Something I posted on the Forza Forums.

[KeiSlider]

They were all going oh we won and crap so I posted this. I dont think many will understand and keep being immature but here it is

"Looking at the comments in this thread has made me realize something. These are 2 different games, yes they are both simulators but they are for different people.



GT5 is a game not for modifications on the exterior but for the cars, for the people who are in it for the cars. I myself am one of those people and I am forever painting cars onto others in Forza to get the one i want, I find myself doing engine swaps, drivetrain swaps to get what I need and its not how I want it. Instead of modifying a car to be something else I want to drive the car to start with which means Im not much into exterior mods(lets be honest Forza is better at that). So GT5 is more appealing because it has the cars I want.



Now Forza, Forza is a game for people who love to modify, paint and share. The storefront features and auction house are for you to share designs or set ups. I like painting but get frustrated with not having the cars I want and its not an important enough feature for me to sacrifice the cars I want. So its not the game for me.



This is also shown by the games features:

GT5 cars- 1000+

Forza Cars- 500+

Track locations are similar in the 20s-30s

Performance mods, Forza has similar amount of performance mods and GT5 misses out on engine/Drivetrain conversions but has "Racing Modification".



Things GT5 has Forza doesnt,

Track Maker- Although it doesnt give you full control it is good fun to develop and try tracks that you can make more technical or wider/skinnier.

More unusual cars(i.e. Open wheel, 3 wheel, Hybrid, electric)

Used car dealership- Although not necessary its good fun and makes it more realistic when buying a car.

GT Life- Ability to maintain cars and do oil changes/overhauls which again adds to realism but not necessary.

Weather- Absolutely amazing weather physics wise and graphics wise.



Things Forza has GT5 doesnt,

Painting/Decals- Ability to paint cars with any colour straight away and put custom decals onto vehicles to replicate or make new cars/paints.

Engine conversions/Drivetrain conversions- Instead of offering more cars you can convert a car to become another mechanically which is only really needed because of the car list IMO but adds to the fun having a RWD hatch of some description.



They both have gifting, smoke, interior view, Video upload, physics(based on cars I have driven in real life and on both games GT5 is more realistic but thats only 2).

If anyone can think of anything else please chime in as I cant at the moment.

So after thinking about it they are very different. Im not going to mention the Forums because there both complain so theres really no point in saying one whines more than the other they both do."

 

[Eric.]

I don't think the argument of GT5 being for guys that like cars and Forza being for people who want to (rice out) their cars is really valid. Nor that Forza has engine and drivetrain swaps to make up for the "lack" of cars.

Very few of those swaps result in essentially creating another real car. Yeah, some do, but the majority do not. Drivetrain swaps suck this time around. I have no issue with making an AWD car RWD, its done quite often particularly in the drifting world. But the RWD to AWD conversions are 99% not feasible. FWD to RWD should be really expensive and result in a lot of weight being removed to fabricate some custom tube frame sections and whatever else may be necessary.


But anyway, people who love cars generally love to modify cars visually as well as for performance. There's the point of going entirely overboard and making something gaudy, but most of the cars have some tasteful aero kits available, or even just the Forza front bumper (adjustable splitter) for downforce.


I think the biggest difference in who the games are aimed at is pretty simple. Gran Turismo is aimed at Kaz. Forza is aimed at its userbase.

 

[Trustf1re]

The first comment makes a good comparison, but missed the absolute MOST important difference between the two.

Sound.

Forza car sounds/effects are 100 times better than GT5. This is the deal breaker for me. Where an SR20DET sounds like an SR and a 2JZ sounds like a 2JZ. How it should be.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Forza aimed at it's userbase ? Most of the serious Forza people from Forza 2 were so upset with the changes that they left the series. Forza3 is targeted towards casual users more than serious racers. Autobrake, Rewind, Hoppers.. There were thousands of people complaining and the answer from T10 was to ban them from the forums.

 

[Eric.]

And all that was probably from the online situation.


Autobrake and rewind are moot issues. Nobody is going to be faster than you because of autobrake. And Rewind has been discussed a million times on here..

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Actually I know several people who are faster with auto brake and early on when first learning the tracks like Fuji, Rally and Camino Extreme those people were winning a lot of the races while using auto brake where the rest of us were hitting walls and such.

That said yes it was largely due to the Online, both the removal of the public lobbies and the removal of tuning in any lobbies. Also the addition of the AWD swaps and the way they destroyed the R2 and 3 classes.

The biggest problem of all was the way T10 ignored what their "user base" clearly wanted and started banning people for even mentioning wanting public lobbies. Add to that numerous bugs and glitches and you have an angry group.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Be very careful with this thread, guys. GT5-FM3 comparisons are okay, but there is a documented history of things getting out of control very quickly. If I get so much as a whiff of flame-baiting or anybody coming in here in the mood for trouble, I will lock the thread on the spot and throw away the key.

I'm not issuing warnings, here. I have no objections to the thread in principle, I just want you to be aware that you're skating on thin ice subject-wise. So just be very careful for the time being.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Most of the serious Forza people from Forza 2 were so upset with the changes that they left the series.

Actually, no they didn't.

Forza3 is targeted towards casual users more than serious racers. Autobrake, Rewind, Hoppers.. There were thousands of people complaining and the answer from T10 was to ban them from the forums.

No, Forza 3 was aimed at serious racers even more, AND getting even more casual racers in by putting in an "optional" rewind and "optional" autobrake.

 

[VXR]

Forza has one of the greatest manufacturers of all time on board, a maker of as many great cars as Ferrari and in some people's eyes, better at what they do than Ferrari.

I can understand people not liking Porsche, but a lot of serious enthusiasts will want to play in their cars and in FM3, you're getting the cream of the crop, from the 550 Spyder right up to the 911 Sport Classic. Forza might not offer mundane models in favour of top spec ones, but at least it solves the problem of having seemingly 'un-enthusiast' cars such as a Corsa Comfort 1.4 or a 1.2 Micra.

 

[Daddybird]

Forza aimed at it's userbase ? Most of the serious Forza people from Forza 2 were so upset with the changes that they left the series. Forza3 is targeted towards casual users more than serious racers. Autobrake, Rewind, Hoppers.. There were thousands of people complaining and the answer from T10 was to ban them from the forums.

I've been reading lots of your posts here on the FM3 forum and you are completely negative about the game. You say how much better FM2 is constantly, which is utter crap (don;t know why you're so desperate sharing this btw), I've played both of them intensely and as an overall package FM3 is the better game. I've been a GT nut since 1997 and GT5 is the first GT where I won't buy the console for yet I stick with FM3 and this is reality and this is what's going to happen with the GT series.... I wish it was the other way around.

Actually, no they didn't.



No, Forza 3 was aimed at serious racers even more, AND getting even more casual racers in by putting in an "optional" rewind and "optional" autobrake.

Yeah, I don't know what he's on about, but his comments have been repetitive in that sense for the last couple of weeks now.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Yeah, I don't know what he's on about, but his comments have been repetitive in that sense for the last couple of weeks now.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion and preferences I guess. Not everyone was happy with Forza 3, but many were. Just like some are not happy with GT5 and prefer GT4.

You just can't please everyone all the time.

 

[VXR]

Many four-pots sound like a hoarse donkey anyway, so what were you hoping for?

My four-pot currently sounds like a three because I think it needs plugs and the roughness and funny noise is an improvement.

 

[newbielives]

Force3 has better track selection and car selection if you compare only against premiums in my opinion
I also believe their physics are quite equal of you are using only a gamepad
It is when you invest in a good force feedback wheel does gt5 really shine and takes the lead from fm3
In gt5 you can feel all the tiny bumps and the detail of the physics not found in fm3 which seems to have a permanent aid even when you turn all aids off
For the casual gamer forza's arcade mode provides immediate gratification but for the gamer who wants to grind it out and unlock everything gt5 is is rewarding after a lot of hardwork
I think the only question is what is more important to you, night time races and weather or the ability to totally customize your car, that is what separates the two

 

[phil-t]

In gt5 you can feel all the tiny bumps and the detail of the physics not found in fm3 which seems to have a permanent aid even when you turn all aids off

This is a common thing people latch on, but what's quite ironic now that GT5 is out, we find it too has been 'toned' down and it has a permanent 'aid' in the fact that it too also stops cars getting too far out of hand when oversteering, the obvious reason FM has it.. to catch massive snap oversteer.

GT5 IMO has definitely been toned down from the TT, and actually, I don't mind it keeping things controllable if you have reasonable reflexes, it makes you feel like you are better then you actually are.

And as for bumps, that's track dependant, in FM, the Nurb GP has lots of track 'bumps' that show this in action, but as with GT, a lot of tracks are nearly devoid of that real feeling. (Saying that, La Sarthe and Nordschliefe are good in GT in this regard).

People like to rag on FM's physics, which hugely seem to fall down on 'grip' levels and peoples expectations, but you can't argue at what is going on under the 'hood', since it shows telemetry, and from all the tuning people do on cars, it's actually got a lot going on, it just needs some parameters tweaking to get it in line with people's (often slightly unrealisitic, but enjoyable) expectations.

- Tyre temperature is calculated accross the tyre (not just one temp)
- Any suspension change affects the tyre model
- The grip levels correlate to tyre temperatures
- Tyre pressure affects handling and is affected with temperature
- Drivetrain effects (torque steer for example) affect handling and are felt in FFB
- Tyre flex is modelled and you get a lot of 'feel' for tyres going over this edge
- Tyre wear is reasonably modelled
- Kerbs/Track bumps/Off track really affect suspension and weight transfer and are really felt
- Collision physics are very well handled, cars 'leaning' on each other and how cars 'collide' is reasonably good, as are colliding with barriers. (It's not perfect, large speed crashes are very much toned down)
- Audio elements of the physics engine (tyres scrubbing before exceeding peak grip) is done really well

And as for simulation type stuff
- Cars deform and aero is affected with even light contact
- Brakes/suspension/steering rack/gearbox/engine/aero are all easily damaged and have a large affect on the car's handling/performance
- Comprehensive MP Lobby setup (I'd say the most complex ever seen) for selecting race criteria (It falls down on having no qualifying or 'race season' support)
- Tyre wear/tyre temps etc from the physics really affect things
- You are rewarded for having all assists off (apart from TCS on high power RWD Cars)
- Huge tuning range, right down to every geo adjustment, full damper/spring adjustment, tyre pressures, diff settings, all make tangible differences and although not always perfect, it does have all the correct correlation with tyre wear/temps and all the knock on effects.

I'm sure there are more, but on a 'technical' level, FM is actually right up there on many levels as a comprehensive 'sim', but I'll keep repeating the caveat, that it does fall down on default grip levels being possibly too high, and certainly not leading to the nice entertaining aspect that I instantly notice in GT5.. I think PD have done a stellar job in getting the 'feel' of the cars just right, which is largely attributable to one or two key parameters in a physics engine that lead to this, and sadly for FM, this is as far as most people's understanding/experience of physics normally goes.

I won't comment on sound, comparing a McLaren MP24-12C in both games, well I just which I prefer despite no doubt artistic licence taken to a small degree.

 

[VXR]

Many four-pots sound like a hoarse donkey anyway, so what were you hoping for?

My four-pot currently sounds like a three because I think it needs plugs and the roughness and funny noise is an improvement.

I wasn't aware what I put was specifically swearing. I apologise.

 

[newbielives]

GT5 IMO has definitely been toned down from the TT, and actually, I don't mind it keeping things controllable if you have reasonable reflexes, it makes you feel like you are better then you actually are.

I thought that aswell at first but after taking an old 87 RX-7 out on Comfort Medium tires with ABS off and brake balance set to 7/4
It was a pretty challenging car to drive. I've not yet gone back to the Indy track to retry the TT Challenge with a regular 370z on Comfort tires hard(N1) but I wouldn't be surprise if it is still as challenging but maybe with better low speed physics.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Force3 has better track selection and car selection if you compare only against premiums in my opinion
I also believe their physics are quite equal of you are using only a gamepad
It is when you invest in a good force feedback wheel does gt5 really shine and takes the lead from fm3
In gt5 you can feel all the tiny bumps and the detail of the physics not found in fm3 which seems to have a permanent aid even when you turn all aids off
For the casual gamer forza's arcade mode provides immediate gratification but for the gamer who wants to grind it out and unlock everything gt5 is is rewarding after a lot of hardwork
I think the only question is what is more important to you, night time races and weather or the ability to totally customize your car, that is what separates the two

Well you don't feel the bumps in Gt5 at Iracing level yet no doubt Gt5 world tracks are more visual bumpy compared to Forza 3. Even Daytona has visual bumps yet not felt in FFB like Iracing. GT5 does overall have a little more challenging single player.
As a sim fan I have pretty much every sims in recent years including the more arcade ones and enjoy all of them for different reasons.

 

[Renfro88]

Forza aimed at it's userbase ? Most of the serious Forza people from Forza 2 were so upset with the changes that they left the series. Forza3 is targeted towards casual users more than serious racers. Autobrake, Rewind, Hoppers.. There were thousands of people complaining and the answer from T10 was to ban them from the forums.

I can agree with this because I am one of the people who left Forza 3, and 90% of my racing buddies did the same thing. I logged in over 150 hours into Forza 2's multiplayer so I wouldn't consider myself a casual Forza racer. A lot of my friends had different reasons for leaving but we all agreed that the hopper system was a terrible addition. Nothing was wrong with the way Forza 2 did it and they screwed it up. The only thing they had to do to fix it was add a public lobby system, but they won't do it and thats why I won't be going back.

 

[Bogie 19th]

People like to rag on FM's physics, which hugely seem to fall down on 'grip' levels and peoples expectations

Well this is the GT forum after all, so don't expect too many people to praise Forza 3 physics. As far as grip goes, holy cow...it's like GT5 put velcro on the track and tires of every car. What is up with that?

 

[FuzzyFish]

I can agree with this because I am one of the people who left Forza 3, and 90% of my racing buddies did the same thing. I logged in over 150 hours into Forza 2's multiplayer so I wouldn't consider myself a casual Forza racer. A lot of my friends had different reasons for leaving but we all agreed that the hopper system was a terrible addition. Nothing was wrong with the way Forza 2 did it and they screwed it up. The only thing they had to do to fix it was add a public lobby system, but they won't do it and thats why I won't be going back.

Truth, I spent ages playing FM2 online, FM3 everytime I try it's just disappointment. Private games are bounds beyond though, had such potential.

Myself and a few friends also found great disappointment after we bought the game day one. Hooked our xbox's together for LAN play and find it didn't exist as an option anymore. Seemed rather silly to require multiple gold accounts just to do a local LAN game.

 

[Mark T]

I definitely had more fun playing FM3 because of the customisation aspect. I also found the sounds in FM3 to be much more solid and more deep in tone.

Graphically GT5 is much better although the shadows and the blurry cockpit dials definitely let it down. For me the current standard of graphics for both 360 and PS3 are fine. I would rather more effort went into the games features rather than the graphics.

GT5 does have a larger car database although as mentioned in other threads there are duplicates of many cars just with different liverys (also occurs in FM3). I like the fact that in FM3 all the cars have interior views.

GT5 definitley has more realistic physics. I don't think there are many people that would argue with that.

To be honest I think the average gamer will become bored of GT5 very quickly. The difficulty of the license tests and challenges will make this more frustrating than fun.

With the announcement of FM4 for next year I think we'll see a significant improvement in the physics, more cars, more tracks and even more customisation and hopefully improved damage. What FM4 needs is a Pro physics option and another with braking and steering assists for those that don't want the hardcore simulation experience.

So for me, if I want to do some hardcore racing I will play GT5 or a PC based sim. If I want to mess around with cars and have fun then I'll play FM3.