a section in there where people who sound just like you talk about how the invention of the light bulb will put candle makers out of work.
 
My family usually buys a combination of organic and non-organic food. It usually depends on what we're having for dinner, and how fresh it is. We almost always have organic vegetables and some produce.
 
danoff
Of course, medically bacteria is responsible for lots of damage - show me where pesticides employed at farms today have been linked to health problems.

Organophosphates/nvCJD.

But I still wouldn't buy "organic" - even if paid to. Not least because, in this country at least, you're not required to do anything different to slap an "organic" tag onto your products. If it is or was living, you can say it's "organic"...
 
Actually there are rules as to how things can be declared organic. Especially in the lines of livestock. But how/whether these rules are enforced is another thing.
 
danoff
Care to elaborate?

No. :D

Organophosphate use was implicated in the genesis of a new form of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy which persisted into humans (as the so-called "new variant Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease" - sometimes referred to as just vCJD, without the "new"), as far back as 1992.

Now, as far as I'm aware, there's never been a paper which has either confirmed this "link" or disproved it. However organophosphate use is now banned in the UK - but the effects of that on BSE/vCJD prevelance cannot be determined as several (hundred) other safety measures have been put in place.

Sadly - :( - as I no longer have access to BIDS or WoS, I can't pull any papers to check on this, but the theory was still "active" in 1997 when I was required to write about it for my BSc. You didn't ask for cast iron causes though - only cases where pesticide use was linked to health problems.
 
I can give you two cases. Last year, the health inspection service discovered large quantities of poison in both red grapes and spinach, from pesticide use. On the grapes, the poison wasn't just on the outside, but the prolonged use of pesticides had infected the ground and the poison had entered the grapes that way. We have very strict checks on this, but never the less one or two supermarkets kept selling them as long as a year after. This is partly why the use of pests' natural enemies (e.g. lady bugs against lice) has become a very popular alternative to pesticides. Though funnily enough this has other ramifications too - for instance Japanese lady bugs have been very popular for this, but escape and turn out to do quite well in our natural habitat, so that they threaten to supplant the native species. Since the native species is a little more friendly to humans (the multi-coloured Asian ones tend to build large nests inside houses, for one), they are now looking to use that one instead.

Poison builds up in your body in several ways and has many long term effects. Research of mother milk has shown that pesticides and many other sorts of pollution build up in women's breasts for instance and can even be traced back into mother milk. This has reached such an extent that the advantages of mother milk (transference of bacterial resistance, good hormones and such) are canceled out by this pollution and articifially produced baby milk is now considered at least as healthy as mother milk, because although it doesn't hold the advantages of mother's milk, it also doesn't hold the disadvantages.

Intestinal cancer is another result from extended exposure to pesticides. This was proven, ironically, by research of South-Americans who primarily eat beans. Beans are slightly poisonous by nature and it was shown that several forms of colon cancer were much more common around age 40 and upwards.

Incidentally, I don't believe in Soy-beans either - it shares certain aspects with growth hormone rife meat (use of which is prohibited here btw, but not for instance in Belgium), in that soy-beans contain a proteine that is so similar to the female hormone oestrogen that the body reacts to it almost identically.

The girl I cited (this was in Australia, if I remember correctly) was just an example of how excessive and out of proportion it can get, but most of the dangers are long-term effects like cancer.

As far as GM goes, I know there's a trade-off between development and economic interest, but the light-bulb example isn't one of indecision, conservatism, or excessive socialism. It is an example of the great impact that inventions can have on society, and just clear evidence that care is in order. So are things like SARS, or Creutzfeld-Jakob, the latter of which could have been incredibly devastating because the dramatic effects become known so long after the infection - just recently it was determined that more people than previously thought are vulnerable to the (pretty horrible!) condition, and it's still very possible that we'll see 10.000 or more deaths as a result. Even then, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to realise that it could have been much, much worse.

I just read today about a GM experiment with a tree (apple tree I think) that was better resistent to bugs, but while testing it as also modified so it wouldn't produce any flowers, so it couldn't infect the environment with its spores. It's a small effort to take a little bit more care, and economic advantage doesn't make everything right. If I shoot you in the back and steal your wallet after all there's also a clear economic advantage (well, if you have any money that is :D).
 
If I shoot you in the back and steal your wallet after all there's also a clear economic advantage (well, if you have any money that is ).

How many times have I said that basic human rights must be enforced.... I'll say it again. Basic human rights must be enforced.

I just read today about a GM experiment with a tree (apple tree I think) that was better resistent to bugs, but while testing it as also modified so it wouldn't produce any flowers, so it couldn't infect the environment with its spores. It's a small effort to take a little bit more care, and economic advantage doesn't make everything right.

That could happen from economic advantage instead of your favorite - state action. Just think of the advertising campaign.

The girl I cited (this was in Australia, if I remember correctly) was just an example of how excessive and out of proportion it can get, but most of the dangers are long-term effects like cancer.

Sorry, which girl again? What was the case?

Intestinal cancer is another result from extended exposure to pesticides. This was proven, ironically, by research of South-Americans who primarily eat beans. Beans are slightly poisonous by nature and it was shown that several forms of colon cancer were much more common around age 40 and upwards.

Proven? Proven that the cancer was caused by pesticides??? I'm not seeing it.


Poison builds up in your body in several ways and has many long term effects. Research of mother milk has shown that pesticides and many other sorts of pollution build up in women's breasts for instance and can even be traced back into mother milk. This has reached such an extent that the advantages of mother milk (transference of bacterial resistance, good hormones and such) are canceled out by this pollution and articifially produced baby milk is now considered at least as healthy as mother milk, because although it doesn't hold the advantages of mother's milk, it also doesn't hold the disadvantages.

Mind posting a link to some evidence?

Last year, the health inspection service discovered large quantities of poison in both red grapes and spinach, from pesticide use. On the grapes, the poison wasn't just on the outside, but the prolonged use of pesticides had infected the ground and the poison had entered the grapes that way.

Exactly what damage did it do? How many people got sick or died?

So are things like SARS, or Creutzfeld-Jakob, the latter of which could have been incredibly devastating because the dramatic effects become known so long after the infection - just recently it was determined that more people than previously thought are vulnerable to the (pretty horrible!) condition, and it's still very possible that we'll see 10.000 or more deaths as a result. Even then, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to realise that it could have been much, much worse.

So they've definitely nailed down what causes those diseases??? What exactly is the cause then? Where is the proof that it is the cause? How many people have those diseases killed? Care to compare the number to - say - worldwide deaths by lightning strike?


Once again Arwin produces the only intelligent answer to the question posed.

He's pretty thoughtful with is posts but he's not the only one. Famine for example usually has quality posts.
 
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