Teachers with guns ?

[Nicksfix]

This subject is brewing everywhere. What are your opinions about a teacher carrying a gun into school for protection of the children ? I fully realize that there is a plethora of opinions on both sides of the coin. Both sides I'm sure will have plausible points. Both sides will have not so plausible points.

Upon talking with my kid (recent high school grad.) a little bit this morning, his opinion was an overwhelming "hell yes, kids in school need some sort of protection from these 🤬 a-holes". Also said was, "Police are minutes / miles away, a teacher is already there". "Time is everything in a case like this". "A certified concealed carry teacher could possibly dis-arm the situation at hand leading to less tragedy". "Timing is everything, the less time the shooter has to shoot up anything, everything, everybody is important".

I have points for and against this. However, I tend to lean on the idea that is not a bad idea for qualified teachers to be able to carry a concealed weapon. Reason being, if a "would be" shooter knows that teachers / staff are packing, I honestly believe that he / she "may" think twice about committing such an act. Granted, there are those who suffer from mental illnesses, etc. who don't give a concern for their safety and or life, or those whom they may be targeting. So, there is the flip side to this, the perps mental being. He simply does not care ... sad.

It would be interesting to have students here at GTP express their thoughts on this. It will also be interesting to see what parents here on GTP have to feel about this.

If at all possible within your post, could you please indentify whether you are a student or a parent, or maybe just a concerned citizen.

Thanks

 

[CodeRedR51]

Teachers with guns? No.

More security in schools? Yes.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

No. If I was a student at an elementary school, and I found out that teachers carried guns, I'd be scared to death. Not only by the teachers themselves, but by the recognition by the teachers of a serious threat. Also, wouldn't it be cheaper to improve mental health care instead of buying thousands of guns for teachers?

One more point: Columbine had armed guards. Fat lot of good it did.

 

[Exorcet]

Makes sense, but I don't think it's necessary.

Instead focus on preventing people from committing these crimes in the first place, and if that fails, keep them out of the building.

If we do go with guns in school, limit access points to the buildings and place armed security at those access points. You basically get the same level of protection as a school full of armed teachers with less people/material.

No. If I was a student at an elementary school, and I found out that teachers carried guns, I'd be scared to death.

Kids don't seem to run screaming from cops or soldiers.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The thing that would scare me is the idea that the teachers are armed because someone is going to try and kill me. That's not reassuring.

 

[Exorcet]

The thing that would scare me is the idea that the teachers are armed because someone is going to try and kill me. That's not reassuring.

That's the same reason cops and soldiers have guns, it's why we have jails, and it's why my school had locked doors that were always monitored. These are all things I'm sure kids deal with already.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

Surely the biggest concern here is that the students could get then gun rather than the fact they might be scared by it ?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

^That would be a concern for older students, yes. I'm talking about younger students.

@Excorcet: I realise that, but as a young student it wouldn't reassure me. The fact that the teachers carry guns not only indicates a threat, but indicates that the police are too slow or incompetent to stop violence.

 

[lbsf1]

I think that this is a bad idea, I think it promotes the wrong idea in schools, the fact that teachers need to have guns is treating a symptom rather than the problem. Should a teacher need to be armed? that answer is no. So why in supposedly the worlds best democracy it this being even considered?

 

[Ross]

No, if my teachers had guns, I would be **** scared. But as R1600Turbo says, there needs to be more security in schools. Even here in the UK (OK, not as many people have guns) but my school has no security whatsoever. Anyone can just walk in or out as they please because it's a community school.

 

[Danoff]

So you're either a student or a parent or you don't get to have an opinion?

I voted support, but obviously the details are important. Anyone carrying a gun should have significant training and routine practice with that gun. I don't think the idea requires that 100% of teachers in a given school carry guns, and I don't think that the idea requires that the gun be carried on them or in display regularly.

When you envision this concept in the simplest way, you imagine all teachers, no matter how inappropriate for that teacher to have a gun, with a holster while they explain long division at the chalkboard.

It would be a massive improvement if a few certified individuals at a school had access to a safe where a gun was stored in the school.

 

[mattythedog]

I'm undecided about this. Sure, in some situations it would be good, but having guns around is just asking for trouble IMO. Besides, why does a teacher have any more right to carry a gun than a pupil? Ok, maybe not young ones, but if they're 16-18 and trained correctly, I don't see a difference.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Also, having armed teachers at schools won't necessarily stop these shootings. The shooters will just choose different places to do them, like, say, cinemas. As ibsf1 said, it's treating a symptom, not the cause of the problem.

 

[Exorcet]

I realise that, but as a young student it wouldn't reassure me. The fact that the teachers carry guns not only indicates a threat, but indicates that the police are too slow or incompetent to stop violence.

I'm not sure if younger kids would make those connections, unless they knew about the recent shooting or similar shootings, in which case they're probably be worried whether or not teachers were armed.

So you're either a student or a parent or you don't get to have an opinion?

To be fair, that's addressed in the post (very briefly) but yeah, the poll is missing a few choices.

It would be a massive improvement if a few certified individuals at a school had access to a safe where a gun was stored in the school.

Yes, basically the same idea that I brought up before. Limit access points to the school and keep dedicated security personnel at those access points.

Going further, they should probably always been in pairs, and anyone entering the building can only see one pair upon entering. The other pair(s) will be able to watch any entering along with the first pair via camera.

 

[Nicksfix]

So you're either a student or a parent or you don't get to have an opinion?

To be fair, that's addressed in the post (very briefly) but yeah, the poll is missing a few choices.

I will make amendments to the poll. Sorry about that. Yes, I touched on it in the OP but failed to add it to the poll, my bad.

 

[Omnis]

If a teacher or student normally carries, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to concealed carry on school grounds. Of course, there would be consequences for flashing your piece. However, CCW permit holders are a responsible group by necessity.

 

[rap129]

Im an 8th grade student and would not feel comfortable with any of my teachers having guns. It just seems really weird to me and would be awkward knowing my teacher had a gun. Maybe somebody in the front office having a gun incase of a situation where its needed, but in the classrooms no.

 

[lbsf1]

No, if my teachers had guns, I would be **** scared. But as R1600Turbo says, there needs to be more security in schools. Even here in the UK (OK, not as many people have guns) but my school has no security whatsoever. Anyone can just walk in or out as they please because it's a community school.

My secondary school and Sixth form both make us carry visible ID cards on lanyards so that they can identify us quickly. Our sixth form also has a team of people who just man the gates. These are both state schools also so its not like they are some specialist private school. You have to do things like that to be able to get an outstanding in the ofsted inspections to show you take "pupil safety" seriously.

Just thought I would point that out to show that there are reasonable measures in place already at some schools.

 

[Ross]

My secondary school and Sixth form both make us carry visible ID cards on lanyards so that they can identify us quickly. Our sixth form also has a team of people who just man the gates. These are both state schools also so its not like they are some specialist private school. You have to do things like that to be able to get an outstanding in the ofsted inspections to show you take "pupil safety" seriously.

Just thought I would point that out to show that there are reasonable measures in place already at some schools.

Seems pretty secure. Anyone can identify us by our uniform but as we are a community school, anyone can walk in without signing in at reception. that's how part of the pipework got stolen and flooded an entire building last year.

 

[Joel]

The way I see it, despite what the anti-gun propaganda will tell you, CCW holders are among the most law abiding and least violent members of society. I remember reading that CCW holders are statistically 5 times less likely to commit a violent crime, and 14 times less likely to commit a non-violent crime. CCW holders know the law well, and are very very responsible with their guns, they won't be leaving them out on their desks. I don't see it as a problem if a few teachers in a school who are certified CCW holders have their guns with them.

 

[Hayden]

As a person who finished school in Australia a couple of months ago, this is the very first I've heard of the idea. So, If my understanding is correct, the proposal is to give weapons to teachers in hope that it would either deter 'would be massacre commiters', or lessen the impact they cause through deadly force early on in said suspect's escapade.

Now it's worth mentioning that on this side of the world (or at least the slice I inhabit), gun laws are far more strict than they are over there. My brother recently acquired his after about 6 months of checks, tests and paperwork. This license is the only one that most Australians, who aren't primary producers (farmers) or of a security/military devision can get their hands on. From my understanding, It basically allows them to buy and use a selection of manual rifles and shotguns on their own property while obeying strict laws. A gun can not be carried on one's person outside their property and must stay in a gun safe to travel by car.

These laws came about after a lot of gun crime happened in the 80's & 90's (including a particularly tragic massacre) and saw people forced to hand over any semi automatic weapons or face fine/jail time once they came into effect.

So, as you can imagine gun crime over here is now pretty low. I can't talk for city facilities, but the country high school i just finished at certainly had no metal detectors, let alone security guards... and i'm pretty sure the teachers weren't packing. In fact security there was (with the exception of motion sensors for night time and some very recently installed cameras for the computer rooms) basically inexistent.

What i'm trying to say is that adding guns to school is certainly not fixing the problem but putting a filthy and trouble ridden band aid on the symptom. No matter the training, how selective the issuing of weapons, or how strictly it's implemented- there is a definite and real chance that this could backfire (excuse the pun) in a very big way. Could you imagine the response if a kid got his hands on one of these guns and hurt someone, or worse still a teacher had a particular bad day and... I think you know where i'm going with this.

Like I said earlier, I know only what you guys have said on this particular idea and I'm definitely on the outside looking in; but the thought of going to school knowing that my government doesn't trust it's police enough to protect me in it's own building, and that some nutcase could get a hold of that gun would nearly keep me away from school altogether.

There is other ways to help reduce this issue, (mental health support and looking at the modern society would be a great start) but ultimately there will come a time when 'the right to bear arms' will be abolished. Why not take small steps now to save some needless bloodshed and help bring your society back to a point where the thought of someone shooting up a school is as perplexing as it is to someone like me.

Ps. One last thought is would a teacher really have it in them to take the life of a person they may have known for 15 years+? It's common for soldiers to freeze up in battle, so what gives someone who took on a job wanting to improve kids lives any more of a hope?

Edit: Noob- You raise a good point about using certified gun handling teachers only. However, I still think no variation of this idea is a true solution in any meaningful way.

 

[Nicksfix]

The thing that would scare me is the idea that the teachers are armed because someone is going to try and kill me. That's not reassuring.

What is more reassuring, a qualified / trained teacher carrying, trying to protect the lives of children or a lunatic having his way with a couple of 9's and an AR-15 until the police show up ?

So you're either a student or a parent or you don't get to have an opinion?

I voted support, but obviously the details are important. Anyone carrying a gun should have significant training and routine practice with that gun. I don't think the idea requires that 100% of teachers in a given school carry guns, and I don't think that the idea requires that the gun be carried on them or in display regularly.

When you envision this concept in the simplest way, you imagine all teachers, no matter how inappropriate for that teacher to have a gun, with a holster while they explain long division at the chalkboard.

It would be a massive improvement if a few certified individuals at a school had access to a safe where a gun was stored in the school.

The poll has been edited, thanks for pointing that out. 👍 Agreed with the rest of your post as well. Ok, lets say that we do not arm the teacher, a gun in the principals office - in a safe is a good start. Nothing wrong with that.

As ibsf1 said, it's treating a symptom, not the cause of the problem.

True. Until we can come up with a viable solution to treat those who need help, how many more innocent children will we have to lose in the meantime ?

Maybe somebody in the front office having a gun in case of a situation where its needed, but in the classrooms no.

As Danoff said, in the Principals office, in a locked safe. It's a start.

Something has to be done to protect our children in a place where they are "supposedly" safe. Added school security is not a bad idea. I'm all for it. It will cost money, but it is worth it ? Do you or do you not place a $$$ value on your childs head ? Metal detectors ? Pre-entry pat downs, backpack inspections before entering the school ? Doors locked from 8 am until 3 pm,no student in or out ? Guests have to check in and go through a pat down as well ? However, until such measures are taken, what about the Rotton Johnny kid who sneaks a gun into the school ? Who will stop him ?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Like I said earlier, I know only what you guys have said on this particular idea and I'm definitely on the outside looking in; but the thought of going to school knowing that my government doesn't trust it's police enough to protect me in it's own building, and that some nutcase could get a hold of that gun would nearly keep me away from school altogether.

There is other ways to help reduce this issue, (mental health support and looking at the modern society would be a great start) but ultimately there will come a time when 'the right to bear arms' will be abolished. Why not take small steps now to save some needless bloodshed and help bring your society back to a point where the thought of someone shooting up a school is as perplexing as it is to someone like me.

I agree completely with this. Look at Australia: stricter gun control laws, less gun crime.

What is more reassuring, a qualified / trained teacher carrying, trying to protect the lives of children or a lunatic having his way with a couple of 9's and an AR-15 until the police show up ?

True. Until we can come up with a viable solution to treat those who need help, how many more innocent children will we have to lose in the meantime ?

There is a viable solution: stricter gun control laws and better mental health care. I'd be more reassured if the lunatic never existed or never got a gun in the first place, so that nobody would have to be killed. No civilian needs a high capacity magazine or an assault weapon. Sure, it's fun to go and shoot up some targets, but other people might use them to shoot up people.

 

[arora]

As a student graduating in the 80's, my high school had one full time guy with a side arm, he was a plain clothes narc, his partner was there some of the time and also armed. There was one other guy employed by the school, maybe he was a guidance counselor or something. No big Deal.

As a parent I don't really care either way. There was a murder at my children's elementary school, they where ages 5 and 9 at the time. After that for a few months there would be 2 patrol cars each morning and afternoon at the school, usually just sitting in their cars, sometimes walking the grounds. Only there for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. Not sure what to make of that, again, whatever.

Here is what we should do, make every non felon, non mentally ill, over 21 citizen carry a loaded fire arm for one week. Lets see how that goes.

Seriously though? There should be no gun free zones, that is just silly. If you can legally carry concealed or not, then you should be able to legally carry anywhere. Otherwise it's not really legal now is it.

 

[Joel]

I agree completely with this. Look at Australia: stricter gun control laws, less gun crime.

Look at Mexico: stricter gun control, far more gun crime. Look at Switzerland, loose gun control, less gun crimes. Correlation does not imply causation.

There is a viable solution: stricter gun control laws and better mental health care. I'd be more reassured if the lunatic never existed or never got a gun in the first place, so that nobody would have to be killed. No civilian needs a high capacity magazine or an assault weapon. Sure, it's fun to go and shoot up some targets, but other people might use them to shoot up people.

Your 2nd amendment begs to differ. The issue is that all the criminals and would be gun criminals already have AR's with high cap mags. Taking them away from law abiding citizens seriously reduces their ability to defend themselves. If high cap mags are illegal, a criminal will still get one illegally (especially because there's hundreds of millions already in circulation), and they'll know that nobody will be able to stop them. How can you defend yourself against someone who breaks into your house with 2 30 round mags when yours are capped at 5?

 

[Northstar]

Look at Australia: stricter gun control laws, less gun crime.

Not necessarily. Australia and the UK work because it's harder to get guns into the country in the first place as they are both islands so you have greater control of everything that comes in the country.

Now look at the US, we have two huge land borders with Canada and Mexico(which has had huge problems with cartels lately). Neither of those are constantly patrolled as it's impossible which means you can easily get black market weapons into the country(okay maybe not easily but much easier than Australia or the UK).

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Good point, but I still think that we could find most of the guns if we wanted to. Also, it would help if we took a more active role in reducing the drug trafficking that goes on around the border with Mexico.

 

[DK]

My question is, what sort of guns should the teachers have, if guns were to be allowed in schools? Giving them semi-automatic rifles is going to scare the bejeesus out of students, while giving them handguns might not be a good idea when they're faced with a maniac with body armour and any decently powerful gun.

 

[Exorcet]

No civilian needs a high capacity magazine or an assault weapon. Sure, it's fun to go and shoot up some targets, but other people might use them to shoot up people.

That can pretty much be said about anything.

 

[Ranman20]

Nobody's perfect, there are teachers that murder. How can we trust them, yes there are some good teachers. But they have control in the clsss room when(if) they have the gun.

There are teachers who were rapist, molesters, killers, seductrist, all types of things. They can hide their personalities anytime they want. Its bias, I have a lot of views toward this situation.

I'm a HS student