Shift GT5 early comparison.

[Destinkeys]

(Posted this at EA's forum, but thought it might be good here, too)

Well, I've had about a day playing GT5, thought I might make a few comparisons...

In honesty, there's a REALLY good track racing game to be had combining the two, but each leaves much wanting.

Shift completely NAILS the visceral snarl of true racing. Everything bounces, shakes, roars, snarls, sounds like it wants to rip you a new one and take your momma home for the nasty...! But the handling is just plain WRONG...

GT5's handling is much more realistic, in some ways... I always thought that the wheel response in Shift had something WAY out of whack with the FFB, especially in the central position. I got to the point where I thought I had a dodgy DFGT, being completely unable to tame the wobbles in Pro Mode. Corners were fine, but driving under speed down a straight, and it's hang on for dear life! GT5 sorted that RIGHT out..! There's not a damn thing wrong with my wheel

Handling is predictable, but much more demanding (once you take the assists off) and the wheel feels solid and centered, MUCH closer to the real thing. I've never driven a car in real life that wandered aimlessly down a straight by as much as six or more feet, and no-one would allow something that did that on a race track with other drivers on it. But GT5, even on it's most difficult settings allows you, once the straight is set up, to not fight the wheel constantly. Watch any F1, or GT1-3. In car camera, once on the straight, they are NOT having to constantly fight the wheel (or if they are, its' force is minor, at least).

So, they got the steering input right (or FAR better than Shift, anyway)... BUT....

You can't FEEL the road. Most street and race tracks feel like billiards tables. There's a section in the Rome track (I think that's the right one) where you go from tarmac to cobblestones. You can HEAR the cobblestones, but you can't FEEL them. Shift's ability to join visual cues with wheel FFB has led to you really getting the impression that you CAN 'feel the road'. Every bump, change in surface, section change, you FEEL it in your hands and you SEE it on the screen.

GT5, I get the feeling I have been anesthetized. Neither the visuals, nor the wheel give me much feedback about the track. I feel like I'm driving Abu Dhabi all the time... PERFECTLY flat and even tracks. Not the bounce and jostle of Sebring

Add to that, there's little visually in GT5 to distinguish 200mph from 75mph. Graphically, it looks about the same. And yet Kaz has driven the 'Ring... Didn't he notice how the track affects your sight?

OK, next... collisions. Yes, I know that I am against them, as much as possible, but they ought to be a BIT on the realistic side. And I don't mean visually. Personally, I don't much care if your car looks showroom at the end of a demolition derby, as long as when two cars come together, they BOTH interact. If you played GT5P, I hate to say it, but things haven't improved that much. Shift, once again, trumps GT5 completely when cars come together. BOTH cars handling and balance get thrown off royally. Things unweight, steering input gets crazy, BOTH cars go crazy! GT5, they just sort of 'bump', and then go their way relatively undisturbed. On the GOOD side, bumps slow you down MUCH more than Shift does, so it's harder to use it to 'bully' your way to the front.

I'm going to focus on just these points on this post (more to come as I progress), but I honestly think there is a GREAT game to be made combining GT5's steering physics and FFB, car handling and sensitive throttle input (GT5 allows for FAR more delicate input... and you need it!) with the sheer SENSE of being in a car at high speed that Shift has in spades. You can HEAR the car, FEEL the car, FEEL the track... But you can mass round corners like you are on rails!

I'm looking forward to playing GT5 online once I get the steering and car physics dialed in, I know it has a HUGE and dedicated fanbase of serious racers (and the game easily allows them to organize clean racing clubs and groups), but there is a LOT from Shift I am going to miss...

Now that EA have finally split the NFS franchise off from the track racing division, perhaps they won't have to dumb down the steering and physics as much as a game with the NFS arcade heritage. There is SO much they got right, FAR more immersive than GT5. Let's hope that Shift2 takes the best things from GT5, and marries them to the best things from Shift....

And we will FINALLY have the game all track racing fans really want (I hope!)....

Any other new GT5 players got a comparison?

 

[boxox]

When I read about GT5 saves being locked I immediately thought of you

 

[Destinkeys]

Ye Gods! Is dumb contagious? Why have PD chosen to do that?

I will be in touch with them shortly, to get them to confirm whether or not a Backup and Restore of the whole HD gets around the issue. There have been WAY too many conflicting reports about whether this works for Shift's Game Save for me to want to risk my Career and Garage just to find out...

In the meantime, I'm crossing my fingers... had a couple of hangs so far in GT5 - They had just better hope that none of them corrupt the Game Save.

"Cause the ****storm that this will cause in the GT community will make my puny efforts look positively generous!

You got GT5 yet, boxox?

 

[boxox]

No, was going to be a PS3-seller for me, but I decided to wait a bit once I saw the last delay and review embargos come up. And from what I've read, I'm glad I did. If they can make it vaguely resemble a 2010 title through patches I will definitely get it though. For now there is nothing else on the PS3 I'm crazy about and I am sure it will be cheaper after christmas/after the first few patches anyhow.

 

[Dude27]

I truly like Shift with all the mods, the GT like replay, the sharp mod, the trackir patch, the imported to PC DLCs, fabulous cockpit immersion, very good FF... As you said, Shift translate very well the rage of racing a + 300-600 HP BEAST...

Even if I often critic Kaz "crazy" choices (WW van, Prius, Kubbelvagen PREMIUM??? really? Maybe all these time could have been better used elsewhere! removing flickering shadows bugs, put more wanted premium (European and US 2008-10 cars)... GT5 still SHINES in two area: Ultra-realistic lighting and pleasure of driving ... I hope Shift 2 won't stay in the "sport for the masses" with butchered physics and will give us the options to have the proper unforgiving physics that this title deserve. 70 cars only... but 70 cars that you ACTUALLY WANT to drive... ;-)

 

[SeekerOfTheApex]

I appreciated your comparison, Destinkeys. One thing I would add is a simple word: Love. Shift had a really good target with nailing the racing experience, although their freshman outing left much to be desired for the driving experience. I purchased "Shift" when it released as a personal protest to GT5 being delayed AGAIN. However, I use a DF-GT wheel, and could hardly stand the input that "Shift" delivered to it. The NFS:Shift team seems to focus on simply the concept of the cars and what the expectation would be should those cars actually be driven to their limits. That is where the game began, and ultimately, finished.

"GT5", and the Gran Turismo series as a whole, is about something so much more. Folks complain about what the game lacks because we've been spoiled by the limited but complete offerings from the competition. However; the point of Gran Turismo is a much broader stroke than just the racing. It's a tribute. Any petrolhead can recognize the direction of the GT series: to commemorate the wonder of the automobile and driving experience. As already reported, GT5 will continue to update, expand, and develop over the coming months and even years. The game has its flaws, yes. But where Gran Turismo excels is where "Shift" and even "Forza" fall out: the simple LOVE of the history and future of the automobile. All others seem to have a standard of "Me too!" racing experience, in that they copy the general concept of a 'sim racing game', which GT has done for more than a decade. At the same time, both the makers of "Forza" and "Shift" simply trash-talk their competition, saying "We're the better brand." Each game has something different, and yes, GT's competition do some things better. But for what it's worth, GT has something that no other game has touched; and none seem likely to. That one word, which we all innately need and attach to. Love. It's appropriate to attach the final words of the movie "Serenity" to the practice of cars, driving, and the racing sim:

Mal said, "Ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. Know what the first rule of flying is? Love. Can know all the math in the 'verse but take a boat in the air that you don't love? She'll shake you off just as sure as a turn in the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughtta fall down...tell you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens...makes her a home."

And that's what a long time lover of cars and racing can say about GT: it's home. Others will come, and offer short-term experiences that will be nice and pretty, perhaps even satisfy for a bit. But the philosophy of the makers of Gran Turismo is the simple idea of a life-long love for the driving experience. That's what separates "GT" from "Shift", and why "Shift" will always have a "me too" attitude. Shift was a one night stand, which I was happy part ways with in the morning. GT, however, is a marriage. It'll have it's ups and its downs. It takes understanding, commitment, and LOVE in order to truly enjoy the game. But it will be there in the morning, and I can forgive its faults. Because what drives it is a long-standing, passionate love, and as a Gearhead myself, I'm happy to call it home.

 

[femki]

Destinkeys, I can't agree with you more. I love the sound and rawness that SHIFT gives you. I always felt on the edge of control whenever I played. GT5 on the other hand feels sterile and reserved. I do like the control better in GT5 (I play with SIXAXIS), and feel like the physics is fairly realistic, but the FUN factor seems to be missing.

I'll also add to your thoughts about collisions. God, aren't sounds absolutely horrible? I mean, cars DO NOT sound like that when they crash into a barrier or another. I want to hear tearing metal and smashing glass, not GATHUD! SHIFT definitely nailed the driver disorientation aspect of collisions, blurred vision, colour blindness...

 

[mykem]

Destinkeys, I can't agree with you more. I love the sound and rawness that SHIFT gives you. I always felt on the edge of control whenever I played. GT5 on the other hand feels sterile and reserved. I do like the control better in GT5 (I play with SIXAXIS), and feel like the physics is fairly realistic, but the FUN factor seems to be missing.

I'll also add to your thoughts about collisions. God, aren't sounds absolutely horrible? I mean, cars DO NOT sound like that when they crash into a barrier or another. I want to hear tearing metal and smashing glass, not GATHUD! SHIFT definitely nailed the driver disorientation aspect of collisions, blurred vision, colour blindness...

If you're a somewhat casual- by casual I mean gamepad user and don't see yourself ever moving to FFB wheel- SHIFT or any NFS give a bit more excitement due to the visual effect etc. With GT5 and Forza, you essentially feel the motion through the steering wheel and the excitement lies in the driving physics.

I think SMS, the game developer, is very much entrenched and attached to its past games/sims like GTR2. While it's great sim in its time, I'm afraid things have moved on. For example, FFB is no longer has the contrived "you can feel the engine rumbling and gear changing". Instead it's gotten much simpler and elegant in feel but more complex in nature. It's very hard for me to explain but someone by the name of Aeromechanical explained it perfectly on the NoGripRacing Forum (while expounding the difference between nKar and iRacing FFB):

The best way I can think to put it is that iRacing feels a little more 'rubbery' if that makes sense. Pneumatic trail or whatever. There is a certain amount of springy play in the steering wheel around the area where the tire wants to follow its self aligning force. It gives the impression better that what I'm doing is applying force to the wheel rather than simply turning it. It really is just an impression thing though.

While iRacing (and nKar) is at the forefront, I can truly say that both Forza 3 and GT5 captured this essence quite nicely. I wouldn't say SHIFT1 failed miserably but SMS definitely has to adopt the old adage: Keep it simple, stupid.

 

[boxox]

Mykem, the FFB system in Shift is completely different from that of stock rF or GTR2. The controller setup files use some vaguely familiar commands, that's about it. It's a long way from the canned effects of GTR2. Some of the annoyances you see in stock Shift are to do with the way they handled what gets fed into the mix of FFB (rear/front/weight/grip/etc) but at heart all it should be doing is running a 3d model of the steering arms against the 3d model of the game world/surface maps. Rather than the GTR2 thing of "here is an FFB effect at FFB effect level full, run it the same way every single time".

Additionally there are something like 3 different dinput8.dll's floating around giving different styles of FFB by default (iracing/accelerated response/stock) to choose from on PC.

 

[Destinkeys]

I certainly like GT5's tire feedback, at least as far as grip goes... but I just don't see why grip feedback and road feedback are mutually exclusive. In a real car, the wheel doesn't just give you input on tire slippage, it also gives you a lot of cues about the road surface itself. Add to that how the car itself, bouncing and jostling in sync with the tactile cues from the wheel, tend to disturb your vision a bit, and you get what SMS are after.

There's some pretty good subtle stuff going on in Shift to tie visual and tactile together that GT5 misses out on. And it's not that GT5 can't do it... the rally section does a GREAT job of keeping steering physics accurate while inputting a LOT of surface information. So it's not like GT5 can't do it... it's just that in the track racing section, the cues about the track surface itself are so muted, they are barely there, at times.

I just think the best of BOTH worlds is for SMS to keep the tactile and visual feedback system they have now, but marry it to the accuracy of the steering input that GT5 has. I don't see why BOTH can't happen.

BTW, so far in GT5, I find the Rally sections of getting licenses the easiest to Gold, first time... To be honest, I am so used to drifting in Shift (in normal race mode) and feeling it happen, the GT5 rally sections make me feel right at home!