PS3 General Discussion

[Jeremy Ricci]

I'm playing Flower right now and...

What?

No, really... What?

The beauty of Flower is in it's design. The game never tells you that much, it respects you as the gamer, and just lets you do your thing.

In my opinion, it's the absolute best design I've seen in a while.

Flower is a game to sit back and relax while you 'play'. I promise you, if you play any game that can induce frustration, and then move forward to play flower, if even for 10 minutes, you will be completely relaxed.

That, and it's one of the best representations of "art" in a videogame.

You should have read my list though, I left flower out for a reason when I read your post The game certainly isn't for everyone, it's very high concept, and there aren't many "high concept" gamers out there.

 

[Famine]

You misunderstand - I wasn't complaining.

I like "What?"

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

haha, ohhhh, my fault Assumptions...well, you know

Glad you aren't disappointed. You should pick up a game that you know can frustrate you, then when you're at the point of no return and you want to break your controller, start up a game of Flower. It's just a great way to experience this game.

 

[FoolKiller]

So since I've played through the credits, I imagine that I missed the magic then.

Hurm.

So, you didn't find the emotional tug from level 4 (something isn't right here) to level 5 (Gonna die, gotta get through here <bzz!> Ahh!) to level 6 (I have the power to fix it all. I will make this land beautiful once again) awesome in any way?

Spoiler

Also, if you find all the hidden flowers (your trophies say you didn't take the time to stop and smell the Flowers) you change even the room.

But not everyone gets into artistic games. I keep playing Level 6 over and over.

You misunderstand - I wasn't complaining.

I like "What?"

I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

 

[Drillah]

I haven't tried Cuboid (falls under my Flash game rule), but which title are you calling Commando?

I can think of three that could refer to:

Wolf of the Battlefield: Commando 3 ( I didn't like it) (no trophies)
Bionic Commando Rearmed (Great classic gameplay, but I wasn't a fan of the original) (trophy patch coming...supposedly)
Crash Commando (I like it!!! 👍) (trophies, but half require online)

Honestly: Crash Commando sold me with their trailer:
minor language


Best......trailer......ever.

Yeah, Crash Commando is the one I was referring to. I suck at it but it's still fun.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

More evidence that suggests Gabe Newell is either the most incompetent developer... or is the laziest... or his hands are firmly down MS's pocketbook.

(my guess is the last one, seeing as working for MS for nearly 15 years during it's golden years made him a millionaire many times over)

Fortunately, most everyone else seems to appreciate what the PS3 platform has to offer in terms of game development.


Mass Effect developer – “The PlayStation 3 is a really amazing platform to work on”

The current issue of Play features an interview with BioWare CEO Dr Ray Muzyka, in which he talks about Mass Effect, Dragon Age and how much he loves the PS3. We couldn’t fit it all into the mag, so here are some ‘extras’…


Play: How are you finding it being part of EA? How has the acquisition changed BioWare?

Ray: We’ve evolved every year we’ve been in business and I think we’re at a good place. It’s great to be part of a large stable company. Another benefit is also that we’re now a developer, but also a publisher. Obviously development is still a big focus for us, but it’s great to be a publisher at the same time so we can get to combine everything and make sure you’re doing all things right. We have to adapt. We’re part of a larger company now. We have a whole bunch of products of our own, but EA’s a very big company overall.


Your older games on the PC are known for their depth and detail. Is it difficult to maintain those qualities when making a game that has to be accessible to console gamers?

We have an obligation always to make our games as accessible as possible, and yet you don’t have to lose the depth and richness of the tactics, the systems, the customisation and progression and storyline and exploration – all those great features of RPGs – in the process. You don’t have to lose anything in the translation to become accessible. And accessibility can be achieved in a range of ways too. It doesn’t necessarily mean simple or that it’s not good. On the other hand, you have to be careful how you do it. You have to make sure you’re focussing on interface and control systems and usability, and make sure that you’re not losing the deep, rich systems that people do love. The key is to make it so that it’s easy to play, fun to play, easy to pick up with a nice, smooth learning curve and a great progression system so that you can pick up more depth as you go along. We have to spend a lot of time building tutorials and building the interface and controls to make sure it’s going to reach as wide an audience as possible. But the kind of games we make, games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, you can see there’s a lot of depth there. We’ve still got that same level of depth, we’re just trying to make it easier to use and make it feel like you’re not even using an interface, make it feel like you’re just connected to this world and you’re a hero walking around in this world. Ideally you shouldn’t even be aware that you’re using an interface. You’re ideally just enjoying the storyline and enjoying the vistas and if you pause for a moment you think you’re looking at a real world. It may be an alternate reality, but you should still feel like you’re there.


Do you miss those old, ‘hardcore geek’ games you used to make for the PC?

No, I think we’re still making them, but we’ve augmented them, we’ve evolved them and we’ve taken them into a new direction. They are, at their core, the spiritual successors to the stuff we used to do. It definitely has a lot of parallels. The pillars are still the same – exploration, progression, customisation, combat and story. We’ve had to evolve along with the systems. PCs are a lot more interesting and technically more capable than they used to be, just as console systems are. The PlayStation 3 is a really amazing platform to work on, so is 360. Wii is as well. All of them are really advanced relative to the systems of 10-20 years ago. That’s why I think it’s exciting to be developing on any system right now in the videogame space. If you look at the history of videogames – it’s maybe 30 years that videogames have existed – it’s like the first 50 years of movie development. Look at where movies came to 50 years after the invention of the movie camera, and then look at where they went in the next 50 years – that’s what our future is, the evolution of our craft. We’re at the mid-point now. We can look forward to seeing all the great things people love about the great games of the past being taken into a new direction, yet spiritually they’re still going to be the same, and still fun to play, with great stories and characters and universes.


How do you think advances in development technology have affected your approach to game design?

The technology is an enabler that allows the emotion and the artistic vision to be delivered. It’s no longer a technology challenge to try and make the [development] architecture deliver, and squeezing every last pixel out of it. It’s more of a challenge artistically. Can you make an experience that moves people and delivers emotionally powerful content that makes people feel that there’s an emotional vision and a point to what they do. I think that’s ultimately what our vision as a studio is – to deliver genuine emotion, and to make people feel something.


Sony has been making a lot of noise about making the PS3 into a major platform for MMO (massively multiplayer online) gaming. Is that something BioWare will want in on?

Maybe. There’s challenges with the interface – making sure that the features players expect in an MMO are enabled and are feasible on a console. If those can be overcome, and I think it would be a good challenge to try, then yeah… people like playing with other players. That’s true whether it’s a limited multiplayer setting or a massive multiplayer setting.
Star Wars: The Old Republic we’ve only talked about PC, and that’s our development focus. Will we explore other systems in the future for other MMO games in the future? Yeah, maybe. We have nothing we’ve announced on that front. Our main focus with The Old Republic is to make sure that the PC version of the game is awesome, and to make sure that it’s a high quality experience.


Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic is generally considered to be the best Star Wars game ever. What do you think set it apart from all the others?

In all of our games, we always strive to deliver high quality and if we have a license deal we spend a lot of time researching and understanding what it is that makes that IP exciting to our fans, and then we work to make sure we deliver an experience that’s going to emotionally engage them, that they’re going to feel is really compelling. And But with Star Wars I think there have been a lot of great games that LucasArts has done that are really good. I know we’re excited about The Old Republic and so is LucasArts, so is EA. Knights Of The Old Republic, I agree with you, is a great game – we had a great team working on it.

For the rest of the interview pick up a copy of Play at your local newsagent.

 

[Famine]

Taking a break from playing the awesomely inexplicable - and inexplicably awesome - Flower, I'd just like to say four words about PAIN.


PAIN is complete crap.

 

[TB]

My thoughts on Pain right after I bought it.

As a game, I greatly prefer Pain to Flower. As an experience, Flower wins hands down.

 

[FoolKiller]

Taking a break from playing the awesomely inexplicable - and inexplicably awesome - Flower, I'd just like to say four words about PAIN.


PAIN is complete crap.

How long have you played it? Have you tried Spank the Monkey, Mime Toss, or Fun with Explosives yet? Have you even managed to unlock the other map layouts? Even contemplate the leaderboards? Or think about trying for the trophies, in-game or out of game?

I won't argue about whether this game is something you are interested in, but as you paid for it I did want to point out to you just how much is there, and that if you actually see it for what it is, a puzzler with a sophomoric humor skin, it can be quite fun and brain crushingly difficult. Few other PSN games got their own developer site/blog with a daily back and forth among the players.
http://pain.us.playstation.com/

So, they must be doing something right.

 

[Famine]

About 2 hours, yes, yes and yes. No, no and apparently only 8 of the 17 trophies are accessible without spending any more money.

Fun with Explosives isn't quite as much fun as explosives should be - mainly because the Ooch function is so totally random. Mime Toss is quite... inconsistent. Half the time he refuses to grab the mime - without any discernible reason - and half of the remaining half I get a 20s Cheat penalty when my character not only doesn't break but doesn't actually touch any of the glass. Spank the Monkey is... meh, though I discovered I'd been doing something wrong which wasn't actually included in the tutorial.


I won't stop playing it until I've got all the way through - or until it reaches a point where I'm more annoyed with the game than I would be if I wasn't playing it. But it's still crap. Only £6 crap though.

 

[Sureboss]

It's like two Parmo's then!

 

[FoolKiller]

About 2 hours, yes, yes and yes. No, no and apparently only 8 of the 17 trophies are accessible without spending any more money.

They are limited to only so many points for PSN titles, and worked with what they had. You also picked up a game after a year's worth of DLC, Which adds trophies. They could have given you more but some of those are annoyingly hard and already feel like they should be worth more than a silver.

Fun with Explosives isn't quite as much fun as explosives should be - mainly because the Ooch function is so totally random.

Huh? First O strong, second O weaker, and if you use c and h you have already screwed up, hit R1 to restart. The more you use the longer it takes to recharge. C and H should only ever be used in a desperate situation (edge of an incline, get in front of a car, this close >< to a bomb, etc). It is very not random. For me it is so predictable that I can do at least one lap around the block, turn myself around and get back into the playing field in Pain Labs when I get shot out of bounds, and go back and forth in the Abusement park from one air vent to the next.

Also, each character has different Ooching abilities. Personally, I think Yeony is the most versatile character, but Ao No Kutso can Ooch with a lot of force, but his weight slows him down quickly.

Mime Toss is quite... inconsistent. Half the time he refuses to grab the mime - without any discernible reason - and half of the remaining half I get a 20s Cheat penalty when my character not only doesn't break but doesn't actually touch any of the glass.

I have issues grabbing things if my angle or speed is too strong for me to grip, but usually an adjustment to your approach will fix it. I have never gotten an undeserved cheat penalty. Make sure you aren't losing part of your outfit. Just a hat flying off and hitting the glass will count against you. And when the zombie character comes out I am positive that his leg, which comes off, will definitely count.

Spank the Monkey is... meh, though I discovered I'd been doing something wrong which wasn't actually included in the tutorial.

Which is?

 

[C-ZETA]

Killzone 2 is currently #1 in the UK charts. Hardly a surprise, but I downloaded a demo and it seems a bit too hard for me. Might go ahead and get H.A.W.X. instead, and not just the demo this time.

 

[LaBounti]

I'm back online and faster than ever. Thank goodness I have a 320GB HDD. Looking forward to getting my ps3 online.

Wi Fi has crippled me.. It is a G router

 

[hamstrings]

Did you do both tests with the PS3, but one is wired and the other is wireless-G? Is the wired one through the wireless-G router as well?

 

[LaBounti]

I only did my laptop. will try ps3 now since you brought it up. I just wanted to know my max speed. 11mbps isnt bad but worlds faster than the dsl i was on for year.

 

[hamstrings]

The PS3 results will be somewhat poorer even if you use wired. I think the Flash plugin is responsible.

 

[Famine]

They are limited to only so many points for PSN titles, and worked with what they had. You also picked up a game after a year's worth of DLC, Which adds trophies. They could have given you more but some of those are annoyingly hard and already feel like they should be worth more than a silver.

PAIN is the first game I've encountered where you're required to buy more modes/maps/characters to reach 100% Trophies.

Huh? First O strong, second O weaker, and if you use c and h you have already screwed up, hit R1 to restart. The more you use the longer it takes to recharge. C and H should only ever be used in a desperate situation (edge of an incline, get in front of a car, this close >< to a bomb, etc). It is very not random. For me it is so predictable that I can do at least one lap around the block, turn myself around and get back into the playing field in Pain Labs when I get shot out of bounds, and go back and forth in the Abusement park from one air vent to the next.

Also, each character has different Ooching abilities. Personally, I think Yeony is the most versatile character, but Ao No Kutso can Ooch with a lot of force, but his weight slows him down quickly.

I only have two characters - I haven't yet unlocked (or worked out how to unlock) Buzz and all the others are priced DLC...

So with... err... Jarvis? the furthest I can "Ooch" is a few feet up the street in Downtown. Sometimes the function seems to work in the direction of the screen (Up = Ooch towards the top of the screen) and sometimes it's the direction the character is facing (Up = Ooch in the direction he's facing).

I have issues grabbing things if my angle or speed is too strong for me to grip, but usually an adjustment to your approach will fix it. I have never gotten an undeserved cheat penalty. Make sure you aren't losing part of your outfit. Just a hat flying off and hitting the glass will count against you. And when the zombie character comes out I am positive that his leg, which comes off, will definitely count.

The base character (see above) has no detachable clothing that I can discern.

Which is?

Drifting... upwards...

There are a few issues with PAIN, really...

It's really badly explained
Though the Crash Course is good as far is it goes - I'd read something about getting points in bowling and wasn't aware of how to get to bowling until I happened to click on "Multiplayer" out of sheer boredom. The in-game rewards border on the ridiculous for this - when they aren't simple "Do this 5,000 times" rewards.

It's exceedingly single track
Fire a guy at something, then some other things happen at random (seriously - same shot, same force, no drift will generate two different series of events and two different scores).

It's highly limited
All you can do is the above four different ways - at things at random, at things to break glass, at monkeys and at bombs - in single player and one more - at skittles - in multiplayer.

You must buy into it more to reach 100%
Okay, so it was £6.29 to start with, but so was Flower - which didn't need anything else to reach 100% and is enjoyably replayable. I'm a little dischuffed to find, after having bought it, that if I actually wish to have the game, I need to buy some more things. I don't recall reading this when I agreed to buy it in the first place... Imagine if GT5 came out for £6.29 only for you to find out it had 1 track and 2 cars and you could never actually complete the game unless you bought a few more tracks at £3.29 each and some new cars at 69p each...


And the track was Super Speedway and the cars were the Renault Avantime and Suzuki Baleno.

 

[ASH32]

What you said Famine, is exactly why I don't like downloadable content. The best analogy I can come up with is this, you buy a new house complete with a lovely garage for your car, or so you thought, after buying it you find out the garage will cost £10,000 extra if you want to use it. You could just not use the garage and the house will be fine, however you feel like you have been taken for a mug and really you want the garage, so you buy it aswell. In your case it is quite clear that things have been taken out of the game without the buyer's knowledge, to sell at a later date, as you can't get 100% ( trophies ) until you buy them ( the things which were removed ), this has got to be mis-selling, which is against the law. Downloadable content is a great idea in principle, but when used like this and companies are allowed to continue to do it, this will only get worse and that is not a great idea at all.

 

[Famine]

Though DLC is fine as an addition - like the MGS add on for LittleBigPlanet or (dare I say it) the Lost and Damned add on for GTA4. Both were additional to the basic game and you could play the whole game through without ever needing DLC.

To keep things in perspective, it is still just a 6-quid game rather than a full price release, but even so...

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

You should have taken my advice and bought some of the games I recommended!

ASH32, you're example is very extreme, and not even close to applicable. We're talking a few dollars with most DLC, not tens of thousands.

 

[Famine]

You should have taken my advice and bought some of the games I recommended!

I'm a risk taker

ASH32, you're example is very extreme, and not even close to applicable. We're talking a few dollars with most DLC, not tens of thousands.

As a percentage of purchase price, he's not very far off. But it's more like buying a house then finding you have to pay extra to get the kitchen and bathroom.

 

[ASH32]

I know it is extreme and probably will never happen and like Famine says I was looking at more of a percentage of purchase price, rather than an actual figure. You have to admit that this is a worring aspect of downloadable content and I hope more games are not like this. At the moment I have not bought any downloadable content, but in the future I hope to, I just want downloadable stuff to be EXTRA, not things that should already be in the game.

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

I know it is extreme and probably will never happen and like Famine says I was looking at more of a percentage of purchase price, rather than an actual figure. You have to admit that this is a worring aspect of downloadable content and I hope more games are not like this. At the moment I have not bought any downloadable content, but in the future I hope to, I just want downloadable stuff to be EXTRA, not things that should already be in the game.

You have to define what could be extra, and what could have been in the game. Technically, anything could be included on the disc when you buy it, because given more time, etc.

The way I see it, downloadable content is a way for me, as a gamer, to extend my thanks to a developer for a great product. If I don't like the product, I don't buy the content. I would gladly invest in more content for Wipeout HD, Flower, Resistance, etc.

I own one character in PAIN, not one more.

 

[FoolKiller]

PAIN is the first game I've encountered where you're required to buy more modes/maps/characters to reach 100% Trophies.

Wrong, you own LittleBigPlanet. If you buy LittleBigPlanet today you cannot get 100% without buying the MGS levels. If you buy Bioshock today you cannot get 100% without buying the $15 DLC levels. If you buy Super Stardust HD you cannot get 100% without buying two modes. If you buy Warhawk you cannot get 100% without buying three expansions.

Shall I continue or have I made my point? The initial trophies for all these games did not require DLC to get 100%, but they are allowed to add trophies with DLC.

Now, Super Stardust HD and PAIN had DLC before trophies were even an option, so when they patched in trophies it appeared that DLC was required for 100% because they had already factored in the additional DLC trophies.

I only have two characters - I haven't yet unlocked (or worked out how to unlock) Buzz and all the others are priced DLC...

So, you have Ed and Jarvis? Jarvis also has three different skins: Jarvis, Ice Tea, and The Dude. And I am pretty sure that Buzz is included in the Movie Studio add on.

So with... err... Jarvis? the furthest I can "Ooch" is a few feet up the street in Downtown. Sometimes the function seems to work in the direction of the screen (Up = Ooch towards the top of the screen) and sometimes it's the direction the character is facing (Up = Ooch in the direction he's facing).

I will start the Ooch discussion by quoting the producer of the game Travis Williams from yesterday:

Remember Travis Golden Rule: That 3rd and 4th Ooch is for suckas. Don&#8217;t use it!

You can Ooch much farther than that. Hit your Ooch once, and as he begins to slow down hit it again. If you do it correctly on flat ground, avoiding obstacles your Ooch will recharge and you can keep going. The key to remember is that an Ooch is basically, what it sounds like, making your character ooch or flop in a direction.

The direction of an Ooch is from the POV of the camera. Good camera control is the big key to proper Ooching. Just make sure that you aren't accidentally grabbing anything, or getting hooked on anything.

The base character (see above) has no detachable clothing that I can discern.

He does flail, but you may be right. If you get a penalty give it a replay (triangle when back on the launcher) to look and see if you may have just barely hit glass, or even knocked something else (not a mime) into the glass.

Drifting... upwards...

I will admit, it has been over a year since I got Pain, but I don't remember drifting up coming as a surprise.

Though the Crash Course is good as far is it goes - I'd read something about getting points in bowling and wasn't aware of how to get to bowling until I happened to click on "Multiplayer" out of sheer boredom. The in-game rewards border on the ridiculous for this - when they aren't simple "Do this 5,000 times" rewards.

The in-game rewards go from simple, to repetitive, to difficult. I still haven't gotten them all, but I lack the skill necessary to unlock all difficulty levels in the singleplayer modes. That said, I have unlocked all layouts and gotten all the score based in-game trophies. With some guys getting in the hundreds of millions of points it would come off boring to them if every in-game trophy was blatantly easy.

It's exceedingly single track
Fire a guy at something, then some other things happen at random (seriously - same shot, same force, no drift will generate two different series of events and two different scores).

It is single track if all you ever do is shoot at stuff to cause damage. Unlock Block Party and Demolition, then go for things like Dick's Balls, Chimney Sweep, or the one where you have to swing on three flagpoles in one run. There is no Rube Goldberg destruction scenario in those challenges. Those require actual thought and skill.

As for the random things: A little chaos theory in rag doll physics is somehow wrong? Your character is flailing about, multiple objects are moving on their own around the city, and they do have a slight wind gust that randomly kicks up. But you can help control how the chain reaction begins by using poses and grabs.

It's highly limited
All you can do is the above four different ways - at things at random, at things to break glass, at monkeys and at bombs - in single player and one more - at skittles - in multiplayer.

Do me a favor, go into the Pain labs. Last I checked it was still Swing Away. Swing from boat anchor, to ropes, to boat anchor, through the brick wall and launch exploding crates at the water tower in the distance. It is far from random and it is a challenge that takes precision to pull off.

You must buy into it more to reach 100%
Okay, so it was £6.29 to start with, but so was Flower - which didn't need anything else to reach 100% and is enjoyably replayable. I'm a little dischuffed to find, after having bought it, that if I actually wish to have the game, I need to buy some more things. I don't recall reading this when I agreed to buy it in the first place... Imagine if GT5 came out for £6.29 only for you to find out it had 1 track and 2 cars and you could never actually complete the game unless you bought a few more tracks at £3.29 each and some new cars at 69p each...

I direct you back to the list of games I posted at the beginning of this post.

And the track was Super Speedway and the cars were the Renault Avantime and Suzuki Baleno.

I could probably have fun with that. Short lived, but I could have fun with that.

What you said Famine, is exactly why I don't like downloadable content. The best analogy I can come up with is this, you buy a new house complete with a lovely garage for your car, or so you thought, after buying it you find out the garage will cost £10,000 extra if you want to use it. You could just not use the garage and the house will be fine, however you feel like you have been taken for a mug and really you want the garage, so you buy it aswell. In your case it is quite clear that things have been taken out of the game without the buyer's knowledge, to sell at a later date, as you can't get 100% ( trophies ) until you buy them ( the things which were removed ), this has got to be mis-selling, which is against the law. Downloadable content is a great idea in principle, but when used like this and companies are allowed to continue to do it, this will only get worse and that is not a great idea at all.

They didn't mis-sell or falsely advertise anything. What he got for his purchase is actually more than what I got when I first bought the game as they have given us two free layouts (Block Party and Demolition) and a free singleplayer mode (Fun with Explosives).

No, what he and you are doing when complaining about this case is the same as if someone bought LittleBigPlanet today and then wanted to know why they had to pay extra to get those Metal Gear Solid levels required to get 100%.

That said, I dislike the achievements/trophy system and how it ties into DLC. Trophies/achievements are what we used to do to unlock what we now get via DLC. We have traded in included unlockables for paid DLC and a list of bragging rights.

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

Wrong, you own LittleBigPlanet. If you buy LittleBigPlanet today you cannot get 100% without buying the MGS levels. If you buy Bioshock today you cannot get 100% without buying the $15 DLC levels. If you buy Super Stardust HD you cannot get 100% without buying two modes. If you buy Warhawk you cannot get 100% without buying three expansions.

True, however, most of those games have platinum trophies, and / or at one point would allow you to get 100% w/out expansions.

PAINs standard trophies include Grenade a Maid, which requires that you buy DLC, and no other game does this.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

What you said Famine, is exactly why I don't like downloadable content. The best analogy I can come up with is this, you buy a new house complete with a lovely garage for your car, or so you thought, after buying it you find out the garage will cost £10,000 extra if you want to use it. You could just not use the garage and the house will be fine, however you feel like you have been taken for a mug and really you want the garage, so you buy it aswell. In your case it is quite clear that things have been taken out of the game without the buyer's knowledge, to sell at a later date, as you can't get 100% ( trophies ) until you buy them ( the things which were removed ), this has got to be mis-selling, which is against the law. Downloadable content is a great idea in principle, but when used like this and companies are allowed to continue to do it, this will only get worse and that is not a great idea at all.

As a percentage of purchase price, he's not very far off. But it's more like buying a house then finding you have to pay extra to get the kitchen and bathroom.

This topic is so .... for one thing, these analogies make very little sense... and following the logic... maybe one should do a better job understanding what they are purchasing... because if anyone bought a house without a kitchen and a bathroom... or that you didn't realize the garage costs more... you only have yourself to blame.

If anything, it's like someone who buys a house, see's the neighbor get a pool and now wants one as well but doesn't want to pay for it. Sure, the pool cost more to develop, and sure it would add more value to your home and you'd likely get more enjoyment from it... but no... it should be free!

It's really simple... there was and is an abundance of information out there on what a game has to offer (as well as any current DLC and trophies)... the game appealed to you enough at the time to buy it... and now all of a sudden it isn't any longer... and who's fault is that?

As for 100% trophy completion... why is that even important?... and certainly not necessary. They didn't remove trophies... they added them... geez... it's like you could care less about gameplay and more about a label in your stats that says 100%

Not only that, but the whole point of trophies is to add value to the game by offering 'challenges'... If anything I would be very disappointed to pay for DLC that involved additional gameplay that did not add trophies.

Although frankly, if trophies bug you that much, just ignore them. Come up with your own in-game challenges.

Also, Famine, PAIN was not the first game you encountered where you're required to buy more modes/maps/characters to reach 100% Trophies. To get "100%" in LBP you'll have to purchase the MGS DLC game level pack.

Seriously, I swear, some of the complaining I hear really flabbergasts me, and reminds me of the old wise tale of the man who cut off his nose to spite his face.

"I want 100%... so developers better not release updates and DLC that add gameplay value to my games and that include more trophies for new challenges that also add gameplay to my games!"

or

"Don't release the game until it's 'full' (whatever that means)... even if it means delaying the game several years as you come up with new features and fices... oh and when it comes out, due to the cost of all that lengthy development... of course I realize it will cost a heck of a lot more than $50-$60."



The beauty of DLC (free as well as priced) is that it empowers the consumer to decide what they are willing to pay for and what they want from their games. Fans of a game who want to extend the gameplay who feel the DLC is worth it, have that choice... but to say those that don't buy it are somehow unable to finish the game they bought is absurd. The game didn;t change for you... it's exactly what it was when you bought it... DLC just adds to it. It;s up to each person to decide whether or not it's worth it... just as it was when you decided to buy the game... which apparently was OK until you found out there was DLC that you didn't want to buy.

Look, I'm a consumer, not a retailer and I have no professional affiliation with any company that has anything to do with video games... and yeah... it would be great if all games were as "full" as a game like GT4 was and that all DLC was free... yet I can perfectly understand the economics here... and based on how many game developers are going out of business and the small percentage of games that actually turn a profit... any conspiracy theories that game publishers and developers are ripping consumers off with DLC seems rather absurd... but there it is I guess.


Any way... for those that are truly pissed about priced DLC that adds more trophies... be warned, there are a lot more games that added trophies with priced DLC than just PAIN and LBP. Off the top of my head some of the others are:

• SuperStarDust HD
• WarHawk
• Blast Factor
• Eye of Judgment
• PixelJunk Monsters
• Prince of Persia
• Mirror's Edge
• Midnight Club: Los Angeles

There could very well be more, and MagicBall is about to get DLC with additional trophies... and I'm sure there will be plenty more to come seeing as apparently a lot of people actually think some of the DLC is worth it and like the fact that much of it comes with additional trophies that add more value to their gameplay. Just as I'm sure there are those that do not... and in that case, they don't need to buy it... unlike someone with a house with no kitchen or bathroom... although I suppose they could always eat out and use their bathroom.


Now like a few Republican's I know, if someone can actually come up with a better solution (and not just one that suits their own needs), instead of just complaining... that would be great. As it is, DLC may not be perfect, but it has advantages for the consumer that were lacking in games prior to DLC.

Specifically, despite the ever growing cost to develop games as well as inflation, the price of games has not gone up by that much over the last ten years, and I'm getting a lot more gameplay out of most of the games we regularly play over most games from just a few years ago... in fact we have spent far more time playing some of the PSN games that we paid only $10 for than most of the $50 games we bought for our PS2.... but naturally YMMV.


I don't know what it is lately, maybe it's the global economy, but even before all of this mess the world is in, it just seems there is a growing trend for more and more people to just go around complaining about everything to anyone who is within ear shot... and unfortunately the Internet is the ultimate megaphone.

 

[Famine]

Wrong, you own LittleBigPlanet. If you buy LittleBigPlanet today you cannot get 100% without buying the MGS levels. If you buy Bioshock today you cannot get 100% without buying the $15 DLC levels. If you buy Super Stardust HD you cannot get 100% without buying two modes. If you buy Warhawk you cannot get 100% without buying three expansions.

Shall I continue or have I made my point? The initial trophies for all these games did not require DLC to get 100%, but they are allowed to add trophies with DLC.

But you can get the 100% Platinum trophy, for winning all but the DLC trophies...

You can Ooch much farther than that.

Not in the 5 hours I've been playing it I can't...

I will admit, it has been over a year since I got Pain, but I don't remember drifting up coming as a surprise.

Every other aspect of player control is covered, but not that (or drifting down, for that matter)...

The in-game rewards go from simple, to repetitive, to difficult. I still haven't gotten them all, but I lack the skill necessary to unlock all difficulty levels in the singleplayer modes. That said, I have unlocked all layouts and gotten all the score based in-game trophies. With some guys getting in the hundreds of millions of points it would come off boring to them if every in-game trophy was blatantly easy.

It is single track if all you ever do is shoot at stuff to cause damage. Unlock Block Party and Demolition, then go for things like Dick's Balls, Chimney Sweep, or the one where you have to swing on three flagpoles in one run. There is no Rube Goldberg destruction scenario in those challenges. Those require actual thought and skill.

I don't know how to unlock Block Party or Demolition, nor what Dick's Balls and Chimney Sweep are. All I have is Downtown, Single Player Spank the Monkey, Mime Toss, Fun With Explosives and PAINdemonium, with Multiplayer Horse, Fun with Explosives and Bowling (as I discovered today).

As far as I'm aware, that's all I have, to varying difficulties. Hence the "poorly explained" criticism.

(though Flower isn't explained in any way at all, but it's not a drawback)

As for the random things: A little chaos theory in rag doll physics is somehow wrong? Your character is flailing about, multiple objects are moving on their own around the city, and they do have a slight wind gust that randomly kicks up. But you can help control how the chain reaction begins by using poses and grabs.

Chaos theory relies on subtle differences. If nothing changes, nothing should change...

Do me a favor, go into the Pain labs. Last I checked it was still Swing Away. Swing from boat anchor, to ropes, to boat anchor, through the brick wall and launch exploding crates at the water tower in the distance. It is far from random and it is a challenge that takes precision to pull off.

I looked at Pain Lab. It was a big desert with some signs in that I couldn't even reach...

They didn't mis-sell or falsely advertise anything. What he got for his purchase is actually more than what I got when I first bought the game as they have given us two free layouts (Block Party and Demolition) and a free singleplayer mode (Fun with Explosives).

No, what he and you are doing when complaining about this case is the same as if someone bought LittleBigPlanet today and then wanted to know why they had to pay extra to get those Metal Gear Solid levels required to get 100%.

According to what I've read, 8 of the 17 trophies in PAIN (I counted 23 myself, but... *shrug*) can be won without any additional purchase. Or more than 50% of the integral content of the game you buy requires you to buy more to experience it...

The MGS LBP add-on has 11 trophies (for 59 in total), none higher than silver and isn't required for other trophies - like collecting all prize bubbles, Aceing all levels or getting the Platinum for winning all of the trophies...

PAIN DLC = Integral parts of the game affecting quite a great deal of other things; LBP DLC = Additional parts of the game, not affecting anything else

This topic is so .... for one thing, these analogies make very little sense... and following the logic... maybe one should do a better job understanding what they are purchasing... because if anyone bought a house without a kitchen and a bathroom... or that you didn't realize the garage costs more... you only have yourself to blame.

It's really simple... there was and is an abundance of information out there on what a game has to offer (as well as any current DLC and trophies)... the game appealed to you enough at the time to buy it... and now all of a sudden it isn't any longer... and who's fault is that?

I don't recall reading at any point during the explanatory text that much of the content has to be purchased separately...

So the analogy - wild though it is - is apt. You were shown round the house and had a nice, tempting wallet of information telling you the possibilities but, just after you've paid for it and moved in you find blank walls where the door should be to the kitchen and bathroom with "£10,000!" painted on them.

Sure, you can still use 100% of the house you have, but it's not what you bought - or were told you were buying...

If anything, it's like someone who buys a house, see's the neighbor get a pool and now wants one as well but doesn't want to pay for it. Sure, the pool cost more to develop, and sure it would add more value to your home and you'd likely get more enjoyment from it... but no... it should be free!

Now that's the LBP and CoD4 DLC. You have the full working house already and can, if you choose, build a driveway and garage in your garden... ( ). You don't have to and it doesn't stop you using all of your fully-functioning house... But you know, you can. If you want.


You're getting me wrong. DLC which adds = good. DLC which is required for a game to be fully functional = not good, especially when there's no warning that you won't get what it says in the PS Store promo text for it without the DLC.

Still, at least it's only a £6 load of crap. And Flower was a £6 gem. So overall I'm at least batting average from the download.

 

[FoolKiller]

PAINs standard trophies include Grenade a Maid, which requires that you buy DLC, and no other game does this.

OK, that I will grant you (and I forgot about that one), but I think they just tried tying them together as they were granted X+DLC points to allot for trophies and tied them all together.

Look, I'm a consumer, not a retailer and I have no professional affiliation with any company that has anything to do with video games... and yeah... it would be great if all games were as "full" as a game like GT4 was and that all DLC was free... yet I can perfectly understand the economics here... and based on how many game developers are going out of business and the small percentage of games that actually turn a profit... any conspiracy theories that game publishers and developers are ripping consumers off with DLC seems rather absurd... but there it is I guess.

I agree with this, but part of me wishes we hadn't switched to this DLC format. But then another part of me sees how I can expand games like Rock Band to my liking and by my choice and I like it.

Although, part of me would love to see how much DLC actually benefits the developer and how much it benefits Sony and Microsoft. I have a suspicion it is less about the developer as most PC DLC is still free and only full expansions are paid for.

Now like a few Republican's I know, if someone can actually come up with a better solution (and not just one that suits their own needs), instead of just complaining... that would be great.

Careful, that road leads to the Opinions forum, and once you get sucked in there you are never coming back.

Not in the 5 hours I've been playing it I can't...

You'll learn.

Every other aspect of player control is covered, but not that (or drifting down, for that matter)...

So they taught you how to drift and you didn't even attempt up or down?

I don't know how to unlock Block Party or Demolition, nor what Dick's Balls and Chimney Sweep are. All I have is Downtown, Single Player Spank the Monkey, Mime Toss, Fun With Explosives and PAINdemonium, with Multiplayer Horse, Fun with Explosives and Bowling (as I discovered today).

As far as I'm aware, that's all I have, to varying difficulties. Hence the "poorly explained" criticism.

Now, I see the problem. When you are in the trophy room you can switch screens that show various different things. You will find that you still have three layouts of Downtown to unlock: Aftermath, Block Party, and Demolition. At first glance they don't seem very different, but they are. There are also many various challenges you can do to get the in-game trophies or unlock characters. If you have seen only one screen in the trophy room you haven't seen everything you can do yet.

Chaos theory relies on subtle differences. If nothing changes, nothing should change...

So, if your character is flailing about there is no subtle differences? It isn't the same every launch. If he happens to catch a little wind along the way that pushes him I am sure that is at least subtle. And as about a dozen things on the board are moving around you literally cannot avoid subtle differences.

I looked at Pain Lab. It was a big desert with some signs in that I couldn't even reach...

If it is still Swing Away, I will check tonight, there is a setup with boat anchors, ropes, and explosives. Pain Labs is a weekly changing set of experimental ideas the team is working with and judging feedback on their blog to determine its viability in future expansions - you know like it explains on screen before you start. So, yeah it looks pretty bland. The signs are just decoration.

According to what I've read, 8 of the 17 trophies in PAIN (I counted 23 myself, but... *shrug*) can be won without any additional purchase. Or more than 50% of the integral content of the game you buy requires you to buy more to experience it...

17 when they rolled out the patch, 23 now that they have since added another expansion, like MGS levels in LBP.

Initial Trophies:
Requires no DLC
Bronze

• Dude Abides - Use “The Dude” to score 30 Strikes in Bowling
• D-Town Destruction - Get 2,000,000 score in Paindemonium and Aftermath
• Combo Mambo - Get 15x Combo in Paindemonium, Aftermath, Block Party, Demolition
• Constipated - Get 100 Strikes in Bowling
• Pain and Mane - Play 100 Games of Trauma or Horse
• Attention Spam - Get every type of PAIN (Groin, Head, Arm, Hand, Leg, Foot and Body) combo in Paindemonium, Aftermath, Block Party, Demolition.

Silver

• Harder Dick’s Balls - Get all of Dicks Balls in the Block Party Dumpster w/o reset

Gold

• Affliction Addiction - Get One 100 Million Points in Downtown

Requiring DLC
Bronze

• Pain in the Park - Get 2,000,000 score in Abusement and After Hours
• Horsin’ a Clown - Take the Clown for a ride on the Roller Coaster
• Glutton - Make 30 “Eat It!” shots in “Call da Shot”
• Grenade-a-Maid - Get Exploded 200 times with any female launchable add-on character

Silver

• Rodeo Clown - Use Ed to Explode 500 barrels in Clown Toss
• Ninja pwn - Hit the Target Stuffed Ninja in every Amusement Park Mode
• 2 Mill Club - Get “Pain in the Park” and “D-Town Destruction”
• Trill - Get Painful Bullseye Trophy with Scurv Dogg or Hung Lo add-on characters

Gold

• King of Pain - Get All Downtown Trophies plus Trill and Grenade-a-Maid

If it isn't on this list then the Movie Studio or The Hoff character are required. The only thing I see them doing that others haven't is tied some trophies to character DLC. Oh, and making some of them impossibly gorram hard.

And every major add-on gives you some bronzes and at least one silver and gold, so far.

PAIN DLC = Integral parts of the game affecting quite a great deal of other things; LBP DLC = Additional parts of the game, not affecting anything else

What integral parts of the game are affected by purchasable expansions or characters?

 

[UnoMOTO]

Sorry FK, but the problem is that you can find the good in just about any game. You are quite relaxed about this whole gaming thing. A REAL gamer doesn't stand for crap and must fight 'da man' to get anything worth playing.