Still think modern sportscars are safe and not prone to blowovers?

[Earth]

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[wrcsti]

Looks to me like he spun out and went in the grass. I give it a year and a half for next you know what.

 

[the Interceptor]

This kind of racing will ever be safe or not prone to blowovers. I just wonder who ever stated it would be.

And I think that this driver easily would have died in such a crash 20 years ago.

 

[daan]

This is miles away from the CLRs etc that flipped in a straight line. The 908 in that video had clearly spun and was going sideways. Cars will flip if they end up going sideyways fast enough.

No one ever said motorsport is safe. It isn't, and the drivers know that. Accidents will happen and we then rely on the car to protect the driver. The car stood up very well to the impact, and did all it should do to keep the driver from harm.

EDIT: And since you seem to want to point blame at the rules and regs and organisers etc. whilst not really caring about the driver, here's more info on it...

The accident of #7 Peugeot (Gené) EXCLUSIVE VIDEO
Sunday 01 June 2008 - 18h56
Marc Gené was at the wheel of the #7 Peugeot 908 Hdi FAP when, at 2:51pm the race director announced that the prototype car of the Spanish driver (and current co-leader in the Le Mans Endurance Series) had an accident.

While approaching the Porsche curves on the 24 hours race track (13,650 km length) the Catalonian driver lost control over his car which spun and crashed heavily.
The Spanish champion was very lucky; after a visit to the medical centre inside the circuit, the doctors at Le Mans Hospital confirmed the initial diagnosis that he had sustained no injuries which would impede his participation in the upcoming 24 hours race on June 14th and 15th. Peugeot have not commented on the reasons that led to the accident.

During the race, you can find other live videos for download on our website at www.club24web.com

This video posted on YouTube by ACO was captured by an on track safety camera.

 

[superberkut]

Michele Alboreto died in a car of that class in 2001... but the rollbar collapsed in that test, which was for the Audi R8.

Modern sportscars have always been prone to blowovers, mainly in 1999. The safety lies not in the tendency to blow over, but the aftermath of the event.

 

[Earth]

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[the Interceptor]

I could as well argue that a blowover is not the worst thing that can happen, as the large wind resistance of the flipping car decreases overall speed by a huge margin. Take a formula car instead, basically still a cigar with wheels and wings. The latter ones are easily lost in a crash, so what the driver is left with what basically is a plane without wings and an open cockpit. I'm not sure if I wouldn't rather sit in a prototype with a rollcage.

 

[McLaren]

The next poor soul will be sad, but you might want to realize modern sportscars ARE safe. That Ortelli incident is more than proof. That LMP was ripped to shreds, and as I remember correctly, he walked away with only a hurt ankle.

20 years ago, he probably would have been dead on impact.

I just find it somewhat offensive that you titled this thread what it is, as if to say they're not. I believe they are, and the Monza incident again, proves it.

 

[Earth]

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[Joey D]

Why would you question the car's safety? The guy walked away with no serious injuries and that was one hell of a big wreck. If anything that video speaks to the safety of the cars.

 

[the Interceptor]

No worries Earth, I won't complain. The following is a very abrasive statement, but I think that the low death rate in car racing of the last years has cloaked the actual dangers of this sport to some extent.

 

[Loon]

I've seen NASCARS spin out sideways at 200mph through concrete and grass and not go flying because of the roof flaps that keep them on the ground. Again, saying there is NOTHING you can do isn't right. They should look into this and see if there is something they can do. Or you end up like NASCAR and keep turning the other way everytime a driver dies until your top driver dies then you try and do something.

I believe the flaps purpose was to keep the car going in the right direction, they only come up once the car is backwards, because once they spun around backwards they had a tendency to go airborne. And NASCAR cars only go in one direction, they flaps would have to be redesigned if they were to be implemented into Le Mans style racers.

 

[McLaren]

OK, *McLaren* the Interceptor, daan, the359, JohnBMW01, and anyone else who shares thier opinion don't come crying to my door when somebody gets killed because it will be locked

If someone gets killed, it will be tragic. We all know this. But the simple fact is, yes, I still think modern sportscars are safe.

Dude, just look at Ortelli. Think what would have happened to him 20 years ago. He's incredibly lucky, yes, but modern technology has helped achieve that. In 10 years, an accident like his may not even remotely bruise him.

 

[daan]

I've seen NASCARS spin out sideways at 200mph through concrete and grass and not go flying because of the roof flaps that keep them on the ground. Again, saying there is NOTHING you can do isn't right. They should look into this and see if there is something they can do. Or you end up like NASCAR and keep turning the other way everytime a driver dies until your top driver dies then you try and do something.

And I've seen NASCARs spin out sideways and go flying. Did Kyle Busch at Talladega last year have those flaps? If the speed is high enough, and the wind gets under a car (Sportscar, NASCAR, F1), it will flip. I also didn't say there was nothing they could do, but I'm not an aerodynamics expert.

I've been watching all forms of motorsports for a long time, and I have never seen a problem like this since the blowovers of the late 90s

I've been watching motorsports for a while too.

The Mercedes CLR driver survived a 5 story flight into trees, does that mean since the car protected him then the incident shouldn't be looked into case closed?

You make it sound like the regulations weren't changed after that. The regulations concerning the underside of the cars were changed after the CLR, Porsche GT1 & BMW LMR V12 all flipped. You still have a huge flat surface there which is down to the fundamental design of the car. Lose that surface, which is down to the enclosed bodywork and size of the car, and you lose the sportscar category.

The car did protect him, but he was a fortunate sob the roof didn't hit anything hard when he headed toward the barrier on his side. Flipping or sailing cars can put the drivers in a dangerous position when they make impact.

Any crash can put the drivers in a dangerous position. Motor racing is dangerous. And calling him a sob isn't very nice.

Contact can flip cars too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPTtTzzSF24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj7TewU5AVc

How sour

Am I not the one who has raised the topic of driver safety in this thread and in the Stephan Ortelli thread? I knew the driver was OK. I'm worried about the next poor soul to have something similiar happen to him

I didn't know how the driver was. You didn't even say who it was. Yet you make a thread about the crash, which only happened today, and don't even mention the well-being of the driver.

I'm not against making motorsports safer, but it will still remain a dangerous sport and you'll never completely eliminate danger.

EDIT:

OK, *McLaren* the Interceptor, daan, the359, JohnBMW01, and anyone else who shares thier opinion don't come crying to my door when somebody gets killed because it will be locked

I get the impression you want someone to die so you can say, "told you so."

 

[Venari]

Waiting for death, huh?

Not exactly a fun way to watch motorsport. Perhaps you should watch knitting?

To be the fastest, the longest, the highest, the best at things like motor-racing, skiing, surfing, et cetera, there is always a risk of death. The thrills we get from watching these people is knowing that they are pushing very close to the limit.

Unfortunately, the higher the speed, the higher the energy, and the higher the risk when it goes wrong.

Now, driver safety?

What you are asking to do re track safety is the thin end of a wedge. You'll very quickly ban all racing at the ovals, most US city circuits, Monaco, Le Mans, et cetera. Racing at the Nurburgring is already stopped for these reasons, as it has at many older F1 circuits.

I think the drivers would be the first to complain, to be honest. Fans, restricting them from having the thrills of their lives in the most amazing cutting-edge machinery? No fear, I'll take two portions of speed and a side order of possible firey death, please.

I want heroes. Excitement in life requires risk, and sometimes the ultimate risk. Me personally, if the flywheel pops on my '68 Mercury when I'm hauling its ass down the strip at Santa Pod, it's going to tear my legs off, implant shrapnel in the rest of me, and then the car will probably crash violently, spearing me through the chest with a 40 year old steering column designed by a man whose idea of safety was not letting a cigarette butt flip out of the ashtray onto your lap at 55mph.

And to be honest, I wouldn't mind going out like that.

 

[daan]

And to be honest, I wouldn't mind going out like that.

[During the Cool Wall, talking about the Koenigsegg CCX.]

If you go though the Pearly Gates, backwards, in a fireball, that's a cool way to die!

I love that vision of just blasting through the gates, backwards, in a flaming Swedish supercar! Yes! I'm here! Where are the women?

 

[Motominded]

Heres how im examining the incident.

Bravo on the car for protecting the driver as well as it did.

To Earth: you seemto get up set to easy, i remember this from the Nascar debate.

But i will say that i think it is possible to design an aerodynamic flap that works of an electronic gyro that could calculate an insident like this about to happen and react.

Simular to Nascar but with a computer brain to deploy in an emergency situation such as this.
But that is only a theory and it could prove impossible in the real world.

We should never stop pushing to make cars and tracks safer (not boring - i said safer), but the fact that he has no injuries is a good testament of how strong the car is.


To Venari

Im an SCCA member and frequent the track as much as i can. Death is something i leave for daredevils. I see racing as a calcualted risk but i dont see it as a place that the fear of death should exist anymore. When im at the track and lose it, i want to be able to race the next time.

 

[Venari]

To Venari

Im an SCCA member and frequent the track as much as i can. Death is something i leave for daredevils. I see racing as a calcualted risk but i dont see it as a place that the fear of death should exit anymore. When im at the track and lose it, i want to be able to race the next time.

Oh believe me, every time I get into the Mercury (or even one of the works cars) it scares the willys out of me - especially on the road, where you can't even drive them at a half of their capability. I plan to put a set of harnesses in both my old Mercury and Corvette, and give them a good thrashing at a trackday, as well as on the strip. They'll be boats, and I'll be surprised if I don't spin the Mercury, but at the track is the safest place to do it.

Tell me, anyone, when was the last time you fell off the tarmac in a road car, and there were three marshalls hauling the doors open on your smoking wreck less than twenty seconds later? An ambulance on it's way within the minute? A helicopter ready to spinup and airlift you if you were severely injured?

Think you're safer on the open road than at an FIA/ACO/SCCA event? Think again.

 

[Motominded]

Oh believe me, every time I get into the Mercury (or even one of the works cars) it scares the willys out of me - especially on the road, where you can't even drive them at a half of their capability. I plan to put a set of harnesses in both my old Mercury and Corvette, and give them a good thrashing at a trackday, as well as on the strip. They'll be boats, and I'll be surprised if I don't spin the Mercury, but at the track is the safest place to do it.

Tell me, anyone, when was the last time you fell off the tarmac in a road car, and there were three marshalls hauling the doors open on your smoking wreck less than twenty seconds later? An ambulance on it's way within the minute? A helicopter ready to spinup and airlift you if you were severely injured?

Think you're safer on the open road than at an FIA/ACO/SCCA event? Think again.

Oh absolutely, if anyone learns one thing from this site is that the track is the only place to really enjoy a car at the limit.

Street racing is for losers and the reason we cant enjoy cars more often than we do now a days.

Have fun at your trackday! You'll get hooked on it for sure.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

obviously the cars are extremly safe if that driver managed to walk away. stopping a car from ever leaving all 4 wheels is impossible. sure you can do alot to improve the car from doing this and that has been demonstrated over the years with the statistics to show the success. but drivers know the risk that they put themselves in every time they take there car out and the only thing that they can do to stop these things from happening is to not push the car to its limit. you can go tell one of these drivers to stop pushing the car so hard but something tells me he wont listen to well.

OT: i hope the car wasnt to badly damaged because i was hoping that the peugeot would put up a good fight against the audis this year.

 

[Roo]

What makes them more dangerous then a flying NASCAR or openwheel car is that they are so flat and when they take off they don't start to tumble almost immediately like other cars they tend to fly and float much longer which is very dangerous.

More dangerous than a flying IRL car? When Dario Franchitti took off at Michigan last year, his flight was extended because his car was upside down, in the air. All those downforce-producing aerodynamics suddenly produced lift, making him fly further. The shape of the car, as it was going forwards, ment it didn't lose any speed at all as it flew.

In contrast, in the recent sportscar crashes, a flying 6' by 11' ish rectangle ends up in the air, losing a lot more speed than the IRL car. Stick you hand out the window next time you're in a car, firstly pointing into the wind (an IRL car) and then with your palm, flat, facing the direction of travel (a sportscar). That's the difference. Couple that with the fact that single seaters are more likely to meet wheel to wheel and thus will fly in a straight line, whereas sportscars are more likely to flip whilst going sideways and presenting a large surface, slowing he car down whilst in the air.

Safety is also about the track. You can build the safest car in the world but if the track is dangerous it doesn't matter. Same thing with the car. Just because you get lucky like the CLR drivers who flipped over 2-3 times at Le Mans and the car protects you doesn't mean you shouldn't fix the blowover problem. I think the lackadaisy attitude over these incidents is due to the fact they aren't as spectacular as the blowovers, but the results can be just as devestating

As well as what daan mentioned above, don't forget that the hill on the Mulsanne straight - where at least 2 of the Mercedes flipped (can't remember where the third one was) - was flattened by 6 feet, with a shallower incline and descent. They haven't had a car flipping there since.

In any case, how do you know the rules aren't being worked on? This crash happened less than 24 hours ago - you can't expect the ACO to present a solution in that length of time. I suspect if they do make a rule change, it'll come into force next year.

OT: i hope the car wasnt to badly damaged because i was hoping that the peugeot would put up a good fight against the audis this year.

I think they should be allowed to build a new car. From Autosport:

The No.7 chassis was destroyed in the impact and Peugeot have asked the race stewards for permission to build up another car in time for qualifying on June 11.

Gene has a hairline fracture on his toe. He should be fit to drive for qualifying on the 11th June.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

@Roo: thats good to hear that thats the only injury he got and is cleared to race hopefully they will be allowed to build another chassis. im sure it wouldnt be to hard for the stewards to do an extra car inspection before qualifying just gotta find away to convince those french

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

When a car has a mechanical failure or if a driver makes a mistake and it spins through the grass or concrete it is not suppose to go airborne

When a car is out of control, as seen in that video, or like Ortelli's dramatic crash, and like others, there is very little that can be done to make it do anything specifically... except hopefully protect the passenger inside.

Come on Earth... whether you wish to agree or not racing governing bodies have played critical roles in making all forms of racing sports safer, and not just the driver’s safety either. Engineers with far more experience than you and I spend their careers designing race cars without the intention of making them more susceptible to being destroyed in a crash and risking the lives of the drivers inside.

These things, while frightening and often tragic, are also a part of racing. In fact, show me one race car driver who feels that in no way is he ever risking his life the moment he sits down in a race car.

I remember when the governing body of NASCAR announced they were going to enforce the use of the HANNS device, which was purely for the safty of the driver. Many of the drivers in NASCAR where very upset, as they felt it would negatively impact their performance due to what they felt was going to be to restricrtive to their head movement in the car. If it were up to the drivers, I bet we wouldn't see more than half the safety innovations and restrictions that are in place today.

That said, part of what makes motor sport racing so popular, whether it be planes, boats, or cars, is seeing individuals with amazing response skills, taking their machines to the edge of their abilities.

Sure, governments and or organized racing bodies have and will set guidelines to better protect the drivers, pit crews, and crowds, but at the same time and the drivers, and the pit crews and the crowds all love these sports for much of the same reason, and that's the absolute thrill of seeing man and machine performing at unbelievable levels, and unless you want robot driven vehicles, and or vehicles with severe performance handicaps, things like this are always going to happen.

Heck, I am definitely not a fan of seeing crashes. In fact, my favorite F1 races are when there are no crashes at all. However, if you are truly concerned about this, then I guess I would suggest that you stop following all forms of racing sports as they all have levels of risk, of which many can result in a fatality.

Now if you actually have some real possible solutions to what you consider unsafe design features in these cars, or the tracks/courses they use, then by all means you should share this with the people who can actually use that information. Otherwise, I'm not really sure what it is you are asking us to do about this.

Any crash can put the drivers in a dangerous position. Motor racing is dangerous. And calling him a sob isn't very nice.

Contact can flip cars too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPTtTzzSF24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj7TewU5AVc


I didn't know how the driver was. You didn't even say who it was. Yet you make a thread about the crash, which only happened today, and don't even mention the well-being of the driver.

I'm not against making motorsports safer, but it will still remain a dangerous sport and you'll never completely eliminate danger.

QFT

EDIT:
I get the impression you want someone to die so you can say, "told you so."

Let's hope neither is the case.

 

[Earth]

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[Joey D]

He walked away from the car without appearance of any major injuries

Which still proves that modern racecars are extremely safe and built to fully protect the driver.

 

[Ardius]

Oh no oh no...another scary crash caused by the car lifting off the ground

Hedeki Noda spun his LMP2 car entering the first chicane at Le Mans and it promptly went airborne and when it hit the earth again the car flipped 8 times....

He walked away from the car without appearance of any major injuries

Yup, I watching that also. Turns out it was because of oil dropped by an earlier car, I think it was one of the Creation cars.

 

[the Interceptor]

Hideki Noda spun his LMP2 car entering the first chicane at Le Mans and it promptly went airborne and when it hit the earth again the car flipped 8 times....

He walked away from the car without appearance of any major injuries

So what was your concern again?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Which still proves that modern racecars are extremely safe and built to fully protect the driver.

+1 QFT 👍

 

[MustangSVT]

I don't get the point of this thread. You (earth) has just proven how safe modern sports cars are by explicitly describing how bad these crashes were, yet the drivers walked away without any injuries. What's your point?

The most recent deaths I can recall in sports car racing are Michael Park's (co-driver) death in WRC back at UK rally stage in 2006 I believe it was (WRC after all is the most dangerous racing sport of them all), and Greg Moore back at the end of '99 or '00 (do not remember which year it was), and Dale Earnhardt Sr. in 2001. Neither Greg Moore nor Earndhart Sr. had HANS devices at the time I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Gil Abobeleira]

The problem is if this happens near a spectator area (55 all over again).

After seeing the lola flip at relatively slow speed, I wonder...