Should the Manufacturers Series get expanded? If so, how?

[MIE1992]

I think it eventually gets a bit dull with every race only featuring Gr.3 and Gr.4. I'm personally hoping that either more manufacturers join, such as KTM with the X-Bow GT4 and GTX as a potential Gr.3 car, or perhaps more classes could be part of the series, albeit at the potential expense of omitting some automakers. The most immediate idea that comes to mind is Gr.1 being part of it, as I think Gr.1 itself has a lot of potential to include a wide variety of cars across many real-world classes. These could include IMSA GTP, DPi, the upcoming LM Hypercar and LMDh classes, LMGTP, and LMP900. And like how some automakers have multiple Gr.3 or Gr.4 options, some automakers could have multiple Gr.1 options, like we already see for the likes of Toyota and Nissan to name a couple in GT Sport. Even un-raced prototypes could be added, like the Alfa Romeo SE048SP. This is on top of made-for-game racers, or the Vision Gran Turismo cars.

Another idea would be to have the N-Series involved, wherein you'd be restricted not only by the N-Class, but also by PP, since the PP system is returning in GT7. The eligible window could be quite narrow, ensuring all eligible cars are as balanced as possible, while still potentially being different enough from each other to be interesting. I do, however, think the modifications should be relatively restricted, so that it's relatively easy to have a good car to enter, at least as far as the FIAGTC Manufacturers Series goes. It seems likely that unless an extraordinarily large amount of cars were added, "inter-class" N-Series tunes will be necessary, but hopefully the PP system will prevent some models from dominating, like the KTM X-Bow and Toyota S-FR Racing Concept do in GT Sport. The power-to-weight ratio could be accounted for, as well, so another idea would be that you could have a field where some cars may have more power but also more weight, while some are lighter, but have less power.

At any rate, I am hoping the Manufacturers Series becomes a bit more fun to watch in GT7, whichever form it may take. I also hope the Nations Cup will potentially use more interesting car regulations, especially involving one-makes with more unusual vehicles. (Or at least one-makes in practice, like if they allowed both SF19 models for an event.) If anything, I think Gr.3 and Gr.4 races should be limited to the Manufacturers Series - at least when they allow all cars within said class to be eligible - unless they plan to have further regulations on the eligible cars, like this one Nations Cup round I did at Laguna Seca where you could only pick between the Chevrolet Corvette Gr.4 and the Porsche Cayman GT4 ClubSport.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I think the strict Manufacturers concept is running to its potential. PD has done well there. Anything else is shoehorning cars into categories they don't fit. The only weird one to me is why Bugatti doesnt have a Group 3 car.

However I think PD should look at alternatives such as a Teams Championship

Each fictitious team determined by PD has a selected car in each category + a mandatory decal to run.

For instance... Maxwell Batteries Team

Group 4: Scirocco or 86
Group 3: 650s or Supra
Group 2: Lexus
Group 1: TS050
N400: .... et cetera

All these cars would have a decal that you'd have to run of the sponsor.

You would still be locked into the cars selected at the start of the season but it's a nice twist on the concept which allows it to be expanded to other racing categories

Results are tallied, like manufacturers, against the team, and otherwise leverages the same mechanics of the manufacturers championship.

Sign me up Kaz

 

[BigShamrock]

Add chinese manufacturers into the game

 

[05XR8]

There's been a thread, with minor talk, about which brand has a car for every category. Mercedes-Benz, Nissan and Porsche, pretty much have all Groups covered. It makes sense to have players choose the complete line up of cars for a true Manufacturers series.

In the Suggestions and some wish and car predictions threads, players are hoping up to date race cars are added to GT7. It opens up the choices. Bentley, KTM, Alpine, etc. A manufacturers event featuring classic cars, increases the scope of FIA races beyond Gr.4/Gr.3/Gr.1. Now, of course some manufacturers are left out: Super GT500 and Super Formula are exclusive series.

I think the strict Manufacturers concept is running to its potential. PD has done well there. Anything else is shoehorning cars into categories they don't fit. The only weird one to me is why Bugatti doesnt have a Group 3 car.

However I think PD should look at alternatives such as a Teams Championship

Each fictitious team determined by PD has a selected car in each category + a mandatory decal to run.

For instance... Maxwell Batteries Team

Group 4: Scirocco or 86
Group 3: 650s or Supra
Group 2: Lexus
Group 1: TS050
N400: .... et cetera

All these cars would have a decal that you'd have to run of the sponsor.

You would still be locked into the cars selected at the start of the season but it's a nice twist on the concept which allows it to be expanded to other racing categories

Results are tallied, like manufacturers, against the team, and otherwise leverages the same mechanics of the manufacturers championship.

Sign me up Kaz

I'd like that option for offline Championships as well.

 

[Canucks_9419]

Considering they didn't even run Gr.4 cars at the Manu world finals this time, I wouldn't be surprised if they're coming to terms with that needing a solid rework for the next game.

 

[Samus]

What they need is WAY WAY more variety in Sport Mode activity rather than merely expanding the two they already have.

It's obviously not the case for everyone but I'd wager one reason a massive 83% of players haven't done a single sport mode race is because it's so limited. Two FIA events aimed ultimately at the best of the best and three daily races over and over. It's not appealing to casual people in the slightest. Sure, anyone can take part in the Manufacturers series or drivers series, but if you're not a top tier competitive racer, why would you? What is in it for you? To finish in 2,145,120th place? Nothing else. If you're not someone aiming to finish in the top 32, it has limited appeal.

Where are the events limited to certain levels of driver rating? Or splitting people into divisions like GTP does so that the slower casual people still have something to aim for, without the intimidation of it being a top-tier event? Where are the semi-regular events shown in pre-release with more variety?

If people opened Sport Mode and saw an event at the weekend for, say, Evos and Scoobys, with driver level tiers and vehicle prizes for all entrants depending on their position, I'm sure casual players would be far more interested. Why did people complete offline events like that in the past? It certainly wasn't because they wanted to complete in an eSports tournament against "pros" when they finished.

This is where they've mainly gone wrong with Sport Mode IMO, catering to a tiny fraction of the fanbase. How many people were watching the English stream of the final "live"? 2,000 odd when I tuned in. Practically nothing, the majority of people simply do not care, and likely never will.

Give the millions something to care about and aim for.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I'd like that option for offline Championships as well.

Definitely, the fact that there's less variety in event types in GT League than in Gran Turismo 2 is inexcusable

What they need is WAY WAY more variety in Sport Mode activity rather than merely expanding the two they already have.

It's obviously not the case for everyone but I'd wager one reason a massive 83% of players haven't done a single sport mode race is because it's so limited. Two FIA events aimed ultimately at the best of the best and three daily races over and over. It's not appealing to casual people in the slightest. Sure, anyone can take part in the Manufacturers series or drivers series, but if you're not a top tier competitive racer, why would you? What is in it for you? To finish in 2,145,120th place? Nothing else. If you're not someone aiming to finish in the top 32, it has limited appeal.

Where are the events limited to certain levels of driver rating? Or splitting people into divisions like GTP does so that the slower casual people still have something to aim for, without the intimidation of it being a top-tier event? Where are the semi-regular events shown in pre-release with more variety?

I think that's a good idea, it would certainly benefit PD to have a casual league in sport mode where you can opt to race in something limited to DR: D. Online lobbies are awful and the structure that sport mode provides is something that PD can leverage

 

[05XR8]

I think that';s one of the points KAz brought up in regards to the enthusiast community. Grassroots motorsports are great for amatuers. If PD could tap into that, I agree wholeheartedly with Samus' point.

I had brought up a point about why couldn't the best D/S players have there own event. Not to say I was laughed at, but moreso, the idea was shot down. Trying to remember, I thionk someone posted would anyone wacth because they weren't the best of the best of the best.

Anyway, why can't there be "amatuer" regional championships? "Amatuer" divisional championships?

 

[ShiftingGears]

I think that';s one of the points KAz brought up in regards to the enthusiast community. Grassroots motorsports are great for amatuers. If PD could tap into that, I agree wholeheartedly with Samus' point.

I don't think Yamauchi really makes tangible points, it might sound like he lands on a half decent idea when he speaks but then the dots don't get joined so that it gets developed into a decent game feature.

I had brought up a point about why couldn't the best D/S players have there own event. Not to say I was laughed at, but moreso, the idea was shot down. Trying to remember, I thionk someone posted would anyone wacth because they weren't the best of the best of the best.

Anyway, why can't there be "amatuer" regional championships? "Amatuer" divisional championships?

Here's why I don't think your idea would work

There can't be an incentive to stay below your 'true' driver rating. Because then you'd just be stacking it with people who can game the system better than everyone else, like people out there who have 2000 wins because they quit every race they won't win. It just wouldn't work when you then take those people and then dangle the prospect of a paid regional final in front of them.

What you'd get is everyone who can't make the regional finals just frantically dump DR so that they fall into the D/S bracket. And you'd have no-one watching either, because unless you know know the players, or they have a dedicated fanbase, next to no-one wants to see someone play a game at a mediocre level.

 

[05XR8]

I don't think Yamauchi really makes tangible points, it might sound like he lands on a half decent idea when he speaks but then the dots don't get joined so that it gets developed into a decent game feature.



Here's why I don't think your idea would work

There can't be an incentive to stay below your 'true' driver rating. Because then you'd just be stacking it with people who can game the system better than everyone else, like people out there who have 2000 wins because they quit every race they won't win. It just wouldn't work when you then take those people and then dangle the prospect of a paid regional final in front of them.

What you'd get is everyone who can't make the regional finals just frantically dump DR so that they fall into the D/S bracket. And you'd have no-one watching either, because unless you know know the players, or they have a dedicated fanbase, next to no-one wants to see someone play a game at a mediocre level.

How is that different from a casual league, where it's limited to the same D/S players that would still tank their rating?

 

[Samus]

Lower league events wouldn't have any regional finals or any broadcasts or anything like that. Keep that for the elite people, but in turn give some scraps for the rest to aim for.

That's what I'm saying, the casual millions DO NOT CARE about any of that. They just want to play Gran Turismo for a couple of hours when they feel like it, and have some fun. Why would those people use those few hours to enter an elite eSports event or a time trial that gives zero reward? They don't.

You don't even have to do it via actual structured divisions. There are many games out there with online events that everyone can enter and depending which percentile you finish within, you get a prize at the end of it. Top 1%? Your prize is entry into the finals. Top 5%? A really nice car, or credits, and so on downwards. Even if you finish in the 90% percentile, you still get something.

Or whatever. I'm not a game designer, I don't have the answers. But I'm looking at the same data PD has, that 83% of players have no interest in Sport Mode as it is, so clearly they need to consider how they can appeal to those people, and it's going to have to be a major change. No matter what do you, the majority of players have no interest in elite eSports FIA events and never will.

 

[ShiftingGears]

How is that different from a casual league, where it's limited to the same D/S players that would still tank their rating?

It's different because no-one watches casual leagues, and there is no incentive for people to join casual leagues besides for the fun of it.

When your name is up in lights in a GT final, it's a bit different. Comparatively no-one cares about the Pro-Am events in World Tour finals either, for the same reason. The only reason PD runs pro-Am events at World Tour finals, is because you have streamers who have a lot of followers competing in them as the amateurs. Otherwise no-one would care about that appetiser either, and PD couldn't justify splashing out the money.

 

[Samus]

Also this is why you need regular, one off Sport events. Casual players do not play the game every day, or with any regularity. They are not going to invest time into an ongoing championship over several weeks or months.

What happened to these?

Mind you, two of those specific races were definitely bad ideas.

 

[05XR8]

Lower league events wouldn't have any regional finals or any broadcasts or anything like that. Keep that for the elite people, but in turn give some scraps for the rest to aim for.

That's what I'm saying, the casual millions DO NOT CARE about any of that. They just want to play Gran Turismo for a couple of hours when they feel like it, and have some fun. Why would those people use those few hours to enter an elite eSports event or a time trial that gives zero reward? They don't.

You don't even have to do it via actual structured divisions. There are many games out there with online events that everyone can enter and depending which percentile you finish within, you get a prize at the end of it. Top 1%? Your prize is entry into the finals. Top 5%? A really nice car, or credits, and so on downwards. Even if you finish in the 90% percentile, you still get something.

Or whatever. I'm not a game designer, I don't have the answers. But I'm looking at the same data PD has, that 83% of players have no interest in Sport Mode as it is, so clearly they need to consider how they can appeal to those people, and it's going to have to be a major change. No matter what do you, the majority of players have no interest in elite eSports FIA events and never will.

Aren't you basically already showing why your concept doesn't work?

But also, because no-one watches casual leagues, and there is no incentive for people to join casual leagues besides for the fun of it.

When your name is up in lights in a GT final, it's a bit different.

It's a bit of what Samus is saying. @Samus I'm not looking for a complete answer. The idea is good. No problems with it and I get that it doesn;t have to be broadcast. No problem.

@ShiftingGears You gave your point about what I was saying, but you found Samus idea a good idea. That's why I asked how is a casual Sport Mode League, different from FIA events that still have the potential to invite players that tank their DR in both scenarios?(unless that';s the point you're trying to get me to see)

Trust, I understand what you both have posted. I get the data. I'm not suggesting that there be a push to make a low ranking FIA event. I brought it up to say my idea had the common denominator(you made the point) of a potential tanking player entering FIA D/S events. Those same type players could do the same in casual leagues. You're saying the casual idea league is good, but no mention of the potential for tanking players. If you understand me.

Also this is why you need regular, one off Sport events. Casual players do not play the game every day, or with any regularity. They are not going to invest time into an ongoing championship over several weeks or months.

What happened to these?

Mind you, two of those specific races were definitely bad ideas.

I liked the Seasonals we had in the previous Gt. I think it was having more choices in GT6, that made it worth my time to try them.

GT Sport, for its "sport" concept, it's been very limited in execution.

 

[ShiftingGears]

@ShiftingGears You gave your point about what I was saying, but you found Samus idea a good idea. That's why I asked how is a casual Sport Mode League, different from FIA events that still have the potential to invite players that tank their DR in both scenarios?(unless that';s the point you're trying to get me to see)

Trust, I understand what you both have posted. I get the data. I'm not suggesting that there be a push to make a low ranking FIA event. I brought it up to say my idea had the common denominator(you made the point) of a potential tanking player entering FIA D/S events. Those same type players could do the same in casual leagues. You're saying the casual idea league is good, but no mention of the potential for tanking players. If you understand me.


I liked the Seasonals we had in the previous Gt. I think it was having more choices in GT6, that made it worth my time to try them.

GT Sport, for its "sport" concept, it's been very limited in execution.

I think the critical thing in making low ranking events work is the incentive to compete in them.

The incentive for casual players would need to be a structured system that they can race amongst other casual players and be able to compete.

For that to work, there really cannot be any obvious incentive for someone to tank their drivers rating to compete in these events besides what already exists today (i.e. wanting to increase your sport mode statistics - which are trivial and ultimately meaningless).

Otherwise, what you end up doing is alienating casual players because they won't win because you've made the event too appealing for players who are better than your target (in this case, the appeal is the tour final event, paid for by PD).

 

[Samus]

Nope, just a simple tier of ever increasing better prizes should suffice to prevent most tanking. Right now there is a top prize and nothing else, other than credits for winning the races. Keep the top prize for the elites, give something for lower ranks.

It's not really any different to real world sports leagues. There is an incentive for every lower league to win their own league but there is no incentive for the top teams to start dropping to lower leagues, the prize is always going to be lesser the lower down you go. It's just important that prizes do exist all the way down, however small.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the lower leagues/events will lead to paid finals or anything on that level. That's only for the elite events that already exist.

 

[05XR8]

I think the critical thing in making low ranking events work is the incentive to compete in them.

The incentive for casual players would need to be a structured system that they can race amongst other casual players and be able to compete.

For that to work, there really cannot be any obvious incentive for someone to tank their drivers rating to compete in these events besides what already exists today (i.e. wanting to increase your sport mode statistics - which are trivial and ultimately meaningless).

Otherwise, what you end up doing is alienating casual players because they won't win because you've made the event too appealing for players who are better than your target (in this case, the appeal is the tour final event, paid for by PD).

I get you.

To me, the incentive would be players don't get taken out by rude players.

Nope, just a simple tier of ever increasing better prizes should suffice to prevent most tanking. Right now there is a top prize and nothing else, other than credits for winning the races. Keep the top prize for the elites, give something for lower ranks.

It's not really any different to real world sports leagues. There is an incentive for every lower league to win their own league but there is no incentive for the top teams to start dropping to lower leagues, the prize is always going to be lesser the lower down you go. It's just important that prizes do exist all the way down, however small.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the lower leagues/events will lead to paid finals or anything on that level. That's only for the elite events that already exist.

I wasn't thinking about the paid finals. I guess that comes with the all inclusive deal of the invite.

As mentioned in the OP, hopefully, PD offer more events. Not sure if a shuffle race works for every race, but for some it could. Some type of weekly manufacturer events wherein, the game randomly pics your manufacturer for that week. Again, PD having the data, can see when people play the game.

Maybe events work like the previous Daily Races, changing tracks each day. Players stay with the same manufacturer for that week and they don't know what the next track is, until the changeover.

Another casual player league could be you pick the manufacturer and race slot of available race slots. I don't know if it could ever work, but it seems not everyone can race on a Wednesday and Saturday.

 

[tankuroded]

Also this is why you need regular, one off Sport events. Casual players do not play the game every day, or with any regularity. They are not going to invest time into an ongoing championship over several weeks or months.

What happened to these?

Mind you, two of those specific races were definitely bad ideas.

I think the special championships stuff were placeholders/provisions for third party events like GR Supra GT Cup.

 

[Samus]

I think the special championships stuff were placeholders/provisions for third party events like GR Supra GT Cup.

That was literally the only one though, wasn't it? They should have been regular, a different one every few days.

 

[tankuroded]

That was literally the only one though, wasn't it? They should have been regular, a different one every few days.

There was also that Japan only Porsche event, make that 2 I guess?

 

[PJTierney]

One thing to consider is that the more events you have open, the more your online population is split up. This in turn leads to less effective matchmaking and/or fewer people in each race.

 

[Samus]

One thing to consider is that the more events you have open, the more your online population is split up. This in turn leads to less effective matchmaking and/or fewer people in each race.

Sure, but we're only talking about adding one, maybe two extra events every few days, and you could perhaps even drop one daily race for the duration of those events to compensate.

Also again, this was about trying to tempt more people in. GTS has shown that the majority are not interested in FIA events on the weekends, so would running another more casual event at the same time really fracture things too much? Or would the same people stay with the FIA and the casuals lean towards the casual event? I don't know.

I appreciate it's certainly not an easy thing to plan and arrange, but it feels like PD haven't really tried much other than changing the frequency of daily races.

 

[meekrab]

I don't mind the FIA Manu series being just Group 3 and 4, even though a lot of the cars are fake, but there should be other series besides Manu and Nations. Give us a Mazda Touring Car championship, a Group B series, Red Bull X car series, etc. Take advantage of the cars that are unique to GTSport. There's 7 days a week and only two of them have events to drive engagement. Leave the eSports events as just Manu and Nations and give hobbyists some variety.

On iRacing, for instance, the Skip Barber series is super popular even though it's practically the slowest open wheeler in sim racing anywhere and there's little or no prize support.

 

[05XR8]

The mock events in the pic Samus posted, we did have that N200 ND MX-5 Track spec version. Some how PD cancelled that particular car. Certainly seemed like PD may have had some kind of MX-5 Cup events.
Ironically, PD organised the MX-5 "celebrity" race, in the Sydney(?) World Tour.

The GT League Endurance races could work. Players wouldn't even need to buy a car as an option. Could choose the country of origin livery or use your own.

It's a bit of shame what was brought to my attention about events having incentives for those that cheat/farm. Something like a Gr.4 458 Challenge like we had in the Daily Race, would be cool for specific ranked drivers. As in, you chose Ferrari as your Manufacturer and PD pick that brand for only those players to enter.

 

[05XR8]

Had a look back at the RX-VISION reveal. Mazda already had GR.&GR.4 cars since game debut. For them to have kept a watchful eye on the FIA series and then make another car fo GR.3 and not GR.4, said alot.

Trying to entice players with the RX-VISION's design, was an interesting key note. Promoting the 48:52 weight distribution and marketing tyre wear performamce, that's something players would have been concerned about. However, the 4-rotor* obviously, doesn't have the grunt as the V8s and turbo motors have. Something they didn't feel the need to address.

Makes me wonder about any other manufacturers looking to join or update their cars for more exposure.





*BOP for RX-Vision : 528BHP/51.7kgfm/1325kg, Final Gear: 4.444, 6th 319km/h
BOP for Atenza: 606BHP/58.9kgfm/1356kg, Final Gear: 4.090, 6th 315km/h