Project CARS 3 - Developer Blog #2 - Handling

[PJTierney]

The other thread's still discussing dev blog 1, so I figured I'd post this here* incase anybody missed it

• https://www.projectcarsgame.com/three/news/developer-blog-2/

The focus of this article appears to be on the car handling, and revamped controller experience, some good info in there

*I don't have any official involvement with Project CARS 3; even though I work at Codemasters I'm still a racing fan that likes to share and discuss the genre, so don't read much into who made this thread ​

 

[IfAndOr]

Very quiet on this thread! Seems everyone is interested in the news of what the game hasn't more than what the game has.


I'd say the developments they mentioned seem to be all positive moves.

I particularly like the sound of "spent a lot of time updating the AI with new thinking intelligence to make them more human-like in their decisions." I'd particularly appreciate that.

"we’ve gone through all the code to make it more robust and efficient so that the same high-resolution can be used on all platforms." Is a bonus. I hope it's at a decent frame rate.

"One area where realism has improved is body movement and reaction to suspension due to improvements in our damping model." - And - "we’ve improved the driveline flex in the model. Our model connects all the various shafts of a car’s driveline— crankshaft, gearbox in/out, driveshaft, axles, etc.—with spring-like couplings which allow flex." - Along with - "updates to improve the body movement dynamics over bumps and rough terrain."
Would all seem to very in depth improvements to the driving model. Rough terrain also mentioned - maybe RX is still there.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Very quiet on this thread! Seems everyone is interested in the news of what the game hasn't more than what the game has.


I'd say the developments they mentioned seem to be all positive moves.

I particularly like the sound of "spent a lot of time updating the AI with new thinking intelligence to make them more human-like in their decisions." I'd particularly appreciate that.

"we’ve gone through all the code to make it more robust and efficient so that the same high-resolution can be used on all platforms." Is a bonus. I hope it's at a decent frame rate.

"One area where realism has improved is body movement and reaction to suspension due to improvements in our damping model." - And - "we’ve improved the driveline flex in the model. Our model connects all the various shafts of a car’s driveline— crankshaft, gearbox in/out, driveshaft, axles, etc.—with spring-like couplings which allow flex." - Along with - "updates to improve the body movement dynamics over bumps and rough terrain."
Would all seem to very in depth improvements to the driving model. Rough terrain also mentioned - maybe RX is still there.

Too much good stuff for them to pick apart.

I said in the other thread the new suspension modelling sounds really good. And the new driveline flex model should be great. I remember when iracing added this back in 2012 or 2013 or something. Really added an interesting dynamic to the transmission feel and even the sound as everything connects through the car. Really good stuff here.

 

[Bloodytears]

Very quiet on this thread! Seems everyone is interested in the news of what the game hasn't more than what the game has.

Those are just words. Everyone really interested in what the game has. Kerbs in Project Cars 2 too were very realistic in their vision, why should I believe in this text now?

 

[gregc]

From the point of view of someone who is still annoyed by the no pitstops/tyre wear/fuel use and magic tyres - actually, there is plenty positive there. Problem is that whatever improvements they make compared to PC2 are no longer relevant to me as I won't be buying the game - as far as I'm concerned there's nothing to discuss.

One observation though - removing all pad settings? Wow. 10/10 for confidence I guess, I hope it's not misplaced. I've never yet seen a racer that satisfied every player with it's default pad setup, even the ones that are generally regarded as pretty good.

 

[NekoPufferPPP]

The fact that they went as far as simulating body/chassis flex is mind-boggling.

I'm very pleased with that level of detail.

 

[MagpieRacer]

One observation though - removing all pad settings? Wow. 10/10 for confidence I guess, I hope it's not misplaced. I've never yet seen a racer that satisfied every player with it's default pad setup, even the ones that are generally regarded as pretty good.

I think Forza gets close, the default pad setup on that is pretty spot on for 99.9% of people. Gran Turismo is usually bang on as well.

But for a game like project cars with a well documented history of needing teeaking and being generally pretty rubbish on a pad (even by SMS own admission), its a very bold move indeed. Of all the decisions they've made, this is the one that could backfire the most.

 

[Bloodytears]

But for a game like project cars with a well documented history of needing teeaking and being generally pretty rubbish on a pad (even by SMS own admission), its a very bold move indeed. Of all the decisions they've made, this is the one that could backfire the most.

It is not a problem anymore. If look around, games that have simple tire model have great pad support, PC3 will be not exception to Forza and GT Sport.

 

[MagpieRacer]

It is not a problem anymore. If look around, games that have simple tire model have great pad support, PC3 will be not exception to Forza and GT Sport.

PC3 tyre model is way above Forza and GT. Its a risk.

 

[gregc]

I think Forza gets close, the default pad setup on that is pretty spot on for 99.9% of people. Gran Turismo is usually bang on as well.

But for a game like project cars with a well documented history of needing teeaking and being generally pretty rubbish on a pad (even by SMS own admission), its a very bold move indeed. Of all the decisions they've made, this is the one that could backfire the most.

I can't speak to Forza or GT Sport as I've never played them, but on GT6 I definitely remember changing Speed Sensitivity at the very least. It was (and always has been) pretty good out of the box but I personally needed to tweak it.

 

[IfAndOr]

Of all the decisions they've made, this is the one that could backfire the most.

However I expect pad options could be added if much requested. It wouldn't take a big feature change to do. Probably!

 

[Bloodytears]

PC3 tyre model is way above Forza and GT. Its a risk.

It is not, say the real problem with Project Cars that you had like roughly 30 tires that changes dynamically and sent different data to controller output. Like through the whole range from 10C to 800C temperature had different performance, then different response to controller movement. Here you have only one position per chosen "tire", the same with GT Sport and similar games.

It is also makes handling easy to control and making a specific "feel", because it is always preset and doesn't affected by driver actions.

 

[AlexWilmot]

If this plays like GT Sport or a middle ground between it and PC2 I'd be interested

 

[MagpieRacer]

It is not, say the real problem with Project Cars that you had like roughly 30 tires that changes dynamically and sent different data to controller output. Like through the whole range from 10C to 800C temperature had different performance, then different response to controller movement. Here you have only one position per chosen "tire", the same with GT Sport and similar games.

It is also makes handling easy to control and making a specific "feel", because it is always preset and doesn't affected by driver actions.

The core temperature of the tyre is locked to a real world value. The layers above that all the way up to the surface temperatures across the tyre are simulated. As is the dynamic flex, carcass vibrations and general modelling of the tyre itself as well as the suspension components which are also an important part of feel on the road with the pad. The fundamental tyre model is the same as pc2 with a lot of the aforementioned under the hood tweaks, minus dynamic core (as in inner part) temperature.

Ergo, this is well above Forza and Gran Turismos tyre modelling.

 

[Bloodytears]

Correction. The core temperature of the tyre is locked to a real world value. The layers above that all the way up to the surface temperatures across the tyre are simulated. As is the dynamic flex, carcass vibrations and general modelling of the tyre itself as well as the suspension components which are also an important part of feel on the road with the pad. The fundamental tyre model is the same as pc2 with a lot of the aforementioned under the hood tweaks, minus dynamic core (as in inner part) temperature.

Ergo, this is well above Forza and Gran Turismos tyre modelling.

That was a point, when you don't have dynamically changing, affecting by driving, tire temperature, you're free to modulate any "feelings" with a grip, instead of realistically it all depend only on a driving style. For example if tire temperature on a low, like 20C, they don't sent any information. Like in reality, with cheap road tires that only sending noise while spinning and nothing more. Those all fancy words wasn't the GT Sport selling point, that's why they sound to you so much complicated, but there is nothing more then preset tires behavior, static. The same with suspension and dumpers, those are static in their value, so logically you expect from them certain result with certain set up number.

There is no real world locked temperature of a tire, btw. Only in a wonderland of magic tires this is possible to claim.

 

[Donnced]

The fact that they went as far as simulating body/chassis flex is mind-boggling.

I'm very pleased with that level of detail.

Assetto corsa and assetto corsa competizione already simulates chassis flex.

Project cars 1&2 achieved an unique identity and achieved quite successful to simulate a race weekend in lots of categories.

But now...no pitstops,no tyre wear, always on optimal temprature, magic tyre change if it rains,no fuel consumption.

And they even say contradictory things...one that the phisycs and "pure simulation" is still under the hood,and others that they adjusted phisycs towards newcomers.

I'm seeing lot of blah, blah, blah from SMS just as in PCARS 2.
But this time the game shouldn't even be named project cars (community assisted racing simulator) .

How can those guys sell this as a proper sim without pitstops,an very important thing or real live racing,no tyre wear etc.motion blur to increase "sense of speed"

Hopefully they sell very little and make again a real project cars with the community.

Also no go for me on this need for speed shift 3 lite

 

[MagpieRacer]

That was a point, when you don't have dynamically changing, affecting by driving, tire temperature, you're free to modulate any "feelings" with a grip, instead of realistically it all depend only on a driving style. For example if tire temperature on a low, like 20C, they don't sent any information. Like in reality, with cheap road tires that only sending noise while spinning and nothing more. Those all fancy words wasn't the GT Sport selling point, that's why they sound to you so much complicated, but there is nothing more then preset tires behavior, static. The same with suspension and dumpers, those are static in their value, so logically you expect from them certain result with certain set up number.

There is no real world locked temperature of a tire, btw. Only in a wonderland of magic tires this is possible to claim.

OK. I mean, the tyre model is more advanced than Forzas and Gran Turismos, like that isn't even opinion that's a fact.

Ah well. A positive thread last what, 6 hours? Good effort.

 

[NekoPufferPPP]

And they even say contradictory things...one that the phisycs and "pure simulation" is still under the hood,and others that they adjusted phisycs towards newcomers.

You've mixed up your marbles.

The physics remain on the "pure simulation" side. They mention various assists' adjustments and improvements in order to make the cars more easily driveable on a pad. This in no way affects wheel users, because you can just turn all those assists off. ...and to repeat myself - the physics are full sim.

It's like you're listening to them speak, but you only hear what you want to hear because you're being pessimistic. I feel like the same can be said for a lot of people after the new tyre model was announced.

I don't mind the removal of pitstops. I only ever drove PC2 for fun. Automobilista 2 has some elements from the Project CARS series, such as the graphics engine and weather system. If I wanted a full sim experience with all the bells and whistles, I'd get that instead.

 

[Bloodytears]

OK. I mean, the tyre model is more advanced than Forzas and Gran Turismos, like that isn't even opinion that's a fact.

Ah well. A positive thread last what, 6 hours? Good effort.

How do you know? Didn't want to sound negative, just like you, want to explore information and get a better knowledge. My guess that GT Sport have very good tire model, just it wasn't been explained deep, but I doubt that PD and Michelin couldn't make something better than SMS. At this point, you understand well, their customers aren't into this tech stuff, so it wasn't explained.

 

[MagpieRacer]

How do you know? Didn't want to sound negative, just like you, want to explore information and get a better knowledge. My guess that GT Sport have very good tire model, just it wasn't been explained deep, but I doubt that PD and Michelin couldn't make something better than SMS. At this point, you understand well, their customers aren't into this tech stuff, so it wasn't explained.

How do you know Gran Turismos is better when they have never explained it in detail?

Until SMS say thay the tyre modelling outside of the core temperature, is worse than PC2, then it can be presumed to be better, as PC2 tyre modelling is better than in Forza and GT, which both have relatively basic tyre modelling in comparison. I think PD have never gone into much detail as there isn't much detail worth talking about.

Forza I think fares a little better but is still a way off project cars. It has more convincing tyre dynamics than GTS imo, but again is a way off project cars and AC/ACC.

 

[Bloodytears]

How do you know Gran Turismos is better when they have never explained it in detail?

Until SMS say thay the tyre modelling outside of the core temperature, is worse than PC2, then it can be presumed to be better, as PC2 tyre modelling is better than in Forza and GT, which both have relatively basic tyre modelling in comparison. I think PD have never gone into much detail as there isn't much detail worth talking about.

Forza I think fares a little better but is still a way off project cars. It has more convincing tyre dynamics than GTS imo, but again is a way off project cars and AC/ACC.

That is why I explained all above to you. There is no more Project Cars 2 tire model. There is no more live simulation of a tire, but a static one. How it could be better than GT Sport or anything else, sure we don't know, but kinda there also no point, it shouldn't be better than real in optimal temperature. Safe to assume they will be the same. Or in witch characteristic they could be improved?

 

[MagpieRacer]

That is why I explained all above to you. There is no more Project Cars 2 tire model. There is no more live simulation of a tire, but a static one. How it could be better than GT Sport or anything else, sure we don't know, but kinda there also no point, it shouldn't be better than real in optimal temperature. Safe to assume they will be the same. Or in witch characteristic they could be improved?

Have you read the developers blogs? Try there. Particularly number 1 which explains what's going on with the tyre heating. I've explained already that the core tread temperature is locked to an optimal value. Everything else is modelled including surface temperatures. Add onto that the remaining values that contribute to a tyre model, the physical tyre, flex, vibrations, movement, load etc, it is above GTS and Forza. This can be ascertained as PC2 tyre model was better (the same model) with the onklly difference being the locked core tread temperature.

It is the same STM model that pc2 uses, with tweaks and improvements to certain areas and a locked core tread temperature.

 

[Animera]

The PCars 3 website says:

What that means, I don't know and the developers blog seems to suggest they've changed the PC2 tyre model enough that it is now a 'new tyre model'.

 

[Bloodytears]

It is the same STM model that pc2 uses, with tweaks and improvements to certain areas and a locked core tread temperature.

This alas doesn't explain anything to me, lol. I understand that we will have some set of tires with different "grip levels" available, like in GT Sport, but how this will make them perform on the level of Project Cars 2. How it will affect driving? Magic tires going to adapt to surface temperatures, so it kinda nullifies any tire model in it's core. It also nullifies live track in the core, because there always will be optimal, comfort combo.

 

[Jamesways]

Look at those screenshots, total Driveclub vibes. The last couple, wasn't that a track in Shift 1?

 

[CTznOfTime]

So they are going to release Dev BLog every so often until the release of the game ?
I am looking forward to the next one, because honestly, this second one, although lengthy, doesn't say much for me IMHO... it seems a lot of blablabla... and as they even said it themselves, most of these intricate coding details, will totally fly over our heads and we can only see the results of it... Which hopefully will be good enough...

The fact that they went as far as simulating body/chassis flex is mind-boggling.

I'm very pleased with that level of detail.

For me this Chassis Flex thing, is over kill...
I understand it is a reality, but only to a certain extent.... the suspension of the car will do most of the work already and the fact to consider every single little component of the car as a "spring" is not something i think is more important than having Pits...

Let's see some Demo doing the blablabla instead...

Waiting to see some more, because so far... it's a lot for not much if i have to be simple and honest...

 

[Sentry87]

All this sounds great but it's soured by some design decisions that's completely diminished me even entertaining the idea of buying this game. And some of the interactions and misleading promotion of this game as a sim kind of loses some of the respect I've had for Slightly Mad.

 

[Flerbizky]

One thing I thought devs would've learned by now after the slow motion car crash that was the Fallout 4 presentation - don't use the sentence: "It just works" ( :

 

[Scaff]

This alas doesn't explain anything to me, lol. I understand that we will have some set of tires with different "grip levels" available, like in GT Sport, but how this will make them perform on the level of Project Cars 2. How it will affect driving? Magic tires going to adapt to surface temperatures, so it kinda nullifies any tire model in it's core. It also nullifies live track in the core, because there always will be optimal, comfort combo.

I'm as big a critic of the 'magic tyre' situation as you will find, but the assumption you have made here is plain wrong,

The only talk about changing tyres has been in regard to weather conditions, and we still don't know exactly how that will work.

In regard to the locked core temp, that will affect that only, none of the other areas of the tyre model, while I agree that this is indeed far from ideal (in my view - others will be happy with it), it doesn't then downgrade the entire model to the point it's at a GTS/FM level.

What we don't know is if these changes will be one step forwards and two steps back or two steps forward and one step back, but it's going to need a whole lot of steps back to put it in the GT/FM tyre model ballpark, and we have no evidence to suggest that at all right now.

So they are going to release Dev BLog every so often until the release of the game ?
I am looking forward to the next one, because honestly, this second one, although lengthy, doesn't say much for me IMHO... it seems a lot of blablabla... and as they even said it themselves, most of these intricate coding details, will totally fly over our heads and we can only see the results of it... Which hopefully will be good enough...

They released them pretty much weekly for the original PC and PC2, so expect a lot more, they will also cover cars, tracks, etc.

For me this Chassis Flex thing, is over kill...
I understand it is a reality, but only to a certain extent.... the suspension of the car will do most of the work already and the fact to consider every single little component of the car as a "spring" is not something i think is more important than having Pits...

NO reason why we couldn't have both.

Let's see some Demo doing the blablabla instead...

Almost zero chance of that happening before launch.

 

[Benny44]

While I don't always agree with you @Scaff those are some really good points. I've been a big supporter of this game since its announcement, and no pit stops don't really bother me. Some of the stuff they added excites me more than the loss of pit stops, tire wear, etc. I AM disappointed in the cuts, but I'm ok with it. But that's because I don't generally do races with pit stops myself.

As for a demo, along with what Scaff said @CTznOfTime - Nathan Bell said no demo. But he did say about 3 weeks until we get a car list, which I'm anxiously awaiting!