Real Drifters?

[Dreaussie]

Alright, i signed up to ask this question after coming on this site a while back to look at drift setups when i first started trying to drift in gt4 (which i might add was the wrong thing to do, starting with an understeering stock silvia as instructed by a youtube vid i watched later did wonders for my understanding of body roll and other factors which are ultimately what a good drifter needs to know, setups coming later) im 19 and have been playing GT4 for about a year.

Anyway, the question is how many of you guys drift outside the wonderful world of GT4??

the reason i ask is because half the reason i play is to get knowledge i couldnt otherwise get without wasting thousands of dollars on tires, suspension etc etc also i rarely drive RWD because both the cars i get to drive are FWD, thus the question.. as im saving for an rx-7. If i had my own RWD car i wouldnt be asking as i would have tried and compared myself already/

so how do your skills on GT4 translate into real world situations? whats been your experiences with trying to implement exactly what you learnt here with your own caR? I know GT4 improved alot of elements of my real world driving and understanding of the physics involved, but this question is specifically about drifting RWD and how it is represented in the game

videos of yourself in the real world would help your credability when answering this question..

i also ask because i want to buy a G25, but as they cost $250 here in aus id like to know if it will actually be worth taking money out of my rx-7 fund to get something which could end up not helping me in any real sense towards enjoying drifting properly.

honesty would be appreciated, this isnt a challenge, i know GT4 is worth playing even if some elements arent exactly the same, i just want to know how well it will translate

thanks alot,

ANDREJ

p.s answer this question only if you are one of the people with real world experience or something meaningful to add to the conversation.. this is meant to be a guide what for to expect when transitioning from GT4 to real world, not a conversation about the fact that you are too young to have any experience etc.

 

[Wolfe]

No real-life videos to share, and I have no interest in competitive drifting, but I have experience with initiating and controlling oversteer with my BMW.

Drifting and oversteer are perhaps the biggest weak point of GT4's physics engine. The most easily-demonstrated piece of evidence is the fact that donuts are impossible -- this should tell you right away that something is amiss. What's more, wheelspin off the line is excessive and artificial, and changes in steering input or imperfections on the road surface have no effect on your direction of travel (via externally-induced rear-wheel torque steer). If a real car is powerful enough to sustain substantial wheelspin off the line, it can take some finesse to keep it going in a straight line with the throttle planted to the floor.

Most people look at this and say "so what? Donuts and burnouts aren't racing, or drifting." But that's missing the point -- if it's obvious that the low-speed physics are wrong, why should the high-speed physics still be assumed accurate?

In a real car, sudden steering, braking, or throttle inputs can upset a car's chassis if it's mid-corner at a fairly high pace. This includes drift initiation techniques. In GT4, these sudden inputs do little to nothing to upset the car. You can mash the gas and brake or jerk the wheel left and right and the car will rarely do anything but grip or understeer, making every car an incredibly friendly, easy-to-drive, confidence-inspiring version of its real-world self (this even includes monsters like the AC Cobra).

Of course, this isn't to say that oversteer is impossible to achieve in GT4. It's just too easy to avoid (or too difficult to attain), and it's also too difficult to control once attained -- if you use traditional countersteer techniques, snap-overcorrection looms at the end of nearly every drift attempt. GT4 drifters have learned to work around this and mostly rely on 4-wheel-drifting (as I've read here), but the flaw is still present. In fact, countersteer is so strong that it's nearly impossible to spin out from swinging the rear end of the car too far, meaning careful countersteer can turn what would be a surefire spin in real life into a close call in the game.

This combination of friendly grip and relatively uncontrollable oversteer make GT4 a rather poor choice for learning drifting techniques. If you were to take your car out on a drift track right now, you'd probably find that the whole experience is slipperier and more dynamic than you were expecting. And that's before you throw in the inevitable difference between sitting on a couch/chair and being strapped behind the wheel of a car.

If you want to practice drifting in preparation for the real thing, the only simulator/game I can recommend to you is Live for Speed. It's for the PC, not the PS2, but its system requirements are rather low. It's also 100% compatible with the Logitech G25, meaning the investment might not be a bad idea.

If you're interested, I once produced a video that covers a lot of what I've said here, with visual demonstrations.

(in b4 a dozen people yell about how wrong I am)

 

[dimplz]

yep...im 17 and i have drift many-a-time...i live on a property and i have learnt to on dirt but have transferred it to road...but costs a fortune

 

[nk4e]

In a real car, sudden steering, braking, or throttle inputs can upset a car's chassis if it's mid-corner at a fairly high pace. This includes drift initiation techniques. In GT4, these sudden inputs do little to nothing to upset the car. You can mash the gas and brake or jerk the wheel left and right and the car will rarely do anything but grip or understeer, making every car an incredibly friendly, easy-to-drive, confidence-inspiring version of its real-world self (this even includes monsters like the AC Cobra).

That and people don't want to mess up their cars unless they have the money to fix them. I have very small experience drifting my 240sx, which is very different and fast paced. Though that I have a RWD car and so does Wolfe, I don't want to get my towed for wreckless driving in the streets or dirt. I have friends that do it because there isn't a race track for miles where I live and because it is fun.

My alignment for my car is already messed up( or my damper is probably shot) because some thieves decided to take a joyride in my car. But its your choice, take the time to learn the real thing. Go out and Drift out there, if you don't get caught or in a accident or kill some bystander who is just driving by accidentally on your street then thats good.

You can't have a guide on the transition from GT4 to Real life because GT4 has that less real factors to consider:
Money, Fear, Locations, Traffic Laws,and what not.
I wouldn't mind drifting but I would take it to a track where there are real veteran drifters watching and its actually legal.

 

[AOS-]

Though i would like to try out drifiting in real life, i don't encourage you people to even try it, let alone buying a RWD just for that reason. think about it, RWD is like impossible to drive in the winter.. you'll swerve like every 2 seconds...

 

[Dreaussie]

thanks wolfe thats pretty much exactly what i wanted to know.

 

[Suzuki]

Though i would like to try out drifiting in real life, i don't encourage you people to even try it, let alone buying a RWD just for that reason. think about it, RWD is like impossible to drive in the winter.. you'll swerve like every 2 seconds...

Eh, not exactly. If you don't drive like an ass and use some common sense you shouldn't have much of a problem.

 

[nk4e]

Possible what could happen.

 

[HackiRoku]

Nice video, haha

I like doing some sideways on rain or snow with my MX83, but i never attemp to drift on dry road, too dangerous, and i want to keep my car in good shape so...

 

[Green_Flag]

Do Not Use Gt4 To Compare To Real Cars

 

[nk4e]

Do Not Use some limited Console Games To Compare To Real Cars

I will rewrite that

 

[Suzuki]

Possible what could happen.

That's what happens when you think you are all that, but actually aren't.

 

[AOS-]

Yeah that vid was of a 180sx or 240sx, can't tell difference by appearance, but in any case, that guy was pretty stupid. I seen it before, and obviously he doesn't know how to react smart an safely. you can clearly see he's understeering a lot for a drift. My question is, what's the point of continuing to drive towards an edge when your "drift" is already a broken one?

 

[Dreaussie]

this is annoying me.

there is no winter in australia, atleast not one with snow unless you go to the snowy mountains.

i would start drifting in car parks or abandoned air fields (if i can find them), the same way i started doing handbrakies and other stupid stuff in my mums car, so crashing into curbs wouldnt be an issue until i had enough experience to avoid it.

i compare the game to real life because its supposed to be a simulator, so your supposed to compare the two.. no? i know there are major differences and i know now that its no use expecting to get real life experience from this particular game.

and yes i expect to loose money on drifting, it screws up your car, i know that.. but im interested enough in it to spend lots of time and money on getting a car up to a respectable drift spec.

 

[Dreaussie]

sorry for being a dick, im lacking caffeine big time.

 

[nk4e]

Have you seen the Drift bible at all?
No matter how many experience your going to get, sometimes your just going to crash.
I or probably some members have the same feeling about drifting, I wouldn't mind doing it but there is two ways on doing it. Either Legit or illegal, over here they will crush your car in front of you if they found out if your doing anything illegal in the streets,even empty places. and its a danger to the public. You may get written up for Disturbing the Peace or Wreckless Driving. But that is what happens over here from Cops.

 

[Dreaussie]

haha weird, i just downloaded and watched it yesterday...

where abouts are you from? here in australia police are seriously under resourced in terms of on the road cars (theres something like half as many as there were in the 70's here in NSW, while the population has doubled) so its not that hard to get away with relatively harmless stuff because they concentrate on bigger problems. that is to say you wont get caught very often if you in some industrial area outside the city screwing around with your car and not putting others in danger. australia has alot of space so you can find alot of places in the middle of nowhere to practice without being bothered or bothering others.

but theres been alot of publicity lately about illegal street racing because some guy crashed into and killed an elderly innocent couple while racing, so theres been talk of bringing in measures like crushing cars to send a msg to offenders.. but i think thats also no going to happen because they get more money from selling the cars.

im kinda tossing up whether i should buy a car just for track or have it street legal, at the moment im more inclined towards street.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

If you're gonna have a toy, don't make it your daily driver.

Street LEGAL, yes. (Unless you can get a truck and trailer to haul it on)

Street driven, not so much. Just be able to get to the sanctioned events and you're fine.

But don't have a 300+hp toy for your daily driver. The temptation will be too much. Tickets will flow, accidents will happen. Not fun.

 

[Boundary Layer]

I'd really not recommend GT4 for simulating anything very realistically. It's an outdated game on an even more outdated console.

Wolfe put it best: try out a PC sim like LFS, rFactor, Racer, or GTR2.

I'd recommend LFS or rFactor based on physics... it's a very hot-topic debate on a lot of forums about which is better. In truth they're both great sims. I prefer rFactor just because I personally feel more immersion with it, and theres some really great usermade content for it. LFS cannot be expanded upon yet, afaik, but seems to have a much larger community of drifters present. Give the demos for both of them a try.

Racer was fun until I gave LFS and rFactor a try. I haven't had it installed in over a year and a half.
GTR2 has a very floaty feel imo but I still have it installed - I just love playing around with MoTeC

 

[ady4scotland]

I have had some experience in testing the limits of cars when i was younger and drifting isn't an easy thing to do. Especially on public roads with a road car, which is suicidal, and it destroys the car. So i don't think you'll find a lot of people that do it for real. GT4 is just a game and although it uses the same physics of real driving, it ain't the real thing and never will be. I did drift on grass a lot (with RWD) and it was a simple case of balance between brakeing, direction and power. Thats the same methods i use on GT4. If you're going in to a 2nd gear corner, brake and go down to 2nd gear, but release the brake when 2nd gear is selected and as long as you're at the top end speed for 2nd gear (without over-revving) before you turn into the corner, then you should be setup nicely to control the weight & balance of the car and keep it pointing in the right direction using power. I know what you're saying about all the set ups. 450-550 h/p, road tyres, transmission 10-12, suspension - minimum soft (work that out for yourself), camber 0 & 0 and a 1.5 thingy. Thats what i do for my setup and i always use RWD. It's the only way to drift really for max fun. The rest just takes time and practice. If you want a few quick tips to save reading all the above, then it would have to be....

1) Use the setup i gave you above You might have to change tyres and tranny settings depending on what car you got. The heavier the car, the more grip you need to reduce yor brakeing distance and more power in lower gears to keep them rear wheels spinning. Don't keep changing setups, because if you do, every 1st shot with that new setup will be exactly that, your 1st shot. You got to stick to one setup for a while and try to make it work for you.

2) Read all of the above

 

[Rockit]

i powerslide, i'd hardly call it drift, in my trans am all the time. I can tell you that the gt game engine lacks alot of spinning tire physics that it ought to have, also alot of suspension situations you typically run into on the street aren't in there.

now to the people that said you can't drift very well in gt, yea right. i can maintain angle with my nose to the wall on trial mountains turns for most of the track. el cap can't be mastered without drift lines, nor deep forest, but it's definately a flawed model.

some cars break free easily, some don't, it's called setting the car up to do what you want ,when. I tune drift initiation into my cars, if i want to, it's in the brakes, diff, and shocks as well as somewhat in the springs and sway bars, and angle controll depends on gearing brakes and other factors.Some may say it's more shocks and sway bar, i say that's a rough way to tune a car, losing the balance in the process.

Try my s15 in the rec'n'race garage if you want, it's great at e brake drift initiation and you can controll the angle easily thru the hand brake or throttle, it's my best drift car but maybe not my favorite, i just started in on tuning rotories again and i took the course record with a rough draft of a spirit r, sideways all the way i'll get up movies of the spec R and the spirit R soon, i'm nearly convinced to enter the competitions, but some of those guys are just amazing. Then again if i made a car for just three turns and had a week to do it, maybe i'd get better results.

To the original poster, i'd buy a cheaper car such as a S chassis nissan, (silvia/180sx/240sx) they are the predominate drifters in the d1gp as well as formula D.reason being they are cheap, parts are plentifull, the car is durable, driftable,and you can beat the crap out of it saturday and fix it by monday without going broke, try doing any of that on an rx7. don't get me wrong the rx7 is the better car, just not for an entry level racer, you will be faster sooner in the s chassis car for less money. Also, i really think nissan will take over the world one day, their cars are just,,unbelievable.