Peace?

  • Thread starter Duke
  • 17 comments
  • 1,061 views

Duke

Keep 'em separated
Staff Emeritus
24,344
United States
Midlantic Area
GTP_Duke
This essay is really ringing gongs with me. I'm getting fed up with people who are saying we "want" to go to war. For those of you who don't know who Alistair Cooke is, CLICK HERE. Comments?

Peace For Our Time
by Alistair Cooke

I promised to lay off topic A - Iraq - until the Security Council makes a judgment on the inspectors' report and I shall keep that promise. But I must tell you that throughout the past fortnight I've listened to everybody involved in or looking on to a monotonous din of words, like a tide crashing and receding on a beach - making a great noise and saying the same thing over and over. And this ordeal triggered a nightmare - a day-mare, if you like.

Through the ceaseless tide I heard a voice, a very English voice of an old man - Prime Minister Chamberlain saying: "I believe it is peace for our time" - a sentence that prompted a huge cheer, first from a listening street crowd and then from the House of Commons and next day from every newspaper in the land. There was a move to urge that Mr. Chamberlain should receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

In Parliament there was one unfamiliar old grumbler to growl out: "I believe we have suffered a total and unmitigated defeat." He was, in view of the general sentiment, very properly booed down.

This scene concluded in the autumn of 1938 the British prime minister's effectual signing away of most of Czechoslovakia to Hitler. The rest of it, within months, Hitler walked in and conquered. "Oh dear," said Mr. Chamberlain, thunderstruck. "He has betrayed my trust."

During the last fortnight a simple but startling thought occurred to me-every single official, diplomat, president, prime minister involved in the Iraq debate was in 1938 a toddler, most of them unborn. So the dreadful scene I've just drawn will not have been remembered by most listeners.

Hitler had started betraying our trust not 12 years but only two years before, when he broke the First World War peace treaty by occupying the demilitarized zone of the Rhineland. Only half his troops carried one reload of ammunition because Hitler knew that French morale was too low to confront any war just then and 10 million of 11 million British voters had signed a so-called peace ballot. It stated no conditions, elaborated no terms, it simply counted the numbers of Britons who were "for peace." The slogan of this movement was "Against war and fascism" - chanted at the time by every Labor man and Liberal and many moderate Conservatives- a slogan that now sounds as imbecilic as "against hospitals and disease." In blunter words a majority of Britons would do anything, absolutely anything, to get rid of Hitler except fight him. At that time the word pre-emptive had not been invented, though today it's a catchword. After all, the Rhineland was what it said it was - part of Germany. So, to march in and throw Hitler out would have been pre-emptive - wouldn't it? Nobody did anything and Hitler looked forward with confidence to gobbling up the rest of Western Europe country by country - "course by course", as growler Churchill put it.

I bring up Munich and the mid-30s because I was fully grown, on the verge of 30, and knew we were indeed living in the age of anxiety. And so many of the arguments mounted against each other today, in the last fortnight, are exactly what we heard in the House of Commons debates and read in the French press.

The French especially urged, after every Hitler invasion, "negotiation, negotiation". They negotiated so successfully as to have their whole country defeated and occupied. But as one famous French leftist said: "We did anyway manage to make them declare Paris an open city - no bombs on us!"

In Britain the general response to every Hitler advance was disarmament and collective security. Collective security meant to leave every crisis to the League of Nations. It would put down aggressors, even though, like the United Nations, it had no army, navy or air force. The League of Nations had its chance to prove itself when Mussolini invaded and conquered Ethiopia (Abyssinia). The League didn't have any shot to fire. But still the cry was chanted in the House of Commons- the League and collective security is the only true guarantee of peace. But, after the Rhineland the maverick Churchill decided there was no collectivity in collective security and started a highly unpopular campaign for rearmament by Britain, warning against the general belief that Hitler had already built an enormous mechanized army and superior air force. But, he's not used them, he's not used them - people protested. Still for two years before the outbreak of the Second War you could read the debates in the House of Commons and now shiver at the famous Labour men-Major Attlee was one of them - who voted against rearmament and still went on pointing to the League of Nations as the savior.

Now, this memory of mine may be totally irrelevant to the present crisis. It haunts me. I have to say I have written elsewhere with much conviction that most historical analogies are false because, however strikingly similar a new situation may be to an old one, there's usually one element that is different and it turns out to be the crucial one. It may well be so here. All I know is that all the voices of the 30s are echoing through 2003.
 
Um, we're dealing with a third world country here, not the military machine that was the Third Reich. Let's get a little perspective here.

Can someone explain to me why the US did not approach the UN six months ago with a detailed plan and timetable for inspections and disarming of Iraq? I'm convinced the reason there is so much resistance to this war is because no-one believes the US has any other path in mind other than war, and that even if Iraq put up its hands, said 'yep, we've got these weapons, here they are, watch as we destroy them', that wouldn't be sufficient for the US.

Just have the damn war - good luck dealing with the Islamic extremist backlash, which we're going to wear as well thanks to our toad of a Prime Minister.
 
Originally posted by vat_man

Just have the damn war

Dunno. Less and less support from all over the world is popping up every day. I'm not convinced the Bush administration is certain about war anymore.
 
Their gonna be certain when that psycho-motha flies one of those un-maned drones full of Anthrax over Isreal.

Then all the 'make-peace-not-war' people will be critical because we didnt take enough acton this time around,.. it's a lose-lose.
 
Originally posted by vat_man
Um, we're dealing with a third world country here, not the military machine that was the Third Reich. Let's get a little perspective here.
Tell that to the Kuwaitis. I imagine they feel a bit like Belgium did in the summer of 1939.
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Their gonna be certain when that psycho-motha flies one of those un-maned drones full of Anthrax over Isreal.
Unfortunately, RER, I think that's what needs to happen. I relate this whole situation in terms of what happened with the Branch Davidians in Waco. They were obnoxious, they were threatening, they were a real problem - but one that shouldn't have gotten what they did, because they never actually attacked anyone. The Iraquis are doing the same thing - generally being incredibly obnoxious and threatening, to the absolute limit of tolerance.

I think we should prepare for war, and impose 100% trade emabargos on Iraq and any country trading with Iraq. I think we should give up on inspections. Then we should wait. And wait. And the moment that Iraq lifts a finger in violence, we should level every government building in the country, no matter where it is sited.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
Tell that to the Kuwaitis. I imagine they feel a bit like Belgium did in the summer of 1939.

I seem to recall we had that war. There has been no mobilisation of Iraqi forces against them - in fact, Kuwait's biggest current problem internationally is Iran, over a shared water border.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Their gonna be certain when that psycho-motha flies one of those un-maned drones full of Anthrax over Isreal.

Then all the 'make-peace-not-war' people will be critical because we didnt take enough acton this time around,.. it's a lose-lose.



Agree. What difference does it make who in the world hates us and who supports us. The world is going to hate us no matter what we do. They hate us untill they need us for something and then the flag burners will turn into flag wavers. At least till they get what they want .
 
The only way to have peace in the world is to have one of the two opposing sides has total victory. Throughout history that I am aware of there is never have been total peace through diplomacy.

Kristof
 
Amen DUKE ..Thanks for digging up the old man. Iraq a third world country..what a laugh..you remind me of the Americans that said a little country like Japan couldn't threaten our police force let alone our mighty army and navy..besides look how tiny they are and they cant see how can they even fly airplanes let alone design them. What harm can that second rate little blind people country do...ask the Vets of the war in the pacific. There will always be fools who refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past.. they will most likely die because of there ignorance all the time saying how could they have done it there so .......
 
All this fuss about a 'war' which will last three weeks at the most! I say let's go.

Countries like France,China and Russia are opposed to the USA invading Iraq because it makes countries like France,China and Russia look weak. And they are weak.

As President Bush said recently,we don't need permission to take military action.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Their gonna be certain when that psycho-motha flies one of those un-maned drones full of Anthrax over Isreal.

He's not stupid enough to do that while under such intense world scrutiny.
 
Originally posted by frestkd
The only way to have peace in the world is to have one of the two opposing sides has total victory. Throughout history that I am aware of there is never have been total peace through diplomacy.

Kristof

I disagree. It sounds harsh and everything, but as long as there's 1 person living, there will never be total peace.
 
Originally posted by ledhed
Amen DUKE ..Thanks for digging up the old man. Iraq a third world country..what a laugh..you remind me of the Americans that said a little country like Japan couldn't threaten our police force let alone our mighty army and navy..besides look how tiny they are and they cant see how can they even fly airplanes let alone design them. What harm can that second rate little blind people country do...ask the Vets of the war in the pacific. There will always be fools who refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past.. they will most likely die because of there ignorance all the time saying how could they have done it there so .......

What nonsense! Japan had a long history of military campaigns in the Asian Pacific region prior to the attack on the US, and and indeed first invaded Manchurian China in 1931 before attempting a full scale invasion in 1938. Their military and industrial capacity was well know - although I will certainly agree the US was naive in not anticipating the Pearl Harbour attack.

Look, let me make some things clear here.
- I agree Hussein is a grade A arsehole. Mind you, he's not exactly Robinson Cruesoe here. Anyone looked into what China do to dissidents lately. Zimbabwe, anyone?
- the possession of WMD by Iraq is a huge concern. We should be in there inspecting, and should have actually pushed this issue harder when the inspectors were expelled in '98. I note that another country is actually producing them, has tested missiles, and has made threatening statements to the US, but does not have a quarter of a million troops lined up on its border.

One of my big worries about this is that over a million Iraqi civilians will die in this conflict, and a lot of US and other coalition troops. We'd want to be pretty friggin' sure of the reasons we're going to war - and I'm not convinced we're at the point where it's necessary.

My other big worry is that if the US goes without US sanction, Islamic extremists are going to take it as an attack on Islam. We've had enough trouble dealing with one Osama Bin Laden - I don't particularly relish the prospect of facing a hundred Osama 'wannabees'.

If further discoveries of WMD are made and Iraq refuse to destroy them, or if Iraq kick out inspectors - then fine, we have a reason.
 
I just had a flick through it - interesting document. I'd forgotten that the bulk of the resolutions stem from the 1991 cease-fire.

Just a bit of a thought - I would suggest that the bulk of this issue stems from the lack of repercussions for Iraq for the expulsion of inspectors in 1998.

That said - the opportunity for Iraq to redress the violations has been given. That process needs to be allowed to run its course - in retrospect, 1441 should have had a clear deadline.
 
@ Vat Man..Its not nonsense..At that time Japan was greatly underestimated by the general publis ..the protesters the Isolationist..look at some of the old newspaper articles ..everything I said is a documented fact. Even some in the US military that should have known better did not think the Japenese capable of anything but copying poorly ,western technology. Much of it was just racist , alot of it was just pure ignorance.
@ Whomever thinks that Saddam is normal, or scared of the US or the whole world...Iraq had at the time of the Gulf war the 4 th largest army in the world. Iraq Invaded Iran and fought a bloody war there. Iraq has threatened Isreal with nukes ,,so much so the Israelis took out there reactor . Iraq invaded Kuwait ,. Then dared the world to throw them out. They thought they could win that war ! Hmm you actualy think Saddam Hussein won't do something becaudse he's being watched ? He shoots missles at our planes patrolling the no fly zones knowing we will respond by blowing the crap out of his missle system but sacrafices it to find out opur capabilities and our resolve. Why do you insist on trying to beleive that guy thinks like you ? He will do what he want's when he want's as long as he thinks that there is the slightest chance IN HIS MIND he will be successfull. He's already proven it . He has constantly underestimated the resolve of the western powers ..and why shouldnt he ..he sits back luaghin his ass off while we fight amongst ourself and get weaker while he gets stronger. Remember its not the reality of the situation..its the reality as HE SEES IT. Ask the kurds or the Shiites weather or not it is prudent to underestimate Sadamm..if you can find any live ones.
 
Back