Self-powered Electric Car Possible?

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Carfreak44
Wouldt such a thing would be possible? If there could be an electric car that could produce it's own energy to power itself without relying too much on batteries and can potentially travel the same or greater distances than current gas-powered vehicles? Would such it be a good idea and/or solve current problems with cars now? The reason that I bring this up is because of two things: one being that being a car nut at heart and love our current gas-guzzlers(who doesn't) and two being that I care a bit for the world that we live in. Going with the first point being that if we could provide an alternative to current cars (i.e. everyone who uses a car for daily activities) then wouldn't that be better for us gearheads as we can then enjoy cars for what they are. It's not really amusing saying that I've got a Holley capacitor and Edelbrock resistor compared to Holley carb and Edelbrock intake. Maybe giving the majority of people an alternative could lesson the load on gas-powered vehicles that we admire so much so we can enjoy them more(I mean who doesn't get goosebumps from a great sounding engine right?). This ties into the second point in that we would reduce the amount of gas-powered vehicles on the road and therefore cut down on pollution. Earth is the only place we call home(for now anyway) and if we don't take care of it then where will we go next? Not only that but the system could be adapted to work on just more than cars so that we would pollute less from generally everything transportation related. Can and would such a thing be good or do you guys think it will be just a flop?
 
Short answer: No.

Long Answer: The only way this would be feasible, really, would be using nuclear power of some kind. That technology, if it would even be possible, would be incredibly expensive. There are solar powered cars but they're totally unsuitable for everyday use and could never effectively power themselves without batteries without direct sunlight.

Certainly, it would have to come from Air and Solar charging.
What is air charging?
 
Short answer: No.

Long Answer: The only way this would be feasible, really, would be using nuclear power of some kind. That technology, if it would even be possible, would be incredibly expensive. There are solar powered cars but they're totally unsuitable for everyday use and could never effectively power themselves without batteries without direct sunlight.


What is air charging?
didn't say it existed yet.
 
I think it's much more important to change the ways we get our electricity to charge batteries rather than implement those technologies into cars, which would not be very effective considering the size of a car. However, they can be used to make the car slightly more efficient, such as the solar panels the Prius uses to cool the cabin or regen braking that is used in a variety of cars.
 
didn't say it existed yet.
You didn't answer my question. What is air charging? If you're able to suggest that it be used in a relatively specific application then you must be able to describe what it is.
 
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A lot of these replies are very interesting, but I'm going to throw a curve ball at you guys. If the car had, lets say a generator on board, that was powered by the wheels then would such a thing be feasible? In other words the car makes it's own power as you drive along. A Prius for example uses it's front wheels for drive, but if the rear wheels were connected to a generator then it would have an endless supply of power no? The generator would work like an alternator and supply the car with electricity for driving while cutting down on the amount of batteries needed thus saving weight and increasing the range significantly. What do you guys think of this theory? It's been an idea I've been pondering for a few years now.
 
A lot of these replies are very interesting, but I'm going to throw a curve ball at you guys. If the car had, lets say a generator on board, that was powered by the wheels then would such a thing be feasible? In other words the car makes it's own power as you drive along. A Prius for example uses it's front wheels for drive, but if the rear wheels were connected to a generator then it would have an endless supply of power no? The generator would work like an alternator and supply the car with electricity for driving while cutting down on the amount of batteries needed thus saving weight and increasing the range significantly. What do you guys think of this theory? It's been an idea I've been pondering for a few years now.
A Flywheel based System?

The Issue would still lie in the fact it would need the ability to move to get the energy to move in the First place.

And Generators need Energy themselves and I can't say that a Flywheel based or KERS based energy capturing system would be enough to power it.
 
A lot of these replies are very interesting, but I'm going to throw a curve ball at you guys. If the car had, lets say a generator on board, that was powered by the wheels then would such a thing be feasible? In other words the car makes it's own power as you drive along. A Prius for example uses it's front wheels for drive, but if the rear wheels were connected to a generator then it would have an endless supply of power no? The generator would work like an alternator and supply the car with electricity for driving while cutting down on the amount of batteries needed thus saving weight and increasing the range significantly. What do you guys think of this theory? It's been an idea I've been pondering for a few years now.
Without any external power source the generator would have to be 100% efficient - more if you want to accelerate to beyond walking pace or ever go up a hill. Sadly, moving parts have friction, so it won't be. And every time you stopped at traffic lights you'd have to push it to get it going again.
 
A lot of these replies are very interesting, but I'm going to throw a curve ball at you guys. If the car had, lets say a generator on board, that was powered by the wheels then would such a thing be feasible? In other words the car makes it's own power as you drive along. A Prius for example uses it's front wheels for drive, but if the rear wheels were connected to a generator then it would have an endless supply of power no? The generator would work like an alternator and supply the car with electricity for driving while cutting down on the amount of batteries needed thus saving weight and increasing the range significantly. What do you guys think of this theory? It's been an idea I've been pondering for a few years now.
For that to work it would have to violate the First_law_of_thermodynamics.

Or, put simply, hooking a generator up to the rear wheels would cause a loss in energy, not a gain. As Famine said, the generators would simply slow the car down without converting all the kinetic energy into mechanical energy. However, activating these generators only at certain times is pretty much how regenerative braking works, except regenerative braking uses the propulsion motors as generators since that's all that's needed to generate electricity.
 
The closest you would get to that would be a nuclear powered car. Of course it would be extremely expensive, heavy, potentially very dangerous and it would be an environmental disaster (what do you do with the reactor when the time comes to buy a different car?)
 
Wouldt such a thing would be possible? If there could be an electric car that could produce it's own energy to power itself without relying too much on batteries and can potentially travel the same or greater distances than current gas-powered vehicles?

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On a more serious note... no.
 
XS
Whatever happened to the micro wind turbine idea? Here's a basic article outlining the technology: http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-N...urbines-Offer-Renewable-Energy-on-the-Go.html

I can't find the article I remember, but the inventors are also working to find automotive solutions from the technology.
It wouldn't work as car design aims to reduce wind resistance.

Energy gained from a turbine is only going to be a percentage of what is required to overcome the drag of the turbine itself. Imagine if regenerative brakes were always in use, it's the same principal.
 
A car doesn't nearly have enough surface area to generate meaningful amounts of electricity via solar power. I recall one Country Club manager relating to me how it took a golf kart with a full roof panel three days to build enough charge to be usable.

While newer panels and better chargers help, an electric car needs a hell of a lot more than a kart. A regular road car has to carry three to four times as many deep cycle batteries as a kart, just to get a usable urban range (20ish miles). Yes, there are solar racers, but they're built along the same lines as carbon-fiber one-seat gasoline racers that go over a thousand kilometers to one liter.

Wind power? No.

The only way wind power would work is if you generate electricity off the car, then transfer it to the car. Which means charging it from an external source. If you want a windmill on your car, this is what you get:
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Possible. Impractical. Still a better way to harness wind than to simply use it to generate power on board. (Google search: "Downwind faster than the wind" and "Upwind faster than the wind")

One other way to make an EV self sufficient is to make it a hybrid HPV (no, not HIV). In other words, an electric bicycle. There are laws limiting the sale of fast electric bicycles, but absent of those, you get monsters like this:

farfle.jpg


A 72 mph commuter. That you can still realistically pedal around.

So, not entirely self-powered... you can't pedal long enough to recharge the batteries, but it's an EV that will never run out of legs... not until the rider does.
 
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As mentioned, we're effectively looking at human-powered hybrids - good call on the electric bicycle!

Electric motorbikes and electric pedal bicycles may well converge on a new class of vehicle that ought to be very useful indeed.

I'd seriously consider an electric bike for green laning and (short-distance) commuting. And those "all-wheel-drive" electric mountain bikes must be an absolute hoot (who needs front wheel grip?), if not exactly value for money.
 
You guys seem to think that I'm getting rid of batteries altogether and relying only on the generator. Let me clarify: the generator provides energy when the car is running while a smaller battery(since it isn't tasked with powering the car at all times) powers that car when it isn't like when parked or in stop and go driving. The battery provides power to get the car going and then the generator takes over once the car is at speed hence why I said like an alternator on a car works. But I do have one question: couldn't the generator be driven from gears with varying ratios or something to reduce the amount of drag? Probably a silly idea but looking at transmissions and superchargers and how they use gearing to their advantage has me curious. Wouldn't running the generator with a smaller gear while equipping the wheels with a larger gear help? You can get away with a smaller generator then right? After all, less drag.

This is your answer. I'd suggest watching James May's review of the Honda Clarity, he does make some excellent points about Hydrogen Fuel cell cars.

I did that's why I made it part of my opening paragraph.
 
An onboard solar generator will never make enough power in real time to keep a car of normal size and weight moving at highway speed.

A solar powered car can probably generate 2-3 hp worth on a good day.

A car needs 15 hp just to keep going at a steady 60 mph on straight ground.

With wind, it's better to use it directly rather than to power the wheels.
 
But I do have one question: couldn't the generator be driven from gears with varying ratios or something to reduce the amount of drag?

No. The more gears and stuff you stick into the system, the more mechanical losses you're going to have and the less energy you'll be able to regenerate. The more gears, the more drag. The absolute best thing you can do is attach a generator directly to the wheel, but even then there's not a generator efficient enough for the sort of thing you're looking for.

Note that some of the hybrids now use regenerative braking and the like, which is essentially what you're suggesting. It works, but it's not enough to get the cars up to the sort of range that a petrol or diesel car can do.

You cannot get serious range out of simply using and then recharging the same small battery, the technology doesn't exist and is unlikely to exist for a long time. You'd need room temperature superconductors to even start thinking about it, and even then the losses to drag and friction are something that just doesn't go away as long as you're driving a box on four rubber wheels.


Anything that is a variant of a perpetual motion machine simply isn't going to be effective enough. You need an onboard power source, of significant capability.

Hydrogen (or any other chemical source of power) works, hydrogen being a good option because it's relatively easy to make from electricity and water, but really it's just a variant on the whole petrol thing. Petrol is the choice of the moment because it's (relatively) cheap and abundant.

Solar doesn't really work, because weather, and the fact that there just isn't that much power in the amount of light hitting a car sized object even if every square inch is covered in perfectly efficient solar panels. It's something like 1 kW per square meter. It's a useful source of additional power, but not as a primary source.

High pressure compressed air cylinders are interesting, but they're really just a mechanical battery. Ditto flywheels. Supercapacitors are interesting too, but they're still just batteries as well.

Radioisotope themoelectric generators are probably powerful enough by weight with current technology to make it an interesting proposition. But even if you could shield them well enough (you probably can, but lead is heavy) there's no way something like that would be allowed to be a publically available technology. Far too much potential for Johnny McSpanner to harm himself in his own garage, and a public security nightmare.

Fusion and fission are out for obvious reasons. Powering a car by direct annihilation of matter is out for even more obvious reasons, although it would be a hell of a quick car if you got it working. :D
 
Note that some of the hybrids now use regenerative braking and the like, which is essentially what you're suggesting. It works, but it's not enough to get the cars up to the sort of range that a petrol or diesel car can do.

Note, however... this is good for hybrids, for avoiding use of the engine at a stop.

But for a battery-electric vehicle, there is some debate on whether regenerative braking is worth it.

As with gasoline cars, actually coasting to a stop typically uses less gasoline/electricity than wasting momentum via engine braking/regenerating.

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Fission-powered cars would be amazing. Huge. But amazing.
 
A (not so) quick reminder: the first "law" of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only converted between forms. This is something of an assumption (it is unprovable), but it holds very well for most terrestrial situations thus far, plus it underpinned the industrial revolution and the development of classical physics itself.

In theory, that could mean a generator driving a motor could work indefinitely (once moving), because the energy just loops around between the two - assuming no "losses" whatsoever (friction, and so on). In theory, this motion could be sustained in perpetuum.

Alternatively, you could draw energy from the (comparatively, apparently, but not actually) "infinite" supply of the surroundings and appear to defy the first law, or you could try to recover all the energy that was expended - which is where the second law comes in.


Loosely, the second law of thermodynamics states that all processes proceed "downhill" according to the concept of entropy - you cannot climb back up that hill without pushing something else down it, and you cannot do useful work without (something) sliding down the hill also. This is an empirical (observed) property, that has also stood the test of time on Earth (but is also unprovable).

Entropy is related to the efficiency of processes, which is defined as the "useful" work obtained as a ratio of the work (energy) put in. For our motor-generator loop, we are implying 100% efficiency of both items, which in turn implies constant entropy (which further implies no useful work can be produced, in fact, but that's much harder to explain in electro-mechanical terms).

Entropy is also said to be a measure of "disorder"; processes therefore proceed in the direction of ordered to disordered ("downhill") - to make one thing more "ordered", you have to make something else even more "disordered", resulting in a net gain towards disorder. Another way to look at it is to say that "disordered" energy is "degraded", and therefore "less useful" than a more "ordered", or "higher grade" of energy.

More on the second law of thermodynamics here.


To maintain a constant speed, the motor has to overcome the combined friction of the rolling resistance and air resistance - this is our useful work out. That energy expenditure needs to be replaced by some input in order not to defy the first law of thermodynamics: namely it is not possible for the car to maintain a constant speed against an energy drain (friction), without an equivalent energy source. Note that "drain" and "source" here imply conversions, not destruction and creation, e.g. "friction" ultimately converts "kinetic energy" (ordered motion) into "heat" (disordered motion) via various mechanisms.


Suppose that we use a wheel-driven generator to "supply" the missing energy; unfortunately, it can only draw from any surplus energy left over from keeping the car at a constant speed (otherwise the car would slow down). So that means your motor has to supply more energy than is required simply to maintain a constant speed.

If the motor and generator are 100% efficient, then that's no problem, and all of the surplus energy sent to the motor is re-recovered by the generator. But you still have an energy deficit equal to that required to overcome the car's other sources of friction - first law. So we've solved nothing, and the generator cannot supply the replacement for the expenditure in the first place. Add to that the efficiency is never 100%, and you see that the generator can only ever result in more wasted energy, effectively becoming an additional friction - second law.

If there were no losses whatsoever (no friction at all), then the motor-generator loop would appear to work. But in fact, in such a situation, the car would continue at a constant speed all on its own (Newton's first law of motion; the law of inertia). So the generator is even less necessary in that case.


In the real world, the car would go further at a constant speed, given a fixed supply of energy (i.e. a battery), without the generator engaged. If you need to slow down, by all means engage the generator instead of the brakes to charge the battery - this is regenerative braking. It's still a net loss exercise due to entropy (efficiency less than 100%), meaning the recovered energy will not get you back up to your original speed. This is much the same as a ball never bounces back up to the height it was released from, and each subsequent bounce is lower still.


As mentioned, this is firmly in the realm of perpetual motion. (Just don't mention "dark matter / dark energy" :dopey:).
 
Note that some of the hybrids now use regenerative braking and the like, which is essentially what you're suggesting. It works, but it's not enough to get the cars up to the sort of range that a petrol or diesel car can do.

Note, however... this is good for hybrids, for avoiding use of the engine at a stop.

But for a battery-electric vehicle, there is some debate on whether regenerative braking is worth it.

As with gasoline cars, actually coasting to a stop typically uses less gasoline/electricity than wasting momentum via engine braking/regenerating.

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Fission-powered cars would be amazing. Huge. But amazing.
 
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