Realistic Pricing and Limiting Cheating- Lessons Learned from GT4

[JohnBM01]

Five-second penalties. 4.5 million Credits for a prototype race car. I've learned these were more like measures to help make sure gamers don't get off easy by putting in cheats to access all the purchaseable, high-end race cars. The highest a car can cost in a GT game used to be 2,000,000 Credits. Now it's WELL beyond that. 4.5M for a Pescarolo prototype. 3.5 or so for a Mazda 787B. People talked about realistic pricing, and I think one measure to make people limit cheating and work for the big time cars was to make them ridiculously expensive. A majority of this thread is on realistic pricing of cars, but I've seen this as a measure to prevent cheating. So this is a two-for-one thread. Part of it on realistic pricing of cars, and the other is on limiting cheating. You are free to discuss either or both issues as I somewhat think they are loosely related.

I'll let you reply on first.

 

[Tenacious D]

Any game can be taken advantage of, just as real life can be. But I think GT4 had a great formula, and I think it reflects on the economy of real life racing fairly well. Starting off, you're stuck with buying used cars and perhaps not modding them up at all. As you progress, very gradually, things open up for you, till at the end, you have almost more money than you know what to do with.

Polyphony can do any number of things to fiddle with the Gran Turismo formula. They can have prize cars be of lesser potential and need to be built up for later races, they can eliminate prize cars entirely and give bigger prize purses, leaving us to buy whatever cars we want, they can add in maintenance and fees, they can make damage expensive to repair, all sorts of things.

Personally I'm hoping big time for some version of our Career Mode, so that those who want a more simulation of reality game can dig seep into that aspect, and deal with the world of racing based entirely on realistic principles. Meanwhile, those who want to pursue GT as it was originally built can take on Gran Turismo Mode and play the traditional game with prize cars and cash for races won. Career Mode would put you in a tightly structured and scheduled season, so you wouldn't be free to chase some money races over and over to amass quick wealth.

In Forza, there's a pretty well connected sequence which runs for quite some time in the game, where a race win will give you a decent cash prize as well as a car which can be used in another race. Following this chain, you won't have to buy a car for quite some time, saving money for mods and performance improvements. This can be milked to a great extent, as money piles up quickly. In my second profile, I've gone through less than a third of the game and I already have a million credits. Plus there are true cheats and glitches on top of successful racing.

With GT4, it seems that you can't really cheat the game into amassing wealth until later on in the game, and even then, it's simply a matter of doing high prize yielding races, which pro racers would be doing anyway, so I wouldn't really call it cheating. Maybe once you win a race, it can't be raced again until you complete a series of associated races, but I don't really see a need for that, personally. I think GT4 as it stands is pretty darn good.

 

[GM]

Realistic Pricing would be good in GT5.

Cars such as a Subaru 360 would cost around 13,000 mint, there's no need to put a 32,000 price tag on them.
Same deal with the Toyota Sports, not worth 32,000.
But worst is the Skyline Sport Coupe, 320,000, top speed s around 100 mph.

So there are a few cars that are very overpriced, they seem to be classic cars, maybe Polyphony Digital taken rarity into account when they priced these cars?

America, The Camaro and Corvette Z06 around well priced, not that they're cheap, but thats how much they're worth.
Then we get to Ford, Focus RS, over 50k, thats bad pricing, hot hatches are 27k at the most in the UK.

Then there are all those 450k race cars.
Ford Falcon Race Car
BMW 320i Touring Car
Gathers Civic Race Car
S2000 Race Car
Interga Type R Race Car.

The BMW has 256 BHP, not really worth 450k, more around 175k.
The Civic has 187 BHP, again not exactly 'good pricing' more around 120k.
The Integra and S2000 Race Cars don't even exist, all Polyphony Digital did was get the two cars, make them have more BHP and put Gran Turismo Decals on there, so I could'nt estimate a price.

 

[samj_13]

Most of the high end luxury cars like the Aston-Martins are fairly priced, and I think the M5 is its sticker price, 116,xxx seems totally fair. The Lotus 111R seems like it would cost around 55k, but the Caterham 7 Fireblade, which is a kit-car (I'm pretty sure, ) shouldn't cost 60k, you could probably pick it up fully assembled for around 30k.

 

[IMADreamer]

I am all for more realistic pricing although I think they did well for the most part. As for cheating, well if you are cheating just to get cars or whatever you are missing the point of the game really. For me once I got tons and tons of money it got old fast. That's when I found myself playing with photomode alot.

 

[Dave A]

Realistic pricing based on what currency and what exhange rates? I say keep it a fictional currency with set values, your just creating new probles by having it in anoyjrt currency. I don't think theres much wrong with the pricing as it was in GT4, sure there was a couple of cars that didn't make sense but out of 700+ you have to expect that, that even happens in the real world, it actually happens more in the real world.

 

[DuckRacer]

I think GT4 did a great job pricing them. Sure, there could be some improvements, but it's good enough.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'd forgotten about some of the outlandish prices for some of those cars, making you wonder if they just came up with prices at random. And many of us have grouched a bit over the unique cars which can't be sold, only deleted. And then there are the concept cars like the Nike which are so weird I haven't even tried it. I get the felling it's really a hungry alien sometimes.

One more thing I hope they address are the "one win" vehicles which can't be won ever again, and perhaps aren't even available in the dealerships. Forget that. Go ahead and put certain rare cars in the game, but PLEASE make them worthwhile, serious cars, and not one win onlys.

 

[RouteUK]

Surely the cars would cost money to run? Maybe the price is some kinda compensation for no damage no Repair costs and No petrol costs?

 

[Kylehnat]

I didn't think the pricing was too far off in GT4.

Next topic: "cheating". It is generally far too easy to win money in the GT games. Very early on in GT4, you could enter and easily win the "easy" rally races, winning price cars worth $275,000. Do that several times, and you can buy whatever car and upgrades you want. Thus, I submit that prize cars be done away with. Maybe keep a few strategically-placed prize cars to help you progress in the game, but not to become cash cows.

Also, I think you should only be able to get prize money once. That is, you can't b-spec le mans 50 times and get $50 million. Run the race as many times as you want for fun, but no money after the first time. This would make money a lot harder to come by, and force us to make wise decisions as to how to spend it. Also, give us more money to start. Nobody starts a serious racing career with $10,000, which pretty much forces us to b-spec for cash and sell cars for crack...er...I mean money.

 

[Dave A]

I wouldn't like no prize cars and I think the prize money is very well set in GT4, the easy money in GT games doesn't come frmo prize money, it comes from prize cars. What I would say is set tyhe prize cars, and the value of the prize cars better in relation to the level of the event, ie for an even you can enter with an A license you wouldn't win anytihng as valuable as cars given in international B license events, and in turn they wouldn't be a valuable as International A event prize cars etc. Also regarding b-spec, to aviod it being used to generate fast cash, simply cut the winnings down in b-spec events, instead of this race giving you 50k you now get 1/4 of that, let's face it, you don't deserve more.

 

[Canadian Speed]

I personally still like the random car thing they had going on in GT3. It made for replay value, and it made it harder to cheat, as you wouldn't get the same car everytime you raced... A pain for some impatient people who missed out on not getting an F1 straight away the very first time out... But it did make getting that F1 all the more sweeter once you did get it. I also wouldn't mind getting a system kind of like in Tourist Trophy in place. You can't sell prize cars at all... Would make it hard to build up, but it would also keep people honnest.

 

[Tenacious D]

There is one thing that I should defend about money races in GT Mode. Remember the black LM cars which show up at day 690? You need at least 10,000,000 Cr to get all four if memory serves, and even using a B-Spec racer, that does take a bit. I would like to see more goodies and easter eggs in GT5, a LOT more, but this will also require money races to be a part of the mix, like it has always been with Gran Turismo.

And honestly, I don't think having money races hurts anything. The two types of people that abuse it which I can think of are the impatient kids who just want to get their mits on supercars and racecars as soon as possible, or the hardcore drifters who aren't interested in racing anyway. I don't think either group can be reached, so changing the GT formula won't make them happy to play the game right. I don't think all that many of them are in the GT playing public as it is.

For the most of us, when we get our millions, it's what we want anyway so we can go car shopping for all those rides we've been lusting after.

Oh, and I would reiterate that GT Mode isn't really a recreation of real life racing anyway. It's structured in as free a fashion as can be, so that at any time you can decide to do a Manufacturer's Cup race, and then if you feel like it, a German DTM race, as long as you have the car for it and the race is unlocked. I really would like to see a Career Mode which many of us have been clamoring for, so that those of us who would like to see a more realistic approach to racing, all the way back to SCCA-like roots, it's there for us. And when you want to just go racing any old race, GT Mode is waiting.

There really isn't a game like Gran Turismo out there other than Forza, and there are rumblings that Career Mode in Forza 2 may be like an actual racing career, so you know that I'm all for something similar in GT5.

 

[3spddrft]

Also regarding b-spec, to aviod it being used to generate fast cash, simply cut the winnings down in b-spec events, instead of this race giving you 50k you now get 1/4 of that, let's face it, you don't deserve more.

Glad you're able to decide what people deserve :-) B-Specing isn't a form of cheating nor is it a form of easy money. I don't believe either of those were the way that PD intended it. He can be used for a Co-Driver or you could manage him through most of the races. Someone said the current prize money is fine. It would not be if someone was attempting to B-Spec. They would end up rerunning race after race. If there is going to be a B-Spec though with equal prizes as A-Spec there should be a higher emphasis on a level playing field, suspension tuning, and wise purchases.

I'm really tired of people on GTPlanet saying that certaint things should be restricted and not allowed in GT5. This pure race mentallity and hardcore enthusiast aditude is not what GT is about. They've always been about the all inclusive expirience of driving. Tuning, showing, racing, and drifting are all apart of loving cars. A Kaz is a car guy. He not an elitest of racing.

 

[Dave A]

Well just what do you deserve for pressing start race and then in some longer racing sticking it back to x3 speed after a pit stop. I'm not saying B-Spec is a bad thing or that it doesn't have any uses, if it wasn't for b-spec most of the endurances in GT4 would never get done in my copy. But at the end of the day if the earnings from b-spec are the same as they are from a-spec it quickly loses it's true value to thoes that jsut use it to earn money fast. By restricting what you can earn from b-spec it's still being useful in helping people like myself who doesn't have enough time to dedicate to GT or want to dedicate to GT for that matter to complete certain races, but it's less useful as an easy cash cow. At the end of the day I feel that this would please more people than it would dissapoint, though if I'm wrong on that we are on an internet forum where people can voice their own opinions.

With regards to Tenacious D's post, sure big money races need to stay, it would take forever buying all the cars in GT4 without them, but the big money races should imo be limited to the higher level license events, not the lower and medium level events like they are in GT4, it does imo spoil the balance of the game in the earlier stages.

 

[darkblu]

well, i have all in all three complaints:

1. you can duplicate your own cars through the memcard cars shopping feature
2. the price of the toyota rsc prize car at capri - i personally always get tempted to abuse it big time with the approach of the 100th week ; )
3. unlimited free garage space - this basically allows you to keep cars you may not even care about. garage space should be bought.

 

[stormy calligrapher]

I think car pricing is a bit of a non-issue, and as which, it will most likely go unaddressed. It has been addressed that unrealistic or unbalanced pricing is just a method for slowing the progression to high-level vehicles. And, I take no offense to anyone’s cheating on his or her own game.
But with that said, I agree with Canadian Speed, that it would be nice to see Gran Turismo adopt Tourist Trophy’s method of vehicle unlocking, where different tiers of vehicles become available to win through license tests, and then each vehicle in that tier can be won by either beating a time trial or by overtaking a like vehicle in a one-on-one battle, and as the usual prize for completing a license or winning a race/series. This would eliminate anyone’s issues with cheating and accelerate game progression relative to difficulty.
However, there are problems in applying such a method to Gran Turismo, such as the loss of perceived ownership from purchasing a virtual vehicle and the need to purchase upgrades, car washes, track time, etc.
It’s arguable whether paying for cars, oil changes, chassis refreshment, and such add fun to the game; more aptly they are a way of dabbling in realism, which should be fleshed out entirely or not at all.
Upgrades could be handled by making parts available through experience (miles driven, races won, etc.) with individual vehicles or by making individual parts available for every vehicle through challenges or game progression.

 

[Schrodes]

I don't have any problem with the prices of cars. Sure some of them are overpriced but from the start you can see the prices so you know what you need to buy a particular car. The Australian cars prices are good, including the Falcon touring car.
Like others, I would prefer to see an unlocking system rather than winning cars. It would greatly cut down on 'cheating', it would do away with the problem some have had of selling a car they have won only to realise you can't buy it anywhere and you don't get stuck with a car you are not the slightest bit interested in or can't sell. However, I wouldn't like a return to the GT3 system of winning random cars. It took forever to get a red racing Camaro...
I would love to have a career mode in GT5 but for this to work PD may need to buy the actual licences for the series as well as all the different cars in the series. I know the V8 Supercar name will never be in at GT as Vee Eight Supercar Australia are too pig-headed to lend their name to a game unless it is in the actual title of the game.

 

[Dave A]

V8 supercars will not officially be in any game other than thoes made by Codemasters, because Codemasters have their licence, same goes for DTM. The same thing goes for the Super GT (formerly JGTC) only it's PD who have that license but the example is the asme, no other companies will be able to include the Super GT in their game like Gran Turismo does just like no other company will be able to include the Australian V8's and DTM like Codemasters does. Ofcourse not all licenses are exclusive but I believe the three I've mentoned so far are.

 

[Schrodes]

V8 supercars will not officially be in any game other than thoes made by Codemasters, because Codemasters have their licence, same goes for DTM.

That's kind of what I meant in my own anti VESA sort of way. The licences might just be what stops PD making GT a career type game.

 

[RenesisEvo]

That's kind of what I meant in my own anti VESA sort of way. The licences might just be what stops PD making GT a career type game.

And the fact the Toca Race Driver series already plays out the career format so well that PD would have a very difficult task to follow it. Also - PD would suffer in that professional racing you virtually never drive a bog-standard car - safety is just the start. So what would become of the 650-odd standard road cars in GT4? Would they just go to waste? Or will they bring back the 'Racing Modifications' you could do in GT2, turning your car into a race car - something I have sorely missed since it was removed for GT3.

 

[Tenacious D]

The Toca career mode isn't all that clever. Anyone could make a better one.

Besides, in the enthusiast leagues like the various car clubs and the SCCA here in America, they race street cars all the time, either stock or modded.

 

[Dave A]

The Toca career mode isn't all that clever. Anyone could make a better one.

Anyone?

 

[Tenacious D]

*laughs!* Is that your kid?

If so, I can see a familiar motif in the baby clothes there... starting them off early?

 

[Dave A]

Nope, I don't have a kid just a quick google pics result .

 

[Tenacious D]

Well darn, I thought the cars on the clothes meant something.

I do like the Career Mode in Toca, though in 3 it's a bit like a buffet. Little bits of pro racing in small samples. I'd really rather it be like some of us speculated on. I'm really keen on mine, starting in the enthusiast clubs and working into pro leagues of your choosing. I could race such a game for years and never grow tired of it.

 

[JohnBM01]

After being knocked out for some number of hours, I wanted to take a night off from GTPlanet. Well, I thought otherwise. The "ToCA Race Driver" series has a Game File in which you will be unable to copy your data to another Memory Card. There's good and bad with this. Good is that you won't be able to use some other Memory Card to get extra stuff for it. These such of games aren't really about trading cars and all because you have all the races there for you. Just have to unlock. The bad almost speeaks for itself. The bad thing is that you will be unable to make a copy of your Game File to another Memory Card in the event that it gets missing or something. If a Memory Card gets damaged or lost, you won't be able to restore your data from another Memory Card. That's why I hate these "Copying Prohibited" files by some game companies.

If PD adopted Codemasters' copy-protected Save Game files, would it (1) limit cheating by not being able to use other Save Game files and (2) be a good idea for GT5? I personally would want things as is and be able to have copies of Save Game files in case a card is damaged or missing.

 

[Tenacious D]

You should be able to back up your hard drive files to a data card, or even to your PC with a crossover cable, if Sony would be so kind?

I must say that I'm so disenchanted with Toca because of the bizarre steering issues that I haven't even looked at it for a couple of weeks now. But maybe later this summer when I have a ton of free time, and I'm bored out of my skull or something.

Err...... knocked out??

 

[darkblu]

If PD adopted Codemasters' copy-protected Save Game files, would it (1) limit cheating by not being able to use other Save Game files and (2) be a good idea for GT5? I personally would want things as is and be able to have copies of Save Game files in case a card is damaged or missing.

IMO all PD need to do to stop the 'self-trading' of cars is disallow trading between savegames of the same player. otherwise i find the 'copy-protected' savefiles a pretty lame solution to whatever cheating problems they're trying to solve there.

 

[JohnBM01]

In that case, what do you think PD is trying to solve in terms of not cheating? You see that we can't load games anytime in the game. You'll have to live with bad race results unless you restart. Keep in mind that Autosaves can be restricted. What exactly do you think PD was trying to limit that qualifies as cheating? What SHOULD PD try to limit that qualifies as cheating?