Scam or not scam?

483
United Kingdom
London
Hi y’all,


I toke my car last weekend to refill the aircon, in the garage they connected the car to a machine; in 1 hour I had aircon again. All good to go


Yesterday, five days later, there is no aircon, the gas is all gone. Now, I guess there is a leak somewhere, what I don’t understand is how the machine didn’t detect the leak (I was told the machine that recharges the aircon can test the system).


Did the guys in the garage screw me to make me go twice? Or is it just a “normal thing” that the machine cannot detect? They gave me a 2 month warranty in the aircon charge, I’m a new driver, don’t really know what that means.

Any input, comment or opinion is welcome, before I call the garage and I say something stupid.
 
Hi y’all,


I toke my car last weekend to refill the aircon, in the garage they connected the car to a machine; in 1 hour I had aircon again. All good to go


Yesterday, five days later, there is no aircon, the gas is all gone. Now, I guess there is a leak somewhere, what I don’t understand is how the machine didn’t detect the leak (I was told the machine that recharges the aircon can test the system).


Did the guys in the garage screw me to make me go twice? Or is it just a “normal thing” that the machine cannot detect? They gave me a 2 month warranty in the aircon charge, I’m a new driver, don’t really know what that means.

Any input, comment or opinion is welcome, before I call the garage and I say something stupid.

It's not really good practice to just "refill" an AC system that has lost its freon. If it lost freon before, it's going to lose it again (exceptions for if it was not initially charged enough, or if there was work done to it and it wasn't filled properly afterward, or if you did the work yourself and just don't have the Freon to charge it up when you're done). So your shop should have told you that you have a larger problem up front and not just charged your system. But they're probably sick of watching customers walk out the door and go someplace that will just charge the system upon request without addressing the underlying cause - so they just do what the customer asks of them in hopes that at least they're pleasing the customer, even if it's more hassle for them in the long run.

https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/09/why-does-your-air-conditioning-need-recharging/

I have no idea what a warranty on an AC charge means, but my guess is that it means they'll recharge it again for free if you pay for them to fix the problem.

BTW other things can prevent your AC from working, especially a busted radiator fan (make sure your car isn't overheating). Don't assume that you have no freon just because the AC stopped working.
 
Usually protocol on recharging the AC (At least here at the auto repair shop I manage) is you hook up the lines to the machine on the high and low side air AC lines through the service port which are basically schrader valves not much different than a valve stem on a tire. Then the machine recovers whatever freon is in the system, if any. Then vacuums the system, installs a leak detection dye that in the event of it leaking out can be seen with a special pair of glasses and a UV light by a glow wherever the leak is. The leak test may or may not detect a leak and that's why the dye is typically installed. Then some oil gets installed then the freon is installed and AC operation is restored and the technician monitors the high and low side AC pressures. Most cars have some safety precautions built in and if the pressure is too high or low it will not let the AC compressor cycle to protect it from failure. If the service ports themselves are leaking, the leak test will not detect a leak because the AC machine is using them at the time. If die was installed a tech can determine the source of a leak by the UV light and glasses be it the service ports, AC condenser etc. There are also things that you cannot readily see like the evaporator which is typically located under the dash. Also as noted earlier a bad cooling fan can cause the pressures to go to high and not let the AC Compressor cycle. A restricted condenser can also cause high pressures resulting in the same thing. Not all cars have these safeguards and if the pressure is too high will lead to catastrophic failure. It's not a scam and would probably be helpful if you didn't go straight to the scam mentality especially given the problem hasn't been diagnosed yet. Take it back and ask them if they installed dye and it can probably be diagnosed pretty quickly.

It's not really good practice to just "refill" an AC system that has lost its freon. If it lost freon before, it's going to lose it again (exceptions for if it was not initially charged enough, or if there was work done to it and it wasn't filled properly afterward, or if you did the work yourself and just don't have the Freon to charge it up when you're done). So your shop should have told you that you have a larger problem up front and not just charged your system. But they're probably sick of watching customers walk out the door and go someplace that will just charge the system upon request without addressing the underlying cause - so they just do what the customer asks of them in hopes that at least they're pleasing the customer, even if it's more hassle for them in the long run.

From a shop manager's standpoint this isn't really true. Unless there is evidence of a profuse leak, AC leaks can be very hard to detect thus the purpose of the die. They don't have die in them from the manufacturer making it even more difficult. I even have a probe with a sniffer on it that will detect freon leakage with an audible warning when probing for leaks that are very small. But the only way there will be freon in the system that has leaked it all out to even be able to detect it is if I put freon in it. In that respect, the place to start is is recharging the system, installing the dye etc. On top of that most cars nowadays take a very small amount of freon meaning if it has a leak that is very small, it won't take long for it to leak out even though seeming profuse and passing a leak test. Used to be that cars held a lot of freon like 5 lbs now you are seeing a lb or less as the capacity of the whole system. You'd get more time out of something with a large capacity that might work for months with a small leak by comparison. Freon also will naturally leak out over time and the smaller the system the faster it will happen enough to the point that the low pressure switch will prevent the AC compressor from engaging even if there is freon in the system. From my experience with people, most people don't give a damn about all the technical information I can spew to them and just want it fixed. Some people do want to get bombarded with technical info but those people are rare.

Most people =
source.gif
 
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cause high pressures resulting in the same thing. Not all cars have these safeguards and if the pressure is too high will lead to catastrophic failure. It's not a scam and would probably be helpful if you didn't go straight to the scam mentality especially given the problem hasn't been diagnosed yet. Take it back and ask them if they installed dye and it can probably be diagnosed pretty quickly.

Since I'm refraining my spanish moaning-dark side everything goes better in every aspect, I just do what the Romans do. Keep calm, have a tea, call the garage. I thought it could be a scam just because in spain could totally be a scam.

This little Kwikfit just has the machine to refill and not much more. Now I have to take it to Gravesend and they will charge me 50£ for an inspection and then they'll tell me what they find. If is too much I'll just pass, to be honest, windows down and keep going.


Thanks for the answers, you all have been very helpful.
 
Usually protocol on recharging the AC (At least here at the auto repair shop I manage) is you hook up the lines to the machine on the high and low side air AC lines through the service port which are basically schrader valves not much different than a valve stem on a tire. Then the machine recovers whatever freon is in the system, if any. Then vacuums the system, installs a leak detection dye that in the event of it leaking out can be seen with a special pair of glasses and a UV light by a glow wherever the leak is. The leak test may or may not detect a leak and that's why the dye is typically installed. Then some oil gets installed then the freon is installed and AC operation is restored and the technician monitors the high and low side AC pressures. Most cars have some safety precautions built in and if the pressure is too high or low it will not let the AC compressor cycle to protect it from failure. If the service ports themselves are leaking, the leak test will not detect a leak because the AC machine is using them at the time. If die was installed a tech can determine the source of a leak by the UV light and glasses be it the service ports, AC condenser etc. There are also things that you cannot readily see like the evaporator which is typically located under the dash. Also as noted earlier a bad cooling fan can cause the pressures to go to high and not let the AC Compressor cycle. A restricted condenser can also cause high pressures resulting in the same thing. Not all cars have these safeguards and if the pressure is too high will lead to catastrophic failure. It's not a scam and would probably be helpful if you didn't go straight to the scam mentality especially given the problem hasn't been diagnosed yet. Take it back and ask them if they installed dye and it can probably be diagnosed pretty quickly.



From a shop manager's standpoint this isn't really true. Unless there is evidence of a profuse leak, AC leaks can be very hard to detect thus the purpose of the die. They don't have die in them from the manufacturer making it even more difficult. I even have a probe with a sniffer on it that will detect freon leakage with an audible warning when probing for leaks that are very small. But the only way there will be freon in the system that has leaked it all out to even be able to detect it is if I put freon in it. In that respect, the place to start is is recharging the system, installing the dye etc. On top of that most cars nowadays take a very small amount of freon meaning if it has a leak that is very small, it won't take long for it to leak out even though seeming profuse and passing a leak test. Used to be that cars held a lot of freon like 5 lbs now you are seeing a lb or less as the capacity of the whole system. You'd get more time out of something with a large capacity that might work for months with a small leak by comparison. Freon also will naturally leak out over time and the smaller the system the faster it will happen enough to the point that the low pressure switch will prevent the AC compressor from engaging even if there is freon in the system. From my experience with people, most people don't give a damn about all the technical information I can spew to them and just want it fixed. Some people do want to get bombarded with technical info but those people are rare.

Most people =
source.gif

I don't see the part where you disagreed with me. I've done almost everything you describe above myself.

There were a few main points I was trying to make:
- People want a quick fix and think you're scamming them if you offer to do it right.
- Shops should still tell you that it's a quick fix and that AC units aren't supposed to run out of freon on their own.
- The right thing to do in this case would have been to find the leak.
 
I don't see the part where you disagreed with me. I've done almost everything you describe above myself.

There were a few main points I was trying to make:
- People want a quick fix and think you're scamming them if you offer to do it right.
- Shops should still tell you that it's a quick fix and that AC units aren't supposed to run out of freon on their own.
- The right thing to do in this case would have been to find the leak.

Not necessarily disagreeing, just more or less pointing out that the place to start is charging the AC. As far as what's good practice and what's not is a matter of opinion. But the starting point is typically an evacuate and recharge. I agree they should have explained that there is likely a leak and it will likely leak out the freon again. From my understanding of a Kwikfit, it's essentially a Jiffy Lube (to put it into an American perspective) and are probably ill equipped to diagnose leaks let alone repair them. So now it goes to a qualified person who can diagnose and repair the problem. I'd request my money back but it's up to the company if they are willing to because services were rendered and there is probably a very wordy disclaimer printed on the back of the work order that covers the company in events like this. But the worst they are going to say is no and usually can come to an agreement as a good will gesture.

On my end, I'm paying these guys around $40 an hour flat rate for their actual productivity and when they don't have any work to do and are surfing facebook I'm required to pay them $21 an hour because the CA state minimum wage is $10.50 an hour and I have to double that because they provide their own tools for the job. My labor rate is $120 an hour. I will find the leak but many people don't want to pay for it. Pretty irrelevant to the OP's problem and a whole nother can of worms for a different thread though. My original post in the thread was based on an assumption that someone qualified did the initial AC recharge.
 
If you went to Kwik Fit and only got done to the tune of an aircon top-up, you're winning. Usually they spot "something" wrong with your tyres and brakes too.

Another chain's garage tried to tell me my brake pads were worn. I told them I'd find that a surprise as I'd only fitted them myself the previous week and to have another guess.
 
Another chain's garage tried to tell me my brake pads were worn. I told them I'd find that a surprise as I'd only fitted them myself the previous week and to have another guess.

That's what you get for taking street pads to the track.
 
I'm going on memory here but about 2 years ago when I worked for a dealership/garage the aircon machine was left hooked up to the car after a refill to measure the pressure in the system. If it was going down they would use a little sniffer tool to detect a leak, before sucking the gas back out of the system so it (and the customer's money) wasn't wasted. At that point they'd quote for what would usually be a new condenser without charging anything for the time already spent.

Come to think of it that was fairly good practise, considering the rest of the money-grabbing trickery they performed!
 
I actually have a car in here today with an AC leak. We evacuated and charged the AC about 2 years ago and installed the dye in the system. The AC discharge hose is the culprit. Here are some pictures from my phone of the UV light and glasses showing the dye glowing where the leak is present.

IMG_4133.JPG


IMG_4132.JPG
 

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