The '13 driver transfer discussion/speculation thread op updated 16/10

[F1 fan]

No, you should just start a new one for 2012. I don't see the point of renaming this one and then having to go to post 1900 for any relevant info.

As suggested by daan, here is the new thread for discussions and speculation about the driver market. The old thread can be found here.

As of 16/9

Confirmed
Alonso (Ferrari), di Resta (Force India), Hulkenberg (Force India), de la Rosa (HRT), Raikkonen (Lotus), Glock (Marussia), Rosberg (Mercedes), Vettel (Red Bull), Webber (Red Bull), Maldonado (Williams).

Undecided
Hamilton (McLaren and Mercedes).

Unknown
Everyone else.

Confirmed on 28/9
Lewis Hamilton will move to Mercedes GP. Hamilton has reportedly signed a "three year deal".
Sergio Perez will take his place at McLaren. Sergio has signed a "multi year deal"

Confirmed on 04/10
Michael Schumacher has announced his retirement from F1 at the end of the season.

Confirmed on 16/10
Ferrari have extended Felipe Massa's contract until the end of the 2013 season.

 

[peter_vod69]

Too early for my "Senna to Ferrari" rumour?

 

[F1 fan]

Too early for my "Senna to Ferrari" rumour?

If there is proper reason for the speculation, then no. But let's try to keep it as factual as possible. We won't believe that you overheard Chris Goodwin's phone conversation one time when you were in a public toilet.

 

[peter_vod69]

If there is proper reason for the speculation, then no. But let's try to keep it as factual as possible. We won't believe that you overheard Chris Goodwin's phone conversation one time when you were in a public toilet.

Not even if I was standing on the lid and craning my neck toward the top of the stall?

Seriously though, the big question has to be who will replace Massa at Ferrari (sad as I think it is)?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Is this the "prisonermonkeys vs Bruno Senna" thread now?

More seriously, I think it is still too early to know what is going to happen next year. But yes, I also agree that Williams wants Bottas in 2013 and forcing Senna to have one less practise session in every GP shows what their intentions are.

We will probably see a major reshuffle of seats next year. But the "market" will be on hold until it becomes clear what will happen at Ferrari.

 

[ghskilla]

I think Mercedes will have the same lineup, Red Bull also the same (maybe not Webber), McLaren might stay the same, Felipe is most-likely going to be gone from Ferrari, Alonso stays, and the rest might reshuffle around. That's my (not-so-accurate) guess of changes.

 

[jcm]

Maybe the only reason Bruno is getting less practice sessions is because Williams knows he can preform fine without the practice sessions, or maybe because part of Maldonado's sponsered contract says that he has to drive every session?

Though him replacing Massa and beating Alonso could be cool (though very unlikely)

 

[Liquid]

2013 will see the launch of Scuderia Taki Inoue, with drives for Riccardo Rosset and Yuji Ide.

Too early to speculate on anything concrete, although I can see Webber leaving Red Bull if he has a bad year.

 

[F1 fan]

Maybe the only reason Bruno is getting less practice sessions is because Williams knows he can preform fine without the practice sessions,

... ... ... ...

or maybe because part of Maldonado's sponsered contract says that he has to drive every session?

Possibly, although Senna does bring a fairly substantial sponsorship package to the team.

although I can see Webber leaving Red Bull if he has a bad year.

He'd have to have a pretty bad season. As it is, he's doing well currently and Dietrich Mateschitz wants him to stay.

 

[jcm]

... ... ... ...

Possibly, although Senna does bring a fairly substantial sponsorship package to the team.

He'd have to have a pretty bad season. As it is, he's doing well currently and Dietrich Mateschitz wants him to stay.

Not sure that an implied facepalm was needed, as Bruno's done well so far.

I don't buy the Williams bringing him in to give him a chance to prove himself for next year thing, though I think that it's sort of that situation. Williams brought him in because his talent/sponsership money made him the best driver available for this season. He'll probably move on to either another team or another form of racing for next year, depending on how he does this year. So in way, this season sort of is an opportunity for him to prove himself, though that had nothing to do with why Williams brought him in.

 

[Peter.]

Williams were probably unsure as to if Senna would be able to perform well this year, which is why they went ahead and only gave him a 1 year sponsorship deal. Now that he is performing, very well actually, they might think twice.

If he keeps up this form, he's certainly in line for a seat elsewhere come next year, if Williams do drop him.

 

[Furinkazen]

Perez to replace Massa at Ferrari? Hamilton in place of Webber at Red Bull?

 

[gorsad]

I don't think Hammy will be moving from Mclaren any time soon. As long as they give him a good car he'll be happy.

 

[F1 fan]

Not sure that an implied facepalm was needed, as Bruno's done well so far.

It was necessary. Implying that Williams know Senna "doesn't need" all practice sessions is silly. Losing as many practice sessions in a season will be a great disadvantage to Senna. Or anyone for that matter. And that includes the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Vettel etc. Put simply, it's less track time to familiarize himself with the tracks. Sure, there will still be some base setup work going on, but for all we know, Senna and Bottas might prefer to go in completely different directions setup wise, so Bottas' work in FP1 may be of little help to Senna.

The only reason Senna isn't complaining about it is because he knows that this is his best opportunity. This is the season for results. If they don't come, he'll either move down the grid next season, or off it altogether. He's doing reasonably well so far, but he has to make a good impression for next year. If Maldonado continues to bring the money, Williams will keep him, leaving Senna looking for yet another drive next year. This is really a crucial year for him.

 

[jcm]

It was necessary. Implying that Williams know Senna "doesn't need" all practice sessions is silly. Losing as many practice sessions in a season will be a great disadvantage to Senna. Or anyone for that matter. And that includes the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Vettel etc. Put simply, it's less track time to familiarize himself with the tracks. Sure, there will still be some base setup work going on, but for all we know, Senna and Bottas might prefer to go in completely different directions setup wise, so Bottas' work in FP1 may be of little help to Senna.

The only reason Senna isn't complaining about it is because he knows that this is his best opportunity. This is the season for results. If they don't come, he'll either move down the grid next season, or off it altogether. He's doing reasonably well so far, but he has to make a good impression for next year. If Maldonado continues to bring the money, Williams will keep him, leaving Senna looking for yet another drive next year. This is really a crucial year for him.

Well, he's scored 7 times more points then Shoemaker so far, so he's clearly doesn't 'need' the practice session. Obviously it slows him down when he misses a practice session, but I don't think it's 'needed'. He's doing a good job so far, and Williams sees more benefit of giving Bottas practice is greater then the laptime which is added to Senna. Perhaps I should have been more clear with my opinion, I just thought that it was obvious that Senna will underpreform a little when he misses a practice session.

I hope it makes more sense this time.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Here's what I think a reasonably-feasible grid would look like:

Red Bull - Sebastian Vettel and Jean-Eric Vergne
Vettel remains at Red Bull, confident that Adrian Newey can continue to deliver high-quality cars. Webber, however, decides to retire on a high note, and leaves the team. Although Vergne proves to be a weak qualifier, he is the better racer of the Toro Rosso pair, and the team feel that with Vettel in the first seat, they can afford to take a little time to shape Vergne into a better racer.

McLaren - Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton
Despite constant rumours that Hamilton will move to Red Bull as soon as it becomes apparent that Webber will leave, both he and Button stay at McLaren, who are banking on consistency in their driver line-up giving them an edge for 2013.

Ferrari - Fernando Alonso and Sergio Perez
In a move that surprises no-one, Felipe Massa is shown the door at Ferrari. Despite almost every single driver (except Narain Karthikeyan) being mentioned as a potential replacement, Sergio Perez is the team's first, last and obvious choice for the second seat.

Mercedes - Nico Rosberg and Paul di Resta
Michael Schumacher decides to re-retire at the end of the season following protracted debate over the Pirelli tyres. Mercedes look to Force India for his replacement, and settle on di Resta as he is consistently a stronger performer than Hulkenberg.

Lotus - Kimi Raikkonen and Romain Grosjean
Perhaps the hardest team to call, simply because so much hinges on the outcome of the Group Lotus sale. China Youngman has openly displayed interest in the company, and if they buy it, they might be interested in Formula 1, in which case they might apply pressure for a Chinese driver. Or they might sever all ties to the team and request that they use a new name. Or Gerard Lopez and Genii Capital could buy the company. it all depends on who comes out as the new owner of Lotus Cars.

Force India - Nico Hulkenberg and Robert Wickens
Hulkenberg fails to impress in the middle of a tightly-fought midfield, and only saves his seat when di Resta is called up to Mercedes. The void is filled by the highly-impressive Robert Wickens, who despite a poor DTM season, still shows plenty of promise.

Sauber - Vitaly Petrov an Esteban Gutierrez
With Perez off to Ferrari, Gutierrez is his natural successor. Petrov's placement is a little harder to define: the team has accepted money from Chelsea FC, owned by Russian expatriate Roman Abramovich. Foreshadowing a potential buy-in (that would secure the future of the team for the next decade), Abramovich uses his influence (and mandate from Vladimir Putin) to place Petrov at the team. It is not difficult to justify cutting Kobayashi loose after a string of disappointing finishes; it has, to date, been a year since he scored points in three races in a row in a single season.

Toro Rosso - Daniel Ricciardo and Kevin Korjus
Both Vergne and Ricciardo underperform in 2012, creating an interesting situation at Red Bull. Despite rumours that both Hamilton and Raikkonen will join them (when asked if he would move, Raikkonen says "no", which his fans interpret as "yes"), they take Vergne as they do not want someone entering the team and upsetting the order. Ricciardo's team-mate is Formula Renault 3.5 stalwart Kevin Korjus.

Williams - Valterri Bottas and Kamui Kobayashi
The FW34's performance brings a renewed confidence to Williams. Bottas replaces Senna mid-season, and a string of good results means the team is no longer dependent on pay drivers. Sir Frank decides to take a chance, cutting Maldonado loose in favour of a more-traditional Williams driver - Kamui Kobayashi. His signing is heralded as a perfect match of team and driver.

Caterham - Hekki Kovalainen and Alexander Rossi
With Petrov moving to greener (more like white-er and grey-er) pastures, the team happily take Alexander Rossi on. Kovalainen stays with the team, edging closer to Q2 with each race.

??? - Dani Clos and Pastor Maldonado
Kathikeyan and de la Rosa are dropped in favouf of Clos and Maldonado. Clos brings the promised Spanish flavour, while Maldonado and PDVSA fund the team.

Marussia - Timo Glock and Rio Haryanto
Marussia secure 10th place in the World Constructors' Championship through sheer reliability. Glock flirts with the idea of retirement, but the team's long-term plans combined with a steady stream of Russian petrodollars and the placing in the WCC convince him that he made the right choice when he joined in 2010. Charles Pic is dropped in favour of Haryanto, who impresses in a much-improved Carlin in GP2, bringing Indonesian money to the team.

 

[gorsad]

Agree with most of that, but I think Senna could also be staying at Williams or moving teams. Don't think he'll be dropped by the end of the season.

 

[astrosdude91]

So I heard a rumor that Narain Karthikeyan will replace Felipe Massa at Ferrari in 2013.

There. That's everyone.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think Senna could also be staying at Williams or moving teams.

He won't stay with Williams. It's pretty obvious that Bottas will race in 2013, and Maldonado's money pretty much guarantees that he is safe (I put Kobayashi in his seat, because I think that despite his disappointing performances, Kamui Kobayashi encaptures the spirit of a Williams driver).

As for Senna, I haven't seen anything that would make me want to take him on if I were a team principal. Like I said in the other thread, he has 14 points when he could (and should) have 28. Nor can I see any open seat that he would easily fit into.

 

[peter_vod69]

So did Bruno Senna actually steal your mother away from your father or something PM? Come on, I think we all want to know where this hatred comes from.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't hate him. I just think he's over-rated and given far too much leniency. If anyone else had done what Senna has done, he would have been sacked and no-one would have given it a second thought. I cannot think of any other driver who has a) beaten a lowly-rated team-mate once in eight races and then b) gets heralded as one of the great new talents of the sport. To hear some of Senna's fans tell it, he was partnered with Fernando Alonso last year, not Vitaly Petrov. He doesn't deserve to be in Formula 1, and this year is proof of it - after four races, he only has half the points that he should have. Half the points that he would have if it weren't for his constant mistakes. Even if they're not his fault, am I the only one who has noticed that he seems to be involved in five times as many on-track incidents as any other driver?

 

[peter_vod69]

I don't hate him. I just think he's over-rated and given far too much leniency. If anyone else had done what Senna has done, he would have been sacked and no-one would have given it a second thought. I cannot think of any other driver who has a) beaten a lowly-rated team-mate once in eight races and then b) gets heralded as one of the great new talents of the sport. To hear some of Senna's fans tell it, he was partnered with Fernando Alonso last year, not Vitaly Petrov. He doesn't deserve to be in Formula 1, and this year is proof of it - after four races, he only has half the points that he should have. Half the points that he would have if it weren't for his constant mistakes. Even if they're not his fault, am I the only one who has noticed that he seems to be involved in five times as many on-track incidents as any other driver?

I still think you have some sort of weird personal bias. He has done reasonably well in the machinery and circumstances he has been handed thus far. Sure, he's made one or two mistakes, but would you rather a racing driver who makes the odd mistake and is fast, or one who is consistent and slow? He was thrown in the deep end with Petrov last year and acquitted himself reasonably given the situation, and at Williams he has consistently outshone his teammate. Incidentally, given the nature of F1 this year, is it any real surprise when people aren't incident free? Yet he still manages to score points...

In closing, I'll respond with a question. If he beats Maldonado in this year's championship, will you then acknowledge that perhaps he is worthy of his seat in F1?

 

[jcm]

Other then the anti-senna-because-he's-overrated,-so-I-better-underate-him bias, that's a very good and well thought out grid. 👍

 

[Centura]

Here we go, again...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Other then the anti-senna-because-he's-overrated,-so-I-better-underate-him bias, that's a very good and well thought out grid. 👍

Like I explained, not placing Senna has nothing to do with any dislike of him, and everything to do with being unable to find a seat that he would easily fit into.

 

[Peter.]

I don't hate him. I just think he's over-rated and given far too much leniency. If anyone else had done what Senna has done, he would have been sacked and no-one would have given it a second thought. I cannot think of any other driver who has a) beaten a lowly-rated team-mate once in eight races and then b) gets heralded as one of the great new talents of the sport. To hear some of Senna's fans tell it, he was partnered with Fernando Alonso last year, not Vitaly Petrov. He doesn't deserve to be in Formula 1, and this year is proof of it - after four races, he only has half the points that he should have. Half the points that he would have if it weren't for his constant mistakes. Even if they're not his fault, am I the only one who has noticed that he seems to be involved in five times as many on-track incidents as any other driver?

14 points are well earned and well deserved points nonetheless. And exactly what mistakes are you talking about? If anything so far, Senna's been consistent in the races, which is unlike last year.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

14 points are well earned and well deserved points nonetheless.

See, this is the apologist attitude from fans that I can't stand. Yes, Senna has fourteen points. And yes, they're both well-deserved and hard-earned. But they don't excuse the way Senna should have twice as many points to his name. If Lewis Hamilton had twenty-five points instead of the forty-nine he has now, would people be saying "Good job, Lewis, you really earned those points"? No, they'd be calling for somebody's head! So why is Bruno Senna any different?

Right now, there are five highly-competitive teams in Formula 1: McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari and Lotus. However, it should be six - the Williams has the potential to at least give Lotus a run for their money. But they're being let down by two underwhelming drivers.

And exactly what mistakes are you talking about?

He got turned around on the first lap in Australia. Then he tangled with Felipe Massa later in the race. He was involved in another first-lap incident in Malaysia, but the team made up for it by giving him the wet tyres, effectively undoing his mistake for him. And at the end of Q2 in Bahrain, he was on a flying lap that - based on his sector times - could have seen him take sixth from Ricciardo, but he made a mistake late in the lap and ended up fourteenth.

 

[Peter.]

See, this is the apologist attitude from fans that I can't stand. Yes, Senna has fourteen points. And yes, they're both well-deserved and hard-earned. But they don't excuse the way Senna should have twice as many points to his name. If Lewis Hamilton had twenty-five points instead of the forty-nine he has now, would people be saying "Good job, Lewis, you really earned those points"? No, they'd be calling for somebody's head! So why is Bruno Senna any different?

Right now, there are five highly-competitive teams in Formula 1: McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari and Lotus. However, it should be six - the Williams has the potential to at least give Lotus a run for their money. But they're being let down by two underwhelming drivers.

See this? You're overrating the Williams car just to make their drivers look bad. Senna and Maldoando have speed, if anything, and I'm sure that they are getting the best out of that car right now. The Williams is not even close to the Lotus. Neither in qualifying, nor in the race. The Williams is somewhere between the Sauber and the Force India on speed.

He got turned around on the first lap in Australia. Then he tangled with Felipe Massa later in the race. He was involved in another first-lap incident in Malaysia, but the team made up for it by giving him the wet tyres, effectively undoing his mistake for him. And at the end of Q2 in Bahrain, he was on a flying lap that - based on his sector times - could have seen him take sixth from Ricciardo, but he made a mistake late in the lap and ended up fourteenth.

What? Are you serious? He was turned around by Ricciardo in Australia, of no fault of his own. Massa had a puncture, which caused him to turn into Senna. That incident was not his fault either. I do not know what happened in Malaysia, as it was a chaotic start, but he made a brilliant recovery, and was the only person for most of the time who could come close to Perez' laptimes. I'll give you Bahrain, but that's not really much of a big deal.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

See this? You're overrating the Williams car just to make their drivers look bad.

Right, because a car that is capable of finishing sixth - as Maldondo would have in Australia - is "over-rated" when compared to five other teams. When you take into account the five most-competitive teams this year, they have the potential to fill out the top ten places. Therefore, since the Williams is capable of finishing sixth, it's clearly able to fight with some of those top five teams.

What? Are you serious? He was turned around by Ricciardo in Australia, of no fault of his own. Massa had a puncture, which caused him to turn into Senna. That incident was not his fault either.

Just listen to yourself. Have you noticed how often Senna is the innocent bystander in these incidents? Why does he get involved in these episodes more than all of the other drivers combined?

but he made a brilliant recovery,

No, he didn't. When he lost his front wing on the first lap, the team decided to put him on wets. He profited when everyone else made a mad dash to the pits two laps later. There was no "brilliant recovery" - the team figured they would cut their losses and managed to undo the damage Senna had caused. If he'd kept his nose clean and then told the team to give him the wet tyres straight away, then it would have been impressive, because he probably would have been able to compete with Perez and Alonso.

I'll give you Bahrain, but that's not really much of a big deal.

Uh, yes it's a big deal, because Senna could have started up the front instead of in the middle.

 

[Peter.]

Right, because a car that is capable of finishing sixth - as Maldondo would have in Australia - is "over-rated" when compared to five other teams. When you take into account the five most-competitive teams this year, they have the potential to fill out the top ten places. Therefore, since the Williams is capable of finishing sixth, it's clearly able to fight with some of those top five teams.

Maldonado only manged to get so high, because both Ferraris were awful in qualifying, as was Raikkonen, and Schumacher retired ahead of him. He did not get to 6th place on merit.

Just listen to yourself. Have you noticed how often Senna is the innocent bystander in these incidents? Why does he get involved in these episodes more than all of the other drivers combined?

Bad luck. It was not his fault in Australia why he had a miserable race. I don't even know exactly how he lost his wing in Malaysia, but he's not the first driver to make a mistake in wet conditions, now is he?

No, he didn't. When he lost his front wing on the first lap, the team decided to put him on wets. He profited when everyone else made a mad dash to the pits two laps later. There was no "brilliant recovery" - the team figured they would cut their losses and managed to undo the damage Senna had caused. If he'd kept his nose clean and then told the team to give him the wet tyres straight away, then it would have been impressive, because he probably would have been able to compete with Perez and Alonso.

Uhh, even so, he was at the back on the restart, and made his way up to finish 6th. If that's not a good drive, then I don't know what is. How are you even so sure that if he didn't lose his front wing ,he would have been up front? The loss of his front wing is probably what helped him in that he came in and the team made the right call for the Wets.