Road Car vs. Race Car

[PeterJB]

Something I've always wondered is, Which is faster? Road Car version or Race Car Version? To test this, I had an idea get people to drive A road car, and it's Race Car version (e.g. Toyota Supra RZ and Toyota Castrol Tom's Supra) round the Nurburgring in Time Trial mode, and see which one is faster. I will put a list here of all the Road Car/Race Car Cars, and will update the times for each car when someone gives me a new fastest time. I would drive the Cars myself, but I'm sure there are people on GTP that can drive much faster than me, but I will put in times aswell.

Here's the list:

ASL Garaiya -
ASL Arta Garaiya -

Audi TT 1.8T Quattro -
Audi Abt TT-R Touring Car - 6'41.030

BMW M3 GTR -
BMW M3 GTR Race Car -

Chevrolet Camaro SS Coupe -
Chevrolet Camaro LM Race Car -

Chevrolet Corvette C2 Coupe -
Chevrolet Corvette C2 Z06 Race Car -

Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06 -
Chevrolet Corvette C5R -

Dodge Viper GTS -
Dodge Viper GTS-R Race Car -

Ford Focus RS -
Ford Focus Rally Car -

Ford RS200 -
Ford RS200 Rally Car -

Ford GT -
Ford GT LM Race Car -

Honda NSX '99 -
Honda Arta NSX -

Honda NSX '01 -
Honda Takata Dome NSX -

Honda Civic EK Type-R '98 -
Honda Gathers Drider Civic -

Honda Civic 1500 3Door 25i -
Honda Mugen Motul Civic Si -

Honda Integra DC5 Type-R -
Honda Integra DC5 Type-R Touring Car -

Honda Jazz -
Spoon Fit Race Car - 8'51.631

Honda NSX-R Prototype LM Road Car -
Honda NSX-R Prototype LM Race Car -

Honda S2000 '01 -
Honda S2000 LM Race Car -

Honda S800 -
Honda S800 RSC - 9'15.126

Jaguar XJ220 - 6'23.274
Jaguar XJ220 LM Race Car - 5'59.124

Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione -
Lancia Delta HF Integrale Rally Car -

Lancia Stratos -
Lancia Stratos Rally Car -

Mazda 6 5-Door -
Mazda 6 Touring Car -

Mazda RX-7 R Bathurst R -
Mazda RX-7 LM Race Car -

Mazda RX-8 Concept Type-II -
Mazda RX-8 Concept LM Race Car -

Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5 16V Evolution II -
Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5 16V Evolution II Touring Car -

Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R '97 -
Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring Car -

Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR -
Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car -

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI RS -
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI Rally Car -

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII RS -
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Super Rally Car -

Nissan Silvia S100 240RS -
Nissan 240RS Rally Car -

Nissan 350Z GT4 Limited Edition -
Nissan 350Z Concept LM Race Car -

Nissan 350Z -
Nissan Motul Pitwork Z -

Nissan Bluebird 1600 Deluxe -
Nissan Bluebird Rally Car -

Nissan Micra -
Nissan Micra Cup Car -

Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R '89 -
Nissan Calsonic Skyline GT-R Race Car -

Nissan Skyline R34 GT-R '99 -
Nissan Pennzoil Nismo GT-R -

Nissan Silvia Spec-R Aero -
Nissan C-West Razo Silvia -

Nissan GT-R Concept -
Nissan GT-R Concept LM Race Car -

Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car -
Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car -

Pagani Zonda C12-S -
Pagani Zonda LM Race Car -

Peugeot 205 T16 -
Peugeot 205 T16 Rally Car -

Peugeot 206 RC -
Peugeot 206 Rally Car -

Renault 5 Turbo -
Renault 5 Maxi Turbo Rally Car -

Renault Clio Sport V6 24v -
Renault Clio Sport Trophy Race Car -

Spoon S2000 -
Spoon S2000 Race Car -

Subaru Impreza WRX STi Version VI -
Subaru Impreza Rally Car '99 -

Subaru Impreza WRX STi Version -
Subaru Impreza Rally Car '01 -

Subaru Impreza WRX STi '03 -
Subaru Impreza Rally Car '03 -

Lexus IS200 (J) -
Toyota Altezza Touring Car -

Toyota Supra RZ -
Toyota Castrol Tom's Supra '00 -

Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205 -
Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205 Rally Car -

Toyota Celica GT-Four RC -
Toyota Celica GT-Four ST185 Rally Car -

Toyota Celica SS-II ZZT231 -
Toyota Wedssport Celica -

Toyota MR2 V Edition -
Toyota Super Autobacs Apex MR-S -

Toyota RSC -
Toyota RSC Rally Raid Car -

Volkswagen Lupo 1.4 -
Volkswagen Lupo Cup Car -

Volkswagen Lupo GTi -
Volkswagen Lupo GTi Cup Car -

Volkswagen New Beetle -
Volkswagen New Beetle Cup Car -

 

[daan]

Race cars are always faster than their equivalent road cars.

Example:

Audi TT 1.8T Quattro -
Audi Abt TT-R Touring Car -

The road going TT has 221bhp. The racer has 464bhp as well as being lighter, and has downforce. Its no contest.

[/thread]

 

[PeterJB]

It isn't quite the same with some of the rally cars eg. the Lancer Evo road cars have over 30 more hp than the rally cars. or that the road cars handle better due to less power.

besides, it seemed like an interesting idea to me.

 

[Greycap]

There may be less bhp, yes. Have a look at the torque figures, then the weight figures and then consider the grip difference between the tyres not to mention the downforce levels. Think about it. If the road cars were faster, why would the factories ever have built race versions (other than making them more safe) instead of just racing the road cars? The race versions will win 100% of these battles as daan said.

Other than that, you'll need one more pair.

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IV GSR '96 -
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IV Rally Car '97 -

 

[Pyrelli]

I can't verify this since I don't have my PS2, but I seem to remember the JGTC Impreza (the Cusco one I think..?) has slightly more power but less downforce than the road car when fitted with a wing + other mods.

Perhaps in this case the road car could actually be faster.

Pyrelli

Edit: my post refers to the spec c (GD) '04

 

[Greycap]

Pyrelli, while you're completely right saying that a fully tuned road car may be able to beat the race version, there is one catch.

The Cars cannot be modified. Road Cars have Sports Medium tires, race cars have racing hard tires, all cars have TCS and ASM.

This is what makes the entire idea a bit far fetched, the road cars stand no chance.

 

[Pyrelli]

Pyrelli, while you're completely right saying that a fully tuned road car may be able to beat the race version, there is one catch.

This is what makes the entire idea a bit far fetched, the road cars stand no chance.

Ah, my bad.. I didn't read that line, in that case then there is pretty much no chance of a road car beating its racing equivalent.

That'll teach me not to read the whole post

Pyrelli

 

[superberkut]

Do you mean if the road cars are fully tuned?

Also: on a twisty course, the Corvette C2 Road car has a chance of winning; the C2 Z06 Race Car goes too fast for its tires and slides off the road. Not a good car for endurance races... though I tried and won!

EDIT: Never mind, I read all the posts and took time. That is unfair, but the 60s race cars may travel slower than the road counterparts due to high power on lean tires.

The Lancer 1600GSRs, Honda S800s and the C2 Corvettes will be close under certain circumstances... After that, forget it.

 

[crimson_menace]

An idea that might make sense: fully tuned roadcars vs. racecars. If that were the case, then some of the roadcars might stand a chance. 💡

 

[PeterJB]

Very well, I will allow road cars to be tuned, but race cars have to stay as they were. It kinda blocks out my original idea for this. But everyone else seems to want it.

 

[AOS-]

because right off the bat, it sounds more reasonable to do this...no?

 

[PeterJB]

because right off the bat, it sounds more reasonable to do this...no?

I suppose it does.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

This is what makes the entire idea a bit far fetched, the road cars stand no chance.

Not only that, but there are so many variables, not least of which is the completely unreliability of using lap times on the longest and most demanding track in GT4 among different people with different skill levels.

All it takes is a couple additional mistakes on any number of different turns on Nurb while driving one car, and not the other, and it will appear one "car" is "better" than another.

... And now you are talking about allowing non stock road cars into the mix... now you are adding even more variables into the mix, not least of which how one person tunes one of the cars and not the other... and so on... and so on.. and so on.

If the idea of the thread is just to have fun, and maybe see what kind of tuning and mods can be done to the stock production versions that closely matches the race car versions, then I think a thread like this might be able to accomplish that.

However, if the intent of the thread is to accurately asses the performance difference between a stock production car and it's race car counterpart (as described in the first post), then I'm afraid there are far too many variables that will ruin any chance of getting any reasonably accurate data from this kind of test under the conditions/rules that have so far been described.

 

[superberkut]

Not only that, but there are so many variables, not least of which is the completely unreliability of using lap times on the longest and most demanding track in GT4 among different people with different skill levels.

All it takes is a couple additional mistakes on any number of different turns on Nurb while driving one car, and not the other, and it will appear one "car" is "better" than another.

... And now you are talking about allowing non stock road cars into the mix... now you are adding even more variables into the mix, not least of which how one person tunes one of the cars and not the other... and so on... and so on.. and so on.

If the idea of the thread is just to have fun, and maybe see what kind of tuning and mods can be done to the stock production versions that closely matches the race car versions, then I think a thread like this might be able to accomplish that.

However, if the intent of the thread is to accurately asses the performance difference between a stock production car and it's race car counterpart (as described in the first post), then I'm afraid there are far too many variables that will ruin any chance of getting any reasonably accurate data from this kind of test under the conditions/rules that have so far been described.

So, what happens now? Perhaps a set of stipulations (i.e.: all available upgrades, no adjustments) is needed...

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

So, what happens now? Perhaps a set of stipulations (i.e.: all available upgrades, no adjustments) is needed...

Again, it all depends on what the intent of this thread is.

If the goal is to determine the performance difference between a stock production can and it's race car counterpart, then you have to do everything possible to avoid variables, and one of the biggest variables is the skill level of the driver, and the ability to make extremely consistent laps.

As much as people justifiably and not so justifiably like to poke fun of the AI in GT4, and the B-spec driver, one thing is undeniable, with the rare exceptions of certain cars on certain tracks, the AI and B-spec drivers are ridiculously consistent when it comes to race lines and lap times, thus often making them the ideal choice when comparing different cars and different setups and how that is reflected in the lap times.

Granted, even that is far from perfect, as the AI is also not driving each car to its maximum capabilities, but again, with this kind of testing, it is far more important to be consistent than it is to see what is the fastest possible lap time a car can achieve.

Now if you also had a human driver who was as consistent if not more so than the B-spec and who could also run these cars at their full capabilities, then that would be great as well… but opening the door to dozens of different drivers, with different skill levels, on the longest most demanding course in GT4… well trying to extrapolate any real meaningful data from those kind of testing parameters is going to be nearly impossible.

 

[Turbo Lag]

An idea that might make sense: fully tuned roadcars vs. racecars. If that were the case, then some of the roadcars might stand a chance. 💡

Thats what i was thinking as well 👍

 

[PeterJB]

If the idea of the thread is just to have fun, and maybe see what kind of tuning and mods can be done to the stock production versions that closely matches the race car versions, then I think a thread like this might be able to accomplish that.

This is basically what I was intending for.

I will allow parts to be added to the road cars, but those parts cannot be adjusted. When people give me their times, I will put only the fastest time for each car, and change it if someone give me a faster time for a certain car.

Unless someone can think of a better idea.

 

[crimson_menace]

This is basically what I was intending for.

I will allow parts to be added to the road cars, but those parts cannot be adjusted. When people give me their times, I will put only the fastest time for each car, and change it if someone give me a faster time for a certain car.

Unless someone can think of a better idea.

How about fully tuned roadcars vs. stock racecars ( with the roadcars having similar hp numbers.)
Unlimited tuning to both sides, so at the most, it'd be: slightly heavier roadcars vs.racecars. Both driven on the same tire compound, at the same track.
Does that make sense, or am I just crazy?

 

[PeterJB]

How about fully tuned roadcars vs. stock racecars ( with the roadcars having similar hp numbers.)
Unlimited tuning to both sides, so at the most, it'd be: slightly heavier roadcars vs.racecars. Both driven on the same tire compound, at the same track.
Does that make sense, or am I just crazy?

I suppose that would work better. crimson_menace's idea is the official rule list, and the track will be the nurburgring.

Bring on the lap times!

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I suppose that would work better. crimson_menace's idea is the official rule list, and the track will be the nurburgring.

Bring on the lap times!

OK, so this is now just a thread to compare the difference between the ability of each driver and not road cars and race cars? If so maybe a change in the thread title is in order. You may also want to refer to the WRC for recommendations on specific guidelines to insure the accuracy of the times being reported and that everyone is following the rules.

If you are still interested in avoiding the variables such as differences between the skill levels of the drivers, and really want to discover how to modify a stock car to perform at or near the same level of a racecar, I'd suggest limiting all your testing to just one driver, and one who has shown to be extremely consistent, especially if you want to use the Nurb for all the testing.

While you are at it, you may also want to evaluate tire wear and fuel consumption, unless the only goal is to see the difference in qualifying laps, and not actual real race conditions.

There are still a lot of variables, even among the ideas suggested, that could easily taint the results, but as long as you understand that, and don't make any firm conclusions based on the results, I personally think there is something to gain from doing such experiments, if nothing more than just having fun with it.

 

[PeterJB]

OK, so this is now just a thread to compare the difference between the ability of each driver and not road cars and race cars? If so maybe a change in the thread title is in order. You may also want to refer to the WRC for recommendations on specific guidelines to insure the accuracy of the times being reported and that everyone is following the rules.

If you are still interested in avoiding the variables such as differences between the skill levels of the drivers, and really want to discover how to modify a stock car to perform at or near the same level of a racecar, I'd suggest limiting all your testing to just one driver, and one who has shown to be extremely consistent, especially if you want to use the Nurb for all the testing.

While you are at it, you may also want to evaluate tire wear and fuel consumption, unless the only goal is to see the difference in qualifying laps, and not actual real race conditions.

There are still a lot of variables, even among the ideas suggested, that could easily taint the results, but as long as you understand that, and don't make any firm conclusions based on the results, I personally think there is something to gain from doing such experiments, if nothing more than just having fun with it.

When people give me a time, they will now have to upload a picture of the time, or upload a replay. I'm only interested in seeing the difference in qualifying times, and if only person does all the lap times it does kind of takes away the fun for everyone else, and for people to have fun is what i'd intended for all of this.

Now I have the official rules. Everyone must do what crimson_menace's idea was, everyone will follow the rules of the WRS, and anyone can participate.

P.S. The times that are already up there are ones I put in, just to get the ball rolling.

 

[crimson_menace]

Here's some times:

XJ220 LM: 5'59.124
XJ220 road: 6'23.274

With no offs, stage 4 turbos, R5's.
The roadcar is slower...dramatically. It's far heavier. Even with full mods + downforce, was incredibly sluggish.

Racecars 1, roadcars 0.

 

[PeterJB]

Here's some times:

XJ220 LM: 5'59.124
XJ220 road: 6'23.274

With no offs, stage 4 turbos, R5's.
The roadcar is slower...dramatically. It's far heavier. Even with full mods + downforce, was incredibly sluggish.

Racecars 1, roadcars 0.

You beat my XJ220 LM time by quite a margin!

 

[crimson_menace]

You beat my XJ220 LM time by quite a margin!

I have proof if needed, vid & screenie.

 

[PeterJB]

I have proof if needed, vid & screenie.

You might as well show them to me.

 

[Rykon Zero]

What about those R390's? those might have a chance.

 

[PeterJB]

What about those R390's? those might have a chance.

Of what? To beat XJ220's times?

 

[crimson_menace]

Of what? To beat XJ220's times?

Given the proper setup, the r390 roadcar could very well beat the 220LM's laptime @ the 'Ring.

@ PeterJB: I'll try & get that proof to you asap. I'm at work right now. I don't have a video capture card, so's I can't get the vid, but I can have the pic up when I get home. 👍

 

[PeterJB]

Given the proper setup, the r390 roadcar could very well beat the 220LM's laptime @ the 'Ring.

@ PeterJB: I'll try & get that proof to you asap. I'm at work right now. I don't have a video capture card, so's I can't get the vid, but I can have the pic up when I get home. 👍

Cool. Thanks.👍

 

[Orion]

Cool. Thanks.👍

Well the R390 road car can out-perform the race car fully tuned with a hideous wing.