Reasons to return to GT4. :( (WARNING: possible spoilers)

[Parnelli Bone]

Hello. I just got GT5 on Friday, and spent pretty much the entire weekend exploring it. There's lots and lots of improvements over GT4, I'm happy to say, biggest improvement of all is car physics.

MY first GT5 experience (in Arcade mode) was a '91 Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione. I just drove this car in GT4 (after searching for it for almost an hour in the used car lot, jeeezus!) so it was convenient to just get in this car in GT5, too. Was VERY surprised to see the Delta swinging about with actual lift-off oversteer as I drove it around High Speed Ring in GT5! In GT4, when I drove this car, the rear never does anything fun! No oversteer at all, unless you're off-road. At best, the rear sways a little in GT4; but most of the time, it just rides those rails, while the front (of course) understeers. Not so in GT5. I also turned off the ABS, and wow...brakes DO LOCK UP in GT5!

The Ai is also improved, which has been well-documented at this point. There's lots and lots of improvments, and I'm not going to type them all right now. But there's also a few things that made me say wow...WTF, PD. It's these few things that are gonna guarantee I'll be returning to GT4 at times, rather than abandoning it forever.

1> No machine tests! Yes that's right, PD got rid of machine tests. No more 400M, 1,000M and Max Speed tests. No more Test Curse, either! Perhaps it's due to all the people whining about how "boring" the Test Curse is over the past 9 years. But I dug it because it's a perfect, static environment to test and compare cars. Test courses are supposed to be boring! Otherwise, any imperfections (bumps, for instance) on such a track would wind up affecting one car but possibly not another, meaning we wouldn't be able to trust any results. Real test ovals are just like the ones in GT3 and GT4: mirror-smooth, acres of space.

2> Roof view is now "shifted" way forward in GT5. In other words, in GT4, the roof cam seemed to be centered on the roof, which means usually we can see the entire front-half of the car (and any Ai to the left or right). It also gives the game a speedier feel as we drive. GT5, on the other hand, has put the roof cam on the very front of the roof, which means perepheral visibility is limited! GT5 feels "slower" than GT4 because of this reason. That, to me, is a definite step backwards. Maybe there's a way to fix this in GT5 somehow; but so far I haven't figured out how.

I know everyone is just going to say "duh, there's the cabin view inside the car", and I do love driving this way. But I get my best lap times when using roof view.

Just a couple things I've noticed. Feel free to add more if you like.

 

[Apok]

Ah you're right the roof view is shifted. I couldn't put my finger on it. On GT4 I would switch between roof and bumper cam but in GT5, roof cam seems so strange and yes that's probably it, they moved it.
I know I'll return to GT4 many times. I'm only about 60% done (many months of driving... actually over a year) opposed to being 22% done in GT5 (5 days of driving).

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Ah you're right the roof view is shifted. I couldn't put my finger on it. On GT4 I would switch between roof and bumper cam but in GT5, roof cam seems so strange and yes that's probably it, they moved it.

Funny thing is the original roof view from GT4 still exists in GT5, we only get to see it during replays, though. Notice how much speedier GT5 looks with this view on.

I know I'll return to GT4 many times. I'm only about 60% done (many months of driving... actually over a year) opposed to being 22% done in GT5 (5 days of driving).

Yea, I've only done the first three GT4 enduros after all this time. I doubt I'll ever finish (or even start) the F1 races, too.

 

[hot_shoe]

I've heard that the physics are indeed better, but how is the tuning aspect of GT5? In GT4 it seemed a lot of tuning aspects could be changed significantly without greatly affecting the handling of the car. For example, the VCD does almost nothing in GT4, whether I'm locked 10/90 or running the stock 35/65 LSD, the handling was only very subtly different. Does GT5 improve significantly on tuning, or am I about to shell out $300 (I don't have a PS3 yet) for some pretty visuals? Most of the time I'll be driving standards anyway.

Funny. It seems all that I can get in GT4 is lift off oversteer, and all I ever wanted was on power oversteer.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I've heard that the physics are indeed better, but how is the tuning aspect of GT5? In GT4 it seemed a lot of tuning aspects could be changed significantly without greatly affecting the handling of the car. For example, the VCD does almost nothing in GT4, whether I'm locked 10/90 or running the stock 35/65 LSD, the handling was only very subtly different. Does GT5 improve significantly on tuning, or am I about to shell out $300 (I don't have a PS3 yet) for some pretty visuals? Most of the time I'll be driving standards anyway.

Well I haven't tried a VCD yet, but they changed a few things with tuning. Some of the changes are great, some seem questionable. Overall, I'm pleased with tuning, as the improvements (to me) are awesome. We can now get decent horsepower and torque figures at the track, for instance, instead of just in the garage. The tuning graphs make a litte more sense, although they're still not as good as in GT1 and GT2, which has full-plotted graph lines drawn into each graph. GT5 still hasn't got graph lines. How am I supposed to know how much power my car is making at 3 grand, for instance? Some folks may not care but I WANT TO KNOW!

Carbon fiber hoods, too, painted or unpainted. A freeer-flowing catalytic converter can be swapped onto the exhaust system. Stuff like that.

Then there's stuff that doesn't make sense to me. Like if you install a Stage 1 NA kit, you can't swap it back to stock. Huh? So they really are just using one engine in GT all these years. It would make more sense to me, if this is the case, that we could buy a second engine which stays stock at all times. Just a thought.

Overall, I'm pleased with tuning, though. It seems there's going to be LOTS more tuning capability in this game than in GT4, and I've only just scratched the surface.

Funny. It seems all that I can get in GT4 is lift off oversteer, and all I ever wanted was on power oversteer.

Yea but what cars are you driving when you get lift-off? I get lift-off when driving some cars in GT4. But in most of them it's not anything like real-life cars are described as driving like.

Take the Corvette C4 for instance. I just heavily reviewed this car a few weeks back and did some serious comparisons between real-life descriptions and GT4. The real-life Corvette C4 is described as being just as capable as many others from its class, many others which cost much more than the C4, and that's when driving it stock. Stock means radial tires.

So in GT4, I put some N3 tires on. I figure that's the top rubber this game offers in comparison to real-life Goodyear Eagles or whatever. Take the car to Laguna Seca. All I get is understeer! Loads of it. Lift-off oversteer is very scant, shows up very late, if it shows up at all. The real-life car understeers at times, but this understeer is also balanced with other traits more positive, and it takes some very hard cornering to even see this understeer start to show up. In GT4, I'm barely at any sort of reasonable limit, braking and brake-tapping, and there's still understeer!

Like I said, some cars do lift-off in GT4 more obviously. Datsun 240Z, Lotus Elise are a couple I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[hot_shoe]

Well, I mostly drive Mid engine or all wheel drive (or both ). That partially explains it.

I'm mostly worried about suspension tuning. How does the new physics engine work for that, as I get the feeling that the suspension tuning options are basically unchanged.

One day, one day, maybe we'll get high speed and low speed adjustments.

 

[BobK]

Hello. I just got GT5 on Friday, and spent pretty much the entire weekend exploring it. There's lots and lots of improvements over GT4, I'm happy to say, biggest improvement of all is car physics.

MY first GT5 experience (in Arcade mode) was a '91 Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione. I just drove this car in GT4 (after searching for it for almost an hour in the used car lot, jeeezus!) so it was convenient to just get in this car in GT5, too. Was VERY surprised to see the Delta swinging about with actual lift-off oversteer as I drove it around High Speed Ring in GT5! In GT4, when I drove this car, the rear never does anything fun! No oversteer at all, unless you're off-road. At best, the rear sways a little in GT4; but most of the time, it just rides those rails, while the front (of course) understeers. Not so in GT5. I also turned off the ABS, and wow...brakes DO LOCK UP in GT5!

The Ai is also improved, which has been well-documented at this point. There's lots and lots of improvments, and I'm not going to type them all right now. But there's also a few things that made me say wow...WTF, PD. It's these few things that are gonna guarantee I'll be returning to GT4 at times, rather than abandoning it forever.

1> No machine tests! Yes that's right, PD got rid of machine tests. No more 400M, 1,000M and Max Speed tests. No more Test Curse, either! Perhaps it's due to all the people whining about how "boring" the Test Curse is over the past 9 years. But I dug it because it's a perfect, static environment to test and compare cars. Test courses are supposed to be boring! Otherwise, any imperfections (bumps, for instance) on such a track would wind up affecting one car but possibly not another, meaning we wouldn't be able to trust any results. Real test ovals are just like the ones in GT3 and GT4: mirror-smooth, acres of space.

2> Roof view is now "shifted" way forward in GT5. In other words, in GT4, the roof cam seemed to be centered on the roof, which means usually we can see the entire front-half of the car (and any Ai to the left or right). It also gives the game a speedier feel as we drive. GT5, on the other hand, has put the roof cam on the very front of the roof, which means perepheral visibility is limited! GT5 feels "slower" than GT4 because of this reason. That, to me, is a definite step backwards. Maybe there's a way to fix this in GT5 somehow; but so far I haven't figured out how.

I know everyone is just going to say "duh, there's the cabin view inside the car", and I do love driving this way. But I get my best lap times when using roof view.

Just a couple things I've noticed. Feel free to add more if you like.

Dude, this is the GT4 section. The GT5 section is thataway.

 

[Apok]

Dude, this is the GT4 section. The GT5 section is thataway.

Well this is more of a GT5 comparison thread with GT4 so it is fine where it is in my opinion.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Dude, this is the GT4 section. The GT5 section is thataway.

You missed the purpose of this thread, I guess.

Well, I mostly drive Mid engine or all wheel drive (or both ). That partially explains it.

Ah, that's what I thought. Yea, MR cars in GT4 do display the most lift-off oversteer, although some of them mostly understeer on N tires. Most cars in GT4 just understeer, though...N tires or sport tires. Lift-off (or any other behaviors) are usually secondary.

I'm mostly worried about suspension tuning. How does the new physics engine work for that, as I get the feeling that the suspension tuning options are basically unchanged.

In some ways, they are unchanged. I mean, you still get your sports, semi-racing, and full-custom suspensions (although semi-racing has a different name now). But is there more to tune in GT5 for sure. It's not like we're gonna be just dialing out understeer for 70% of rides anymore.

One day, one day, maybe we'll get high speed and low speed adjustments.

Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Remy Zero]

Good thread 👍

 

[AlexGTV]

2> Roof view is now "shifted" way forward in GT5[...]it also gives the game a speedier feel as we drive. GT5, on the other hand, has put the roof cam on the very front of the roof, which means perepheral visibility is limited! GT5 feels "slower" than GT4 because of this reason.

That is not the only reason. In GT4 the the roof cam had a slightly different ratio so the screen was narrower and the speed seemed greater. I believe this was done to encompass the whole front car.
In GT5, on the other hand, as it natively runs in widescreen TVs, placing the cam in the same spot would cause the problem of giving the feel of a very narrow car, as it would not occupy the whole bottom screen, and make the speed feel sluggish.

I'll second on your disapproval of the discontinuation of the machine tests. It was a no brainer to leave them out. Maybe PD thought the improved data logger was a sufficient replacement for dropping the machine tests? I cannot think of any other possibility.

 

[Robbks]

2> Roof view is now "shifted" way forward in GT5. In other words, in GT4, the roof cam seemed to be centered on the roof, which means usually we can see the entire front-half of the car (and any Ai to the left or right). It also gives the game a speedier feel as we drive. GT5, on the other hand, has put the roof cam on the very front of the roof, which means perepheral visibility is limited! GT5 feels "slower" than GT4 because of this reason. That, to me, is a definite step backwards. Maybe there's a way to fix this in GT5 somehow; but so far I haven't figured out how.

I'd even prefer if the roof view was made into bonnet-view
i.e much like Race-Driver 3 where the camera is in the centre/ rear of the bonnet at the drivers eye level
that way you can still see exactly where the front corners of the car are easily, but without having the camera so high.
this should also give a better feeling of speed aswell as a different angle when the car pivots in a slide.

 

[Prince.M5]

I'd even prefer if the roof view was made into bonnet-view
i.e much like Race-Driver 3 where the camera is in the centre/ rear of the bonnet at the drivers eye level
that way you can still see exactly where the front corners of the car are easily, but without having the camera so high.
this should also give a better feeling of speed aswell as a different angle when the car pivots in a slide.

That I very agree! 👍 Very good point!

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Good thread 👍

Are you kidding? It's an awful thread! I wish this thread didn't exist! I would rather GT5 was simply improvement after improvement when compared to GT4 and earlier games, but in certain ways GT5 doesn't even compare.

 

[PF]

Are you kidding? It's an awful thread! I wish this thread didn't exist! I would rather GT5 was simply improvement after improvement when compared to GT4 and earlier games, but in certain ways GT5 doesn't even compare.

I beg to differ good sir.

GT5 has actually inspired me to clean the lens of the PS2 (again), not that I've done it yet, so it'll read the disk again.

Not because the game is bad, it's nothing short of brilliant IMHO. I can see a good couple of years at least in testing the limits of the game. Almost certainly more, depending on updates. Visually, it's just remarkable to me. I'm no gamer but this looks and feels like a pretty incredible achievement. I haven't even tried online play yet.

But GT5 has reminded me of how good the previous one was, and how much I wanted to do in the game. Level 40 does not compete with 111,813; I don't like credit grinding as opposed to credit farming; getting the enduros early gives a better lesson in motorsports with regard to tyre wear and strategy.

There are many other discrepancies but I treat the two games as completely different, and to be played for different purposes.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I beg to differ good sir.

GT5 has actually inspired me to clean the lens of the PS2 (again), not that I've done it yet, so it'll read the disk again.

Not because the game is bad, it's nothing short of brilliant IMHO. I can see a good couple of years at least in testing the limits of the game. Almost certainly more, depending on updates. Visually, it's just remarkable to me. I'm no gamer but this looks and feels like a pretty incredible achievement. I haven't even tried online play yet.

But GT5 has reminded me of how good the previous one was, and how much I wanted to do in the game. Level 40 does not compete with 111,813; I don't like credit grinding as opposed to credit farming; getting the enduros early gives a better lesson in motorsports with regard to tyre wear and strategy.

There are many other discrepancies but I treat the two games as completely different, and to be played for different purposes.

PF, don't get me wrong, please. I LOVE GT5! I'm addicted to GT5, it is awesome. But in certain ways, it doesn't stack up to earlier games. Going back to GT4 is like putting on that comfortable old pair of shoes, ya know? And the fact that there's still some stuff (tracks especially) that are missing in GT5 is yet another reason to return.

No Seattle in GT5 for instnace. No Ape Hill (I think). No El Capitan. Et cetera..

 

[porkchop87]

Going back to GT4 is like putting on that comfortable old pair of shoes, ya know?

This is the best analogy I could think of to compare what it's like to come back to GT4 after playing GT5 for a few weeks.

Look, GT5 is great... but the bar was set high from the get go. The game was delayed countless times, it was the series' first time on a next-gen platform (GT doesn't count....), and fans we're salivating over a new GT after what the last installment left us... the expectations were too high... GT5 was never going to live up to the hype...

GT4 I think surprised more people, it did more things differently, and while grinding has always been in the game, GT4's system was a little more bearable. Firstly, the prize car system was better thought out. There weren't levels in GT4 like there are in GT5, which makes it a little more difficult to advance in the game. Endurance races were more sufferable. It also seems like there were just more things to do.

I dunno, I'm already 70ish% through GT5, and I've already completed A-spec... I don't remember getting through GT4 this quickly, or even struggling this much to progress through this game. With very little payouts for XP and credits, it's difficult to progress in the game. There's also little incentive to go back and re-do some events with different vehicles for the fun of it. You may as well just grind a circuit course with a fast car.

Before we grinded to be greedy, and get cars more quickly. Now it seems like we're grinding because we have to.

I'm taking a quick break from GT5 and I am starting GT4 all over again. The graphics are something that will take getting used to, but everything else has been very pleasant so far.