Sympathy for the devil?

Touring Mars

ツーリング マルス
Moderator
29,378
Scotland
Glasgow
GTP_Mars
I saw a fantastic drama on the TV last night called 'The Street', by the award-winning British scriptwriter, Jimmy McGovern. It reminded me of an idea for a thread where I was going to ask what people felt about issues involving having 'sympathy for the devil', but never got round to it - so here goes.... The episode was about a young man who had recently been released from jail and who 'carries a burden', which we subsequently discover is the fact that, as a 10-year old child, he murdered a grandmother and a baby. With distinct echoes of the real-life case of James Bolger, a toddler who was murdered by two 10-year old boys in 1993 (the pair were released from jail in 1999), the drama focused on his inability to cope with his guilt, and ultimately how he finds his route to redemption/peace after a confrontation with the dead baby's mother...

In the dramatisation, 'Paul' (who lives under a new identity) and the mother of murdered baby, Jean, happen to meet by chance, so Paul runs back to his apartment and decides to have another attempt at taking his own life by embarking on a drugs overdose. However, Jean finds him shortly after their chance encounter and forces him to confront his guilt rather than killing himself. As they talk, 'Paul' (original name Michael) describes what happened and why he did what he did: he had attempted to burgled Jean's mother's house in order to acquire a 'gift' for his own mother, who needed cheering up at the time. He (accidentally?) kills the woman and subsequently finds that she was baby-sitting - but instead of incriminating himself (and to protect his own mother from the knowledge of his crime), he 'let's the baby die' and buries it in the garden. Unfortunately the baby wasn't actually dead when he buried it, and subsequently is convicted of both murders - one being the apparently horrific murder of a baby by burying it alive. But as the confrontation between Paul and Jean goes on, it quickly becomes apparent that Paul cannot cope with his own guilt - but Jean is quick to dismiss his guilt as nothing compared to the fear and pain of first having a child go missing and then discovering that it was dead. Paul admits that his suicide is not intended as a grand act but merely as a gesture of atonement, but Jean rejects this - saying that his suicide was too easy and didn't constitute atonement at all. Instead, she persuades Paul that she has rights over his life since he destroyed her family, and Paul agrees. She demands that he does not kill himself but rather 'atones' by appreciating what it must have been like for her to go through that pain and fear - and the only way he can truly understand is to have and love a child of his own.

The themes of forgiveness, redemption, reconciliation and coming to terms with a painful past were addressed in this brilliantly written (and superbly acted) drama, and were poignant and potent in equal measure. Just what is the right way to confront 'the devil' if you were ever to meet 'him', face to face? As this example is intended to highlight, the power of understanding and forgiveness is one possible route. And this extreme example also suggests that, in theory anyway, there is no limit to how much people can be prepared to forgive, or atleast try to understand. Another (even more amazing) example of this was 'Facing The Truth', a series of meetings moderated by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, where victims and perpetrators of crimes during 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland were brought face to face to discuss the past and to hear the story from the other's point of view. Although not without it's critics, this remarkable project certainly had a profound effect on some (although not all) of it's participants.

Most of all, both series beg the question of just how much benefit is there in trying to understand the motives of those who have deeply wronged you in the past?? So if you met him, would you show some courtesy, some sympathy, and some taste?
 
I think I probably would forgive (note: not forget) them for what they did, not for them, but for my own mind, for my own chance of putting the past behind me.

On the James Bolger link, that CCTV image is so bone chilling, I never knew the ins and outs of the murder were on that level though, I knew he was murdered by two 10 year olds, I had no idea that the circumstances were like that though.
 
I have a hard time giving sympathy to those who can not do the same. I find one of the most satisfying death scenes in movies is often the scene when the bad guy says stop and the good guy says "didn't she say stop when you were killing her"?!

Maybe I'm a mean guy but I just can't give sympathy to the devil.
Part of my reason is selfish hate and the other part is a calculated understanding of victimization... I mean, should you really have sympathy for those who are not victims?

So may say yes but I often fall back on NO! :sly:
 
There was a program on tonight about people who've been worngly accused of being Maxine Carr.

I think if they truly have changed, then it's up to the family to forgive them or not.
But then, how can you guage who's changed?
 
I think if they truly have changed, then it's up to the family to forgive them or not.
I agree with Danny there, its the families choice. Different people have different reactions and mentalities to situations like this.

But then, how can you guage who's changed?
Unfortunatly, judges and lawyers believe they can guage just by a convicted persons behavior. In the case of James Bolger, the term for the two boys was shortened and they were released because "the parole board ruled the boys were no longer a threat to public safety".

Which btw is a disgusting decision. If you're a 10 year old and you have it in your head to kill a poor little chap like James, you don't deserve to be released.

My own opinion, if I was in a position where I was a grieving party, I would not give any sympathy whatsoever.
 
My own opinion, if I was in a position where I was a grieving party, I would not give any sympathy whatsoever.


I guess some people are more forgiving than others. I like to think I'd be able to forgive anyone who killed a family member of mine, but then fortunately it's never happened to me. It could be a different story altogether.

But then you hear of these folks, typically religious, who find it in their hearts to forgive these people, and I think more power to them. It takes a great deal of strength to get over the event, let alone forgive and move on with it.

Forgiveness shows a willingness to move on and I believe it's a credit to those who can do it.
 
I think it takes an intense knowledge of one's character to come to any conclusion about their current state of mind compared to what they were at the time of whatever heinous crime it was they committed. To do that would take a huge amount of personal interaction to understand the other party, and I doubt many victims would ever want to spend that much time around the person who caused them so much pain.

Interestingly, I just watched Hannibal Rising. It details the beginnings of Hannibal Lecter and the events in it which turned him into a cannibalistic serial killer; his parents' death and sister's murder are largely at fault, and he never quite recovers. He has no sympathy for the men who killed (ie, slaughtered for food during a harsh winter and fed her to him) her and exacts revenge on all 4 involved, travelling the world to track them down.

From a sociological standpoint, it's nice to watch as you see him become just as (and quickly, much more so) depraved and inhuman as the men who killed her in the first place.

Yet, his aunt finds it in her heart to forgive his (very) morbid ways of dispatching the men, whereas he has no forgiveness for those who killed and ate his sister to survive.
 
I would possibly forgive him for murdering the baby, dampened by the fact that the baby is, well, a baby, as the murder came from his belief that the child was already dead. However, to attempt that for the baby-sitter would lead me to say 'to some degree', because he recognized the consequences of his actions and was greatly affected.

He doesn't seem, by habit, an incredibly dangerous man, so that also affects my answer.
 
I think it takes an intense knowledge of one's character to come to any conclusion about their current state of mind compared to what they were at the time of whatever heinous crime it was they committed. To do that would take a huge amount of personal interaction to understand the other party, and I doubt many victims would ever want to spend that much time around the person who caused them so much pain.

Interestingly, I just watched Hannibal Rising. It details the beginnings of Hannibal Lecter and the events in it which turned him into a cannibalistic serial killer; his parents' death and sister's murder are largely at fault, and he never quite recovers. He has no sympathy for the men who killed (ie, slaughtered for food during a harsh winter and fed her to him) her and exacts revenge on all 4 involved, travelling the world to track them down.

From a sociological standpoint, it's nice to watch as you see him become just as (and quickly, much more so) depraved and inhuman as the men who killed her in the first place.

Yet, his aunt finds it in her heart to forgive his (very) morbid ways of dispatching the men, whereas he has no forgiveness for those who killed and ate his sister to survive.

Hannibal Lecter is an interesting character because of the way he enacts his revenge. He doesn't just eat them, he dines on them while drinking wine. By doing this he is trying to prove to himself that he is better than those who murdered his sister.

For characters like him and Darth Vader, you can't help but feel pity and sympathy for them. Additionally, I despise movies and TV shows where the villain always loses. It doesn't work that way in the real world, examples like organized crime show that the "bad guys" can win.

I enjoy movies like "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly", in this film, all three main characters have a combination of all three characteristics. Sure, Blondie gave Tuco half of the gold when he didn't have to, but he was still a conman. Tuco exhibits some examples of honesty and bravery, and Angel Eyes has enough care and consideration to give a bottle of rum to a soldier stricken with the horrors of war.

There is no such thing as a completely evil or good person, and if there is, I've never met one. We are all human, after all.
 
Hannibal Lecter is an interesting character because of the way he enacts his revenge. He doesn't just eat them, he dines on them while drinking wine. By doing this he is trying to prove to himself that he is better than those who murdered his sister.

Ah, but that all happens after he decapitated, strangled, drowned, and stabbed the first few. ;)
 
Ah, but that all happens after he decapitated, strangled, drowned, and stabbed the first few. ;)

Yep. He never really becomes satisfied though, and as he gets older, his eating/killing habits become more "sophisticated" as a result. Can't really blame people for getting creative with things, now can we? :lol:
 
My first thought on reading the story was that, when Jean found Paul about to take his own life, was to let him get on with it, and provide advice if he looked like he was doing it wrong. Then Jean wouldn't have to worry about Paul killing someone else she's close to while trying to procure a present for his mum.

That's rather cold though, and is easy to say from my untouched, unaffected position behind the monitor. Don't have a clue what I'd actually do in real life but I'd expect I'd have a hard time dealing with my anger.

In those circumstances my sympathy is usually reserved for the victims of the crime, though, that said, I can often empathise with the perpetrator if I take the time to find out what led them to their action.
 
Most of all, both series beg the question of just how much benefit is there in trying to understand the motives of those who have deeply wronged you in the past?? So if you met him, would you show some courtesy, some sympathy, and some taste?

Almost certainly not. I'm not the forgiving type. I'm very very big on personal responsibility and accountability.
 
I guess some people are more forgiving than others. I like to think I'd be able to forgive anyone who killed a family member of mine, but then fortunately it's never happened to me. It could be a different story altogether.


How strange that I should be tested so soon after this.

Following the extremely recent death of a friend, his family have apparently forgiven the killers, wishing only time to grieve.

I however, have not forgiven them.

I guess it's just something you don't know the answer to until it happens to you.
 
I don't think I could forgive someone if they killed a close firend of member of the family in cold blood. Even some accidents if it's something that is thier fault and could have been avoided such as a crash if they were drink driving or racing, I couldn't forgive them. Honestly I think I'd want them dead. If it was an accident and they were to blame but it was a general human error accident and not caused by them being stupid I think I'd be more willing to fogive
 
Back