Suspendedhatch tunes (handling)

[suspendedhatch]

I'm confounded by the other tuning setups. I'd like to post up some of mine for people to try out and let me know what they think. If the responses are positive I'll post up some more and throw in some theory. Criticism is of course, welcome.

Here is my starting point for FF tunes

FF medium to long street tracks
Works particularly well on newer Hondas ie. 01 and 04 Civic EP, 08 Civic Type R, RSX/DC5, Integra Type R 95-01

Ride Height Adjustment = F: -25 R:-23 (range varies)
Spring Rate = F: 10.0 R: 7.0 (based on weight and weight distribution)
Dampers (Extension) = F: 7 R: 5
Dampers (Compression) = F: 7 R: 7
Anti-Roll Bars = 5:6
Camber = F: 3.5 R: 0.9
Toe Angle = F: 0.00 R: -0.10

Initial Torque: 50
Acceleration Sensitivity: 60
Braking Sensitivity: 15

Brake Balance: F: 8 R: 9

ABS: 3
Traction Control: 3


Same cars but for very tight tracks:

Ride Height Adjustment = F: -22 R:-22
Spring Rate = F: 8.0 R: 5.5
Dampers (Extension) = F: 7 R: 4
Dampers (Compression) = F: 5 R: 7
Anti-Roll Bars = F: 5 R:6
Camber = F: 2.5 R: 0.5
Toe Angle = F: 0.00 R: -0.20

Initial Torque: 45
Acceleration Sensitivity: 60
Braking Sensitivity: 15

Brake Balance: F: 8 R: 8

ABS: 3
Traction Control: 3


ABS and Traction control are a big help with high powered FF cars, particularly when using a joystick and not the wheel. Any ballast should be added to the rear and then the spring rates adjusted accordingly (more on this if I go into theory later).


Now for the older Hondas, I found that the spring rates had to be higher and the dampers had to be more aggressive. I developed this tune while doing the seasonal FF race. All weight reductions, adjustable trans according to the track, low range turbo kit. I almost always buy all the mods that don't affect PP ie clutch and flywheel.

For example, here are my tunes for 91, 92, 93, 95 Civic EG, 90 CRX

Tight tracks

Ride Height Adjustment = F: -23 R:-23
Spring Rate = F: 14 R: 9.4
Dampers (Extension) = F: 10 R: 8
Dampers (Compression) = F: 9 R: 8
Anti-Roll Bars = F: 5 R: 6
Camber = F: 3.0 R: 1.0
Toe Angle = F: 0.00 R: -0.20

Initial Torque: 45
Acceleration Sensitivity: 60
Braking Sensitivity: 30

Brake Balance: F: 9 R: 9

ABS: 3
Traction Control: 3


When people say FF cars understeer, this leads me to believe they don't have the spring rates set accordingly, aren't using LSD, and aren't driving the car like it should be driven. Toe is CRITICAL. The game defaults to +.2 in the rear when you get the fully customizable suspension, but this is BAD BAD BAD for anything other than high-powered FR and MR cars.

I'll elaborate on this if anyone is interested. I have a very good grasp of what each adjustment affects and "when". The game's descriptions are far too broad. The key to setting up a car is to identify the problem and under what conditions it's occurring.


It's very interesting to compare a FF to another layout's tune. Not so much by looking at the numbers, but by understanding what adjustments are made and why.

For example, 4WD. Here's my 02 STi tune (likely to work the same for all STi's):

Ride Height Adjustment = F: -21 R:-20
Spring Rate = F: 13.9 R: 11.7
Dampers (Extension) = F: 8 R: 9
Dampers (Compression) = F: 10 R: 8
Anti-Roll Bars = F: 6 R: 6
Camber = F: 3.0 R: 2.4
Toe Angle = F: -0.10 R: -0.10

Initial Torque: F: 25 R: 25
Acceleration Sensitivity: F: 10 R: 15
Braking Sensitivity: F: 60 R: 45

Brake Balance: F: 7 R: 8

Torque Split: F: 35 R: 65

ABS: 3
Traction Control: 0

All weight reductions, Low RPM turbo, all non-PP parts except adjustable center diff since the car comes like that stock, and then parts adding HP until you reach 530PP although I found it easy to beat most of the seasonal 4WD with 470PP.


Hopefully this post generates some interest. It's much more useful to you if I describe HOW to tune the car rather than provide a handful of tunes, but to be taken seriously I have to generate some credibility.

 

[JeremiahTB]

Looks like you put a lot of thought into it. I'll definitely try it out; and if it works, I'm going to subscribe so I have a good reference point.

 

[rams1de]

I'm interested to know what you find confounding about other tuning set ups.

Looking at your set ups, you seem to be following long accepted methods for balancing Spring Rates and tuning out understeer in GT5.

Most tuners here use ABS1 and TC off also Brake Balance is seen as very much personal preference. Other than high ARB and LSD settings, the tunes look quite standard for low ride height.

 

[Taz69]

Why do you use a higher compression damper setting than extension on the front. The game says extension should be higher than cmpression so just wondering what you found that has the compression higher han the extension on the front.

 

[suspendedhatch]

Thanks for the responses.

rams1de : I was confounded by the FF tunes on cars that I'm familiar with; specifically. Some settings were contradictory to others, some would make the weaknesses of front wheel drive worse.

I used to turn ABS and TCS off for all cars on GT3 once I got the wheel, and I still do when tuning. The purist in me wants to turn it off, but the fact is you're looking at a screen and controlling the car with a joystick. You don't feel the road, you don't feel the gravity. The driving settings make up for this. Start at zero and turn it up only as much as you need it. The lower the better. You don't need TCS on a 4WD (outside of maybe the Suzuki Pikes Peak), only FF and really high-powered rear wheel drives.

Taz69: The game's descriptions don't take into account the way you make adjustments in the game. While the springs, camber, and toe angle have absolute values, the struts and swaybars are relative to the car's OEM settings. These initial settings are some value that we don't know, and we are increasing or decreasing it from that point. If the rear struts are stiffer than the front from the factory, then it will be still as long as the game's settings on the front and rear match.

Besides that, the descriptions are very oversimplified to the point where a real life tuner would take issue with some things.

This is unfortunate because the strut settings allow you to change the car's behavior on corner entry, mid corner, and corner exit independently. Most of the tunes overlook the importance of them or seem to be using some false basis for setting them.


To tune a car's handling you have to understand how a car behaves. That way you can identify what it is you're trying to achieve and which setting affects it.

Strut Tuning

The most important thing to think about with strut tuning is weight shift. When you hit the gas, the weight shifts onto the rear tires. This gives them more traction. Simultaneously, it shifts off of the front tires giving you less traction to steer and accelerate (if the fronts are your drive wheels). In a turn, the weight shifts onto the opposite of the direction you're turning. Turn left, the right tires get more traction and the left tires get less.

Now combine these to understand what's going on in a turn. You begin braking in a straight line, the weight shifts onto the front tires. Then you turn in while still braking, the weight shifts onto your front outside tire. This one tire is responsible for the majority of the braking and turning. It's the most important tire at this point in the turn. Mid corner, you left off the brakes and the weight is evenly balanced on the front and rear OUTSIDE tires. Finally, you accelerate and the weight shifts onto the rear outside tire. Break the turn into 3 separate sections, determine where the problem is, then apply your settings directly to that situation.

Increasing the numbers increases the resistance to weight shift, relative to the car's real life setting. Increasing compression on the front delays the weight shift on the front tires, mainly affecting the front but also affecting the rear extension to a much lesser extent. Increasing the extension on the front delays the weight shift off the front tires.

This one setting (front extension) in particular is CRITICAL on a front wheel drive. A front wheel drive car can't turn and accelerate if the front tires lose all traction on corner exit. Increasing the front extension will delay the weight shift off the front tires.

Front compression is also important because FF cars are front heavy. If your weight distribution is 60/40, you can easily overload the front tires on heavy braking. Increasing the front compression can help.

These two considerations explain why my tunes have the front wheels stiffened more than the rear.

So.. what's this concept of "delay"? There's no need for me to go over the purpose of struts for you to understand how to tune them. Just know that the strut setting doesn't have a permanent effect on the stiffness like the springs do. The struts are only in play while the weight is shifting. If you've been playing for a while, you understand that going from hard braking directly into hard acceleration, or that a sudden jerk from left to right will break the tires loose; while a more gradual change does not. The action of the struts is similar to this more gradual shift, but it's on a level that you can't compensate for simply with more careful driving.

"So more is always better?" No. Actually, LESS is better, and this is true of most settings. The stiffer the springs, struts, and swaybars are, the LESS traction you have. The car will hop around with the tires unable to keep contact with and even pressure against the road. Too loose and the car will body roll excessively and the springs will be underdamped, causing the car to bounce again after the initial bump. Very smooth, freshly paved race tracks will benefit from stiffer settings while offroad tracks, rain, or poor pavement benefit from looser settings.

When tuning the car, it helps to push it too hard to find it's limitations. It's common to come in for a turn after a long straight and lock up the front end and slide right off the track. Increasing the front compression will lessen this affect and aid turn in in this situation, as will increasing the front spring rate. Increasing the front spring rate requires increasing the rear spring rate to avoid throwing the car off balance. More on that later.

Mid turn when you're neither accelerating or braking (long sweeping turn) is more dependent on swaybars and camber than anything else. Long, high speed turns require more negative camber, but more camber on the front comes at the expensive of braking and heavy acceleration. When you exceed the limits of the tires, the tire display will glow red. If the front outside tire glows red, this suggests trying an increase in the front swaybar. If both front tires turn red (usually the outside first then the inside), then you need to stiffen the rear. When both outside tires glow red at about the same time, this suggests increasing the negative camber or both swaybars, but it can also mean you're simply going too fast in a car that's too heavy on tires that are too hard.

On corner exit, a high powered FF will want to go straight on acceleration. If you have TCS on, the top of your acceleration indicator will be red indicating the game is backing off the throttle for you. For tuning you want to turn TCS off or just work on getting rid of that red. LSD comes heavily into play here on the initial torque and acceleration sensitivity, but you want to use the front strut extension and to a lesser extent, the rear compression to smooth the weight shift transition and maximize corner exit.

Rear strut compression will often be the softest setting because for the most part, having the back of the car in compression is fine. If the front resists extension and the back is in compression, it's like the car is smashed downward and that's a good thing. It's similar to adding downforce on the rear. Again, my strut settings often end up softer on the rear than the front.

One thing I mentioned earlier was that a certain tire was more important - doing more of the work than the other tires at a particular point. This tires settings: (camber, toe, spring rate, damper rate, swaybar rate, LSD) all need to be looked at in order to optimize that particular situation. Nearly all settings will compromise performance in some other situation. In order to decrease your lap times, you have to weigh the what situation is more critical. This may vary by track, even. Corner exit before a long straight is absolutely critical. If you compromise the car during low speed, quick turns, that's okay. However if you're on the go kart track, all twisties and no long straights, you're going to want to optimize the car differently.

That segues into spring rates and the overall goal in achieving a neutral balance vs oversteer which most people believe is the ultimate goal. Apparently I've already written a novel here so I'll save that for later.

 

[JeremiahTB]

Once again, a ton of great information here. Keep up the good work. It's only a matter of time before a moderator takes notice and throws this information onto a Sticky.

 

[suspendedhatch]

Thanks.

I think someone should name a FF or 4WD car, track, and PP. I'll try my hand at tuning it and see what you think.

FYI not trying to build any kind of rep or anything, just to share some tips and get feedback in honor of our mutual enjoyment of the series.

 

[suspendedhatch]

Toyota Starlet Glanza V '97

This car has some real limitations with it's puny 1.3l engine. When you buy the customizable transmission, it comes as a 5 speed. It's also very nose heavy, even for a FWD. According to the description, it has a twist beam rear suspension. The car's PP maxes out somewhere around 475.

Its best use is a max of around 400PP. My tune came out to 182hp and 1018kg. To achieve this I did the following mods:
a full weight reduction
ECU Tuning
Engine Tuning Stage 3
Titanium Racing Exhaust
all the stuff that doesn't raise PP, as always

Ballast Amount 200
Ballast Position 50

Ride Height Adjustment -23 -21
Spring Rate 13.0 12.2
Dampers (Extension) 9 7
Dampers (Compression) 9 8
Anti-Roll Bars 6 6
Camber Angle - 2.0 1.8
Toe Angle 0.00 -0.20

Initial Torque 30
Acceleration Sensitivity 50
Braking Sensitivity 30

Brake Balance 6 9

Final Gear Ratio seems best around 3.9, but I don't have anything to back that up.

This was good enough for Grand Valley (easy course) Online A challenge. A more challenging course might change these settings, but with this tune the car is very neutral and forgiving.

 

[rams1de]

Hi

I gave your Starlet a try and found it quite challenging to drive. The car suffered from mid corner oversteer which caused me a few problems with the kerbs due to the low ride height and stiff suspension set up. It was also a little unstable under braking and lacked lateral grip, most noticable on downhill chicane.

I found it cornered much better (and a lot easier on the tyres) with LSD reduced to 10/15/5, ride height 0/0 and softer spring and damper settings. The ballast may be too excessive, the car can be balanced quite nicely with higher spring rate on front than rear.

I'm sure much of it has to do with driving style, but I'd be interested to know if you tried a softer set up before reaching your final tune.

 

[SGETI]

Thanks.

I think someone should name a FF or 4WD car, track, and PP. I'll try my hand at tuning it and see what you think.

FYI not trying to build any kind of rep or anything, just to share some tips and get feedback in honor of our mutual enjoyment of the series.

Lets try this.

Volkswagen new beetle RSI '00 4WD. Trial Mountain 500pp
weight 3, window reduction, ecu, engine 2, sport intake manifold, cat, titanium, high turbo, 30 65 torque split, all other go fast parts. 500 pp, 1232 kg. 407 hp ?

I would like to use racing softs, since the majority of the rooms online use RS. Or try at Sport softs.

This leads to a question regarding your tunes.

What tires are you using for your general tunes?
Do you use a wheel or controller?

thanks, look forward to your results.

 

[JeremiahTB]

Thanks.

I think someone should name a FF or 4WD car, track, and PP. I'll try my hand at tuning it and see what you think.

Any French car made for the Seasonal from a month or so ago. Any of the tracks. Your choice.

 

[suspendedhatch]

rams1de: Thanks for the feedback. What track were you using the car on? I tuned it for Grand Valley... not a very challenging track for sure. I'll try your suggestions.

I went nuts on the ballast so that I could get the most hp out of 400PP. The car is so front heavy that it's a big benefit to do a full weight reduction and then redistribute the ballast.

I start soft and work up. That's how you find max grip. Ride height on the other hand... I get the car as low as possible w/out bottoming out and still being able to use the curbs. Lower height means less body roll. It also means less suspension travel which is a concern for bumps and curbs.

SGETI: I have a Bora, Golf, Polo, and a Lupo - all personal favorites. I'll tune some of these to your specs and keep an eye on my used cars for the 4WD Beetle.

I generally tune a car for a specific challenge. I like to pick an underdog because the harder you strain to beat the race, the more fine tuned the car becomes. Also, you memorize the track from repetition and ultimately that's what gets you in 1st.

You can put soft race tires on a low powered car and call it good as far as handling goes. I like to use tires that keep it challenging. You have to find the car's weaknesses. Once it's tuned up, put on the best tires allowed unless tire wear is in play.

I wont have the wheel for another couple weeks when I get it back from my nephew. I'm considering buying the Thrustmaster since I found it new for $400.

JeremiahTB: I pretty much only play during the cold months anymore, so I missed the seasonal you're talking about. I'm thinking, Peugot 206 if I can acquire one, Citreon C4 (don't currently have one either). 450PP Obviously not the rally versions but WRC is the reason why I'm partial to these cars. I have a Renault Clio..


Feel free to post counter tunes or modifications to mine!

 

[suspendedhatch]

I'm leaving town for 2 weeks but will be back with some tunes I've been working on.

 

[suspendedhatch]

Celica SS-II (ST202) '97

Currently at 197hp, 408pp, primarily weight reduction.

Ride Height Adjustment 104 104
Spring Rate 10.0 7.24
Dampers (Extension) 8 8
Dampers (Compression) 7 8
Anti-Roll Bars 5 7
Camber Angle - 3.2 1.5
Toe Angle -0.10 -0.05

Initial Torque 60
Acceleration Sensitivity 30
Braking Sensitivity 20

Brake Balance 3 4