Parts upgrade, really a downgrade?

[sanpanico]

GT family,

Having spent some time getting back into GT4, I asked myself the question "Could upgrading certain parts actually be detrimental to certain cars?"

For example, could purchasing Racing Brakes actually be a downgrade to the stock brakes on say...a Skyline GT-R Carbon-R (R34), Motorsports Elise, or an AMUSE tuner, which, you would think, would already have upgraded tune parts to begin with.

Likewise, I seem to recall upgrading one of the cars in my garage (I will try to remember which and post it here) with a FC Transmission and losing the 6th gear which resulted in having to tune it out.

Thoughts?

 

[Austin343]

In this specific case, I think that racing brakes will not be a downgrade, in large part because they seem to have a negligible effect on most cars. However, there are a few known examples of high-end parts being detrimental: the Caterham, for example, takes a racing exhaust, but for some reason it absolutely kills the horsepower, and the semi-racing version is the one that allows you to reach the car's maximum horsepower. The other one I know of is the Dodge Ram, which is severely hurt by (apparently) the drivetrain upgrades like the clutch and flywheel, although I don't know whether that's been specifically tested to figure out which part is the problem. I'm sure others have examples, too.

 

[Tornado]

Those are all glitches though, most of them being a result of the previously unseen supercharger upgrade.

 

[Austin343]

"Previously unseen supercharger upgrade?" Explain, please... I don't know anything about these glitches.

 

[sanpanico]

... However, there are a few known examples of high-end parts being detrimental: the Caterham, for example, takes a racing exhaust, but for some reason it absolutely kills the horsepower, and the semi-racing version is the one that allows you to reach the car's maximum horsepower....

Thanks for the reply. This is the sort of thing I'm on about. I know that I have more than one car in my garage that I've jacked by upgrading the N/A tuning AND Turbo, which decreased the HP. But that was my oversight. However, I know there is at least one other car that fits neatly into your example. I'll have to have a look in my garage to try and remember which.

Also, I seem to recall that I have outfitted one of my little import runabouts with a supercharger.


stay tuned for that info...

 

[Vince247]

"Could upgrading certain parts actually be detrimental to certain cars?"

That just depends on what you're working on and what you want to achieve. (duh)
For example, racing brakes have no significant effect to your car if your car is going about on S-tires or less. If I remember correctly, Scaff one of the moderators states this in his 'suspension and brakes' guide. In this case you could better not fit any racing brakes, because it is just a waste of money. On R-grade it's a different story though, there they do make a difference.

There also are a couple of cases where fitting a fully customizable transmission isn't a good idea. Some cars have standard transmission settings, which you can never reach with a fully customizable tranny. If the standard setting is better than the FC, which depends on the sort of track and the track conditions of course, then fitting the FC would be 'bad'.

Also, fitting a LSD on any Nissan Skyline GT-R or anything similar is NOT GOOD. They already have a system, the computer controlled drive distribution manufactured by Nismo: ATTESA ETS Pro. This controls the traction of the tires x times per second, so fitting a LSD would only result in understeer.

Also, some people prefer doing first a chassis refresh before doing a weight reduction to a car, because this could hurt the cars' handling characteristics. I have not had any experiences with this so I am not sure if this is true.

So, to answer your question:

Yes, there are several cases where adding a certain part can be detrimental to the car.

 

[sanpanico]

...racing brakes have no significant effect to your car if your car is going about on S-tires or less. ... On R-grade it's a different story though, there they do make a difference.

Indeed. Having spent a good deal of time perusing this thread: I still will need to do some testing of my own, but am interested in hearing other people's experiences with parts upgrades. Also, I'm still curious to know whether or not buying parts for a car (tuner, etc.), which presumably has upgraded parts, would in fact upgrade the parts to a higher degree or not?

Also, fitting a LSD on any Nissan Skyline GT-R or anything similar is NOT GOOD. They already have a system, the computer controlled drive distribution manufactured by Nismo: ATTESA ETS Pro. This controls the traction of the tires x times per second, so fitting a LSD would only result in understeer.

Interesting. Clearly one has to know nuances of certain cars.

But...is that real world? Or does that consideration to the level of detail also pertain to all cars in GT4 (The Real Driving Simulator!)? That said, where might the level of detail of closely mirroring real world cars begin and end?

 

[Lucas]

Also, some people prefer doing first a chassis refresh before doing a weight reduction to a car, because this could hurt the cars' handling characteristics. I have not had any experiences with this so I am not sure if this is true.

I thought what most people do is to do a chassis refresh before an increase in rigidity. That's because the in-game information states that once the chassis rigidity increase is done, the next time a chassis refresh is done the car will go back to the state after the original increase in rigidity. Which would be bad if the car had been driven for a long, long time. Am I correct or what? I always thought of that as a superstition, though

 

[mafia_boy]

No superstition. I ALWAYS do my refresh, then rigidity if the car needs it. Stiffening the chassis does result in more understeer in some cars so you need to adjust to compensate for that fact.

Also, some parts will produce less power than others and cause you to lose power overall. The worst one is the Corolla RUNX, which makes you LOSE 32hp with engine balancing when all other parts are fitted. Others include the Semi-Racing exhaust being better on the Caterham than the full racing exhaust, stuff like that.

 

[Tornado]

"Previously unseen supercharger upgrade?"

"Introduced for GT4" could also have been used.

Explain, please... I don't know anything about these glitches.

Certain cars, when equipped with a supercharger and racing muffler (in particular. Other parts also screw with power in other cars), completely lose all semblance of power (in some case a hundred horsepower or so). They also end up with a completely different, messed up torque curve compared to how they were with the the semi-racing.

Or does that consideration to the level of detail also pertain to all cars in GT4 (The Real Driving Simulator!)?

Not even close. Even compared to GT3 a lot of cars lost features that they actually have in real life.
Other than the Skylines and a few other choice Japanese cars (off the top of my head, the RX-7 Bathurst), most of the cars in the game are totally ignored if they had some special feature (for example, the Audi TT has a active diff. in real life, but in the game it drives as a purely FF car). For that matter, there are even certain GT-Rs in the game that the ATTESA system doesn't seem to be present.

 

[Austin343]

There also are a couple of cases where fitting a fully customizable transmission isn't a good idea. Some cars have standard transmission settings, which you can never reach with a fully customizable tranny. If the standard setting is better than the FC, which depends on the sort of track and the track conditions of course, then fitting the FC would be 'bad'.

You're certainly right, Vince, but there are other, more dramatic examples than that. Cars with a CVT, like the Mitsubishi i Concept, Toyota Prius, or Honda Fit W, lose their CVT and revert to a more normal type of gearbox (someone correct me if I'm wrong about this, though). Also, a few cars, like the Jaguar S-Type R and Mercedes SL500 (R230), have those funny super-quick-shifting stock transmissions, which I suppose means that in real life they're automatic or semiautomatic, and they shift normally when you add a full customize transmission.

Thanks for the reply, Toronado. 👍

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'll have to disagree about the racing brakes comments so far. Lately I've taken to not buying them for certain races, because I have been noticing they provide just a tad extra braking ability. May not seem like much in one corner, but if you add the effect up throughout an entire race and multiple corners, they do make a difference. A small difference, but a difference all the same. Depending on how many times I'll need to out-brake the competition, I'll buy racing brakes or I won't buy them.

Other people have noted the VCD. I'll add that 1.5-way and 2-way differentials are often detrimental to many cars, unless they're super-swivelly under braking on pavement, or if you're driving off-road.

I remember using 1.5-way diffs a lot more in GT2 & GT3, for instance. I'll opt for a 1-way instead nowadays.

 

[sanpanico]

...I'll add that 1.5-way and 2-way differentials are often detrimental to many cars, unless they're super-swivelly under braking on pavement, or if you're driving off-road....I'll opt for a 1-way instead nowadays.

Is this because you're driving non 4WD cars?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Is this because you're driving non 4WD cars?

Yea, kinda. I mean, I'll rarely use a limited-slip of any kind for all-wheel drives, unless I'm at the highest levels of racing and truly need some stability or whatever. In GT2 and 3, I used to use 1-way diffs for front-drives and 1.5-way diffs for rear-drives (if they needed them) And sometimes I would use a 2-way for mid-engine cars if they were very swivelly and hard to keep planted where you want them.

But in GT4, there's so much understeer. I'll use a 1-way for rear-drive cars (again, if it truly needs it), but hardly ever opt for 1.5 or 2-way diffs...these just add more understeer under braking...and who needs that? 👎

Now for off-road, I've found 2-way diffs are heavenly for rear-drive cars & trucks. It's my new discovery.

 

[sanpanico]

Certain cars, when equipped with a supercharger and racing muffler (in particular. Other parts also screw with power in other cars), completely lose all semblance of power (in some case a hundred horsepower or so). They also end up with a completely different, messed up torque curve compared to how they were with the the semi-racing... Even compared to GT3 a lot of cars lost features that they actually have in real life.
Other than the Skylines and a few other choice Japanese cars (off the top of my head, the RX-7 Bathurst), most of the cars in the game are totally ignored if they had some special feature (for example, the Audi TT has a active diff. in real life, but in the game it drives as a purely FF car). For that matter, there are even certain GT-Rs in the game that the ATTESA system doesn't seem to be present.

...i'll rarely use a limited-slip of any kind for all-wheel drives, unless i'm at the highest levels of racing and truely need some stability.... In GT2 and GT3 i used to use 1-way diffs for front-drives and 1.5-way diffs for rear-drives (if they needed them) And sometimes i would use a 2-way for mid-engine cars if they were very swivelly and hard to keep planted where you want them.

But in GT4, there's so much understeer. I'll use a 1-way for rear-drive cars (again, if it truely needs it), but hardly ever opt for 1.5 or 2-way diffs...these just add more understeer under braking...and who needs that? 👎

Now for off-road, i've found 2-way diffs are heavenly for rear-drive cars & trucks. It's my new discovery.

Good info! Thanks to everyone. These are exactly the types of things I was wondering, and personal experience feedback I wanted when I created this thread. Very helpful.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I wanted to add to Toronado's comment about the Audi TT. It's one of PD's many collossal screw-ups. I mean, you can call it a TT, but don't insult us by calling it a TT Quattro! It doesn't become an all-wheel drive car till you equip it with a VCD, but before this it's got front-drive.


GT3 had the same issue: Audi TTs in this game are all front-drives. In both games (GT3 and GT4) you can enter the TT in the 4WD races, even tho it's front-drive. You'll get eaten alive, of course.

Now I'm not sure about the late-model version in GT4 (new car lot), I haven't driven it yet. But the used TT is definitely a front-drive.

 

[mafia_boy]

The new TT 3.2 isn't the same as the old TT 1.8T version Parnelli, they fixed the glitch for that model. Why they didn't do it for the older version aswell, I don't know.

 

[sanpanico]

...there are even certain GT-Rs in the game that the ATTESA system doesn't seem to be present.

How do you know that? Driving experience? Use a wheel vs. DSC? I thought all the Skyline GT-Rs were 4WD as opposed to RWD like some were in the previous GT series.

 

[Jonn 79]

I love this thread already!

I tried doing my own me vs me time attack with a tuned N1 R34 GTR and it was horrible until i removed the custom LSD.

Taking that to heart i did the same with my Mine's Evo 6, the result was a full second quicker around Tsukuba.

This question is for Parnelli: What configuration of LSD do you use for an FF car? I tried running one of my type R DC2Rs on the standard LSD which i assume is modeled after the helical LSD in real life. It seems to do just as well if not better in some cases than the full custom LSD.

 

[Nicksfix]

Don't over turbo an engine , severe , severe , severe turbo lag will result , it seems like it takes forever for the engine to come back up into a descent RPM range and get going.

 

[sanpanico]

Don't over turbo an engine ...

Indeed. I think I read here on these very boards that the turbo needs to be matched to the engine's (tranny's) power. Make's sense.

 

[dudejo]

it depends which track you use that stage 4 turbo on.

using it on Autumn Ring for example will most certainly screw you over.

on the other hand, you'll get better results on Midfield because there are many straights.

 

[Nicksfix]

really it's any track , if you go off course or something , it's a b**** to get re-going , especially from a dead start

 

[mafia_boy]

And that's the reason I fit Stage 5 turbos to my cars whenever possible. In most cases it's a quicker setup over the Stage 4, and in the case of GT-R's, you get more power from an S5 turbo over an S4 turbo.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

The new TT 3.2 isn't the same as the old TT 1.8T version Parnelli, they fixed the glitch for that model. Why they didn't do it for the older version aswell, I don't know.

Yea I know.

Like I said, I wouldn't have an issue with this, had PD chosen not to call it a "Quattro".

This question is for Parnelli: What configuration of LSD do you use for an FF car? I tried running one of my type R DC2Rs on the standard LSD which i assume is modeled after the helical LSD in real life. It seems to do just as well if not better in some cases than the full custom LSD.

I typically am a cheapie parts guy. If I don't need an LSD, I simply wont install one. But if a front-drive car is low-or mid-powered and starts exhibiting wheelspin, I'll go ahead and buy a 1-way.

I'll use a full-custom only for over-the-top situations, typically keeping Initial somehwere below 20, Accel can vary anywhere from 20 to 45 (depends on the situation), and Decel will be minimal.

Don't over turbo an engine , severe , severe , severe turbo lag will result , it seems like it takes forever for the engine to come back up into a descent RPM range and get going.

You shoulda driven some of the full-turbo cars in GT1! I mean, literally, if you got off-track and needed to get full steam back, it would take several seconds just to re-attain some boost. Which means you're literally just sitting there, not moving hardly at all.

 

[C-ZETA]

I really think that overpsyching (in other words, full tuning) the Cizeta V16T makes its gear changes long as hell, so it's hard to get some vital acceleration.

 

[Nicksfix]

YOu shoulda driven some of the full-turbo cars in GT1! i mean, literally, if you got off-track and needed to get full steam back, it would take several seconds just to re-attain some boost. Which means you're literally just sitting there, not moving hardly at all.

Been there and done it , in all 4 GT games , that will take the wind right out of your sails.

 

[Gil]

I haven't really noticed loss of power or performance with upgrades.
But I also haven't played in a long, long time.
The PS2 has been moved, and it's not really convenient, as well, now on my days off now I seek sleep.

I have noticed that in many cases, adjusting the full race suspension, worsenshandling considerably.
I also do not put a Stage 4 Turbo in anything but a Race Car.
The turbo lag, followed by the "blasted out of a cannon" response is more than a little difficult to use effectively anyplace except maybe the Test Curse. oops! Course.
In fact, one of the guys that I respect greatly as a racer (who, unfortunately does not frequent the forum any more), Old Geezer, formerly UB58,
completed GT3 to 100% before he learned that some parts could be adjusted for better performance.
He was one of the absolutely fastest clean drivers ever.
So, I will say that it is more than plausible to ruinate performance by 'enhancing' parts.

 

[Tornado]

I really think that overpsyching (in other words, full tuning) the Cizeta V16T makes its gear changes long as hell, so it's hard to get some vital acceleration.

Nah. That's just because the stock tranny is comically slow for no apparent reason (even more outrageous is the similar problem in the Peugoet 905 and Cadillac Cien), and the Cizeta is a car that (again, for no apparent reason) you can't upgrade the clutch/flywheel on (which would speed it up). So its really more of a case of lack of upgrades than anything else.

 

[Greycap]

One thing many people probably don't realize when pouring money into the car is that the weight reductions seem to change the weight distribution. It's most pronounced in FF cars, nearly all of them handle better, with far more balance, without any lightening. Fully lightened they turn into understeering pigs and the advantage is mostly gone trying to make them turn.