The definitive GT5 transmission tuning guide.

[AssassinTuner]

It only took .16 to put him where I call the sweet spot. From his 3.44 to my 3.602. Like I said, video tape it and post up. I want to see this bogging you are talking about.

I also want to see speed and elapsed time it takes to reach speed with both types of launches. The "Bog" launch as you call it and the "red tire" launch as I call it.

I'd stop asking me to prove everything in videos, you know how that's been going but as I already said I would I'll make one when I get home... I'll make a nice vid showing just how crappy First gear is, in various circumstances lol... I wonder how it does with an auto, lol...

It doesn't matter how long it takes him to get in the sweet spot when The other car has leapt out in front and started the pull at a higher rate pulling away as they go. You seem to have a difficult time understanding this. It's the same as your delusion that because I stop pulling on you in 6th, that your going to catch up (hilarious) once the other guy is out front you will have to substantially out accelerate them to catch up or pass the speed they are at when they are already going faster ) With me topping off at 170, you 169 it's a pipe dream even on the longest straight on the planet. Your just matching me when I'm out front leading, not falling further behind until 169, but not gaining either. At 169, buy buy, albeit slowly.


If we were online racing, you would love it because you would draft me

 

[grenadeshark]

I'd stop asking me to prove everything in videos, you know how that's been going but as I already said I would I'll make one when I get home... I'll make a nice vid showing just how crappy First gear is, in various circumstances lol... I wonder how it does with an auto, lol...

It doesn't matter how long it takes him to get in the sweet spot when The other car has leapt out in front and started the pull at a higher rate pulling away as they go. You seem to have a difficult time understanding this. It's the same as your delusion that because I stop pulling on you in 6th, that your going to catch up (hilarious) once the other guy is out front you will have to substantially out accelerate them to catch up or pass the speed they are at when they are already going faster ) With me topping off at 170, you 169 it's a pipe dream even on the longest straight on the planet. Your just matching me when I'm out front leading.


If we were online racing, you would love it because you would draft me

Just remember that although your opinions seem valid from your viewpoint, they don't necessarily seem valid through mine and vice versa. You tend to have a one sided approach to everything. Look at the whole picture.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Just remember that although your opinions seem valid from your viewpoint, they don't necessarily seem valid through mine and vice versa. You tend to have a one sided approach to everything. Look at the whole picture.

In what picture does that first gear give any benefits? I will give it that it's easier to drive 0 TCS if you have a hard time with 309ft-lb and 336hp... It's still slow and bogs off the line.

I don't see ANY disadvantage to shortening first, only benefits... What am I not seeing from your view point?

I'm being as clear as I can be with my opinion and view of the facts. What do you see that's different that I don't see?

Facts

1) I run side by side with CSLARC

2) CSLARC and I hit 164mph before turn 1, Grenade hits 163mph.

3) Grenade & CSLARC both top off at 169mph, I hit 170.

4) CSLARC bogs off the line from a stop, both grenade and I are relatively equal off the line.

What am I missing?

 

[grenadeshark]

In what picture does that first gear give any benefits? I will give it that it's easier to drive 0 TCS if you have a hard time with 309ft-lb and 336hp... It's still slow and bogs off the line.

I don't see ANY disadvantage to shortening first, only benefits... What am I not seeing from your view point?

I'm being as clear as I can be with my opinion and view of the facts. What do you see that's different that I don't see?

I always drive 0 TCS. I agree that shortening it can be better. But, you tend to do what I would call over shortening. It has lots of ill effects like making slow corners impossible to accelerate cleanly out of in first gear.

The way I tune cars, I create a first gear that has just enough power to turn the tires red for a limited duration in a straight line. Therefore, when you are coming out of a turn and you have G-Forces in play, you don't blow the tires off because the inability to put the power down.

A car that keeps the tires in the red in a straight line will be even worse coming out of a corner. That's my viewpoint.

 

[AssassinTuner]

I always drive 0 TCS. I agree that shortening it can be better. But, you tend to do what I would call over shortening. It has lots of ill effects like making slow corners impossible to accelerate cleanly out of in first gear.

The way I tune cars, I create a first gear that has just enough power to turn the tires red for a limited duration in a straight line. Therefore, when you are coming out of a turn and you have G-Forces in play, you don't blow the tires off because the inability to put the power down.

A car that keeps the tires in the red in a straight line will be even worse coming out of a corner. That's my viewpoint.

Wrong. You should NEVER be forced to use first gear aside from the odd slow hairpin, and off the line.

However it being shorter means you can grab second earlier for BETTER acceleration out the corners that's the point, that's why you don't rape first gear like that.

Keep in mind better drivers are not WOT 100% of the time out every corner having that Tq on tap is a good thing. stretching first like that just makes it easier to go WOT at slow speed, if you can handle the power it's better to have it available for when you need it.

 

[grenadeshark]

Wrong. You should NEVER be forced to use first gear aside from the odd slow hairpin, However it being shorter means you can grab second earlier for BETTER acceleration out the corners that's the point, that's why you don't rape first gear like that.

Keep in mind better drivers are not WOT 100% of the time out every corner having that Tq on tap is a good thing.

This is exactly what I am talking about. You think your opinion is right just because you think it. How can you reply to my statements with "Wrong". That's your opinion. Get it through your head. I tune my cars so I can use first gear. You tune your cars so you never use it.

If you can find in a respectable racing book somewhere where it says you may never use first gear on the race track outside of the starting line, I will concede that my way might not be the best. Until then, it's your opinion. Remember that word. Opinion. It's of my opinion that tuning a gear so that its only use is off the starting line is a big waste of potential. It's not as bad on a 6 speed car, but on a 5 speed, losing a gear can be detrimental.

For someone who does no racing online, you sure do have a lot of opinions on what is right and wrong. Being there is no tire wear in offline mode, you haven't even raced in the real physics engine from this game.

 

[AssassinTuner]

This is exactly what I am talking about. You think your opinion is right just because you think it. How can you reply to my statements with "Wrong". That's your opinion. Get it through your head. I tune my cars so I can use first gear. You tune your cars so you never use it.

If you can find in a respectable racing book somewhere where it says you may never use first gear on the race track outside of the starting line, I will concede that my way might not be the best. Until then, it's your opinion. Remember that word. Opinion. It's of my opinion that tuning a gear so that its only use is off the starting line is a big waste of potential. It's not as bad on a 6 speed car, but on a 5 speed, losing a gear can be detrimental.

For someone who does no racing online, you sure do have a lot of opinions on what is right and wrong. Being there is no tire wear in offline mode, you haven't even raced in the real physics engine from this game.

Hell don't you guys at least drive normal real card? Have you EVER grabbed 1st to make a corner, even those slow ass ones? NEVER! the very thought is laughable, I crawl even in 2nd, once moving first is not needed until I stop. Hell, you even have to be going slow (like 30klm/h) just to get the shifter in the gate...

I have a MKII GTi with a 98 VR6 engine swap and a 5spd. I run 13 second 1/4 mile on street tires. Chipped and every goody under the sun ALL Motor!

 

[grenadeshark]

Hell don't you guys at least drive normal real card? Have you EVER grabbed 1st to make a corner, even those slow ass ones? NEVER! the very thought is laughable, I crawl even in 2nd, once moving first is not needed until I stop. Hell, you even have to be going slow (like 30klm/h) just to get the shifter in the gate...

I have a MKII GTi with a 98 VR6 engine swap and a 5spd. I run 13 second 1/4 mile on street tires. Chipped and every goody under the sun ALL Motor!

Depends on the gearing. Sure in a closely geared 6 speed transmission, you won't drop to first.

On a 91 honda 5 speed, 1st gear is rather lengthy and is used when racing.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Depends on the gearing. Sure in a closely geared 6 speed transmission, you won't drop to first.

On a 91 honda 5 speed, 1st gear is rather lengthy and is used when racing.

That was funny.

How much time have you spent in that Honda IRL on the track grabbing first & at what speed were you able to get in the gate?

Maybe slow ass AutoX, not on a track.

 

[grenadeshark]

That was funny.

How much time have you spent in that Honda IRL on the track grabbing first & at what speed were you able to get in the gate?

Maybe slow ass AutoX not on a track.

Thanks for asking... and lots of time. Sorry, I spend time at the AutoX and not at all the amazing tracks that don't exist where I live.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Thanks for asking... and lots of time. Sorry, I spend time at the AutoX and not at all the amazing tracks that don't exist where I live.

Ahh, you see Auto-X is relatively slow to Track racing, and AT times your making crazy tight corners avoiding cones at low speeds That's a time when you will find yourself grabbing fist, it's rare when racing at a Track.

 

[grenadeshark]

Ahh, you see Auto-X is relatively slow to Track racing, and AT times your making crazy tight corners avoiding cones at low speeds That's a time when you will find yourself grabbing fist, it's rare when racing at a Track.

I wasn't disagreeing on any of that. I use first gear ALL the time. Again, all I am asking you to do is understand that your opinions aren't the word of god. Neither are mine. You don't like to have a usable first gear in your tunes, I do. I would be happy to test in a track environment, but you don't have PSN. So, all we are left with is two guys with varied opinions. Lets leave it at that.

 

[CSLACR]

In what picture does that first gear give any benefits? I will give it that it's easier to drive 0 TCS if you have a hard time with 309ft-lb and 336hp... It's still slow and bogs off the line.

I don't see ANY disadvantage to shortening first, only benefits... What am I not seeing from your view point?

I'm being as clear as I can be with my opinion and view of the facts. What do you see that's different that I don't see?

Facts

1) I run side by side with CSLARC

2) CSLARC and I hit 164mph before turn 1, Grenade hits 163mph.

3) Grenade & CSLARC both top off at 169mph, I hit 170.

4) CSLARC bogs off the line from a stop, both grenade and I are relatively equal off the line.

What am I missing?

I watched your video, you ran 37.5xx. That's not side by side with 35.100.

But as I suspected, now it's turning into other things, like who's got the highest top speed, pulls off the line quickest, etc.

Like I said from the beginning, this won't ever prove anything. This isn't me saying "haha guys, you suck and I rule" this is me saying you both set your gears however you want, because there is no test for "perfect" gearing, anywhere, for any track. Things like driver error, tires, the track in question and more come into play.

The power graph gives away the shift points, once you're familiar with GT's system, you can clearly see the drop off in power really happens at 6700 rpm, which is how I knew before driving the shift points were to high.

FYI, my car pulls excellently through the hairpins in first gear, which is all a road car needs.
A simple rev off the line helps too.

Edit: I generally don't use first gear either, but since everyone was using 60mph first gears anyway, I figured what the hell right? Since we're "tuning" this car to reach a speed it could never hit on any other track in GT5, it's necessary.

 

[grenadeshark]

I watched your video, you ran 37.5xx. That's not side by side with 35.100.

But as I suspected, now it's turning into other things, like who's got the highest top speed, pulls off the line quickest, etc.

Like I said from the beginning, this won't ever prove anything. This isn't me saying "haha guys, you suck and I rule" this is me saying you both set your gears however you want, because there is no test for "perfect" gearing, anywhere, for any track. Things like driver error, tires, the track in question and more come into play.

The power graph gives away the shift points, once you're familiar with GT's system, you can clearly see the drop off in power really happens at 6700 rpm, which is how I knew before driving the shift points were to high.

FYI, my car pulls excellently through the hairpins in first gear, which is all a road car needs.
A simple rev off the line helps too.

Well, your car is geared lowered which means you will have to back off the shift points more then me. But, I originally tried to gear for exactly 6700 rpms, but was having trouble making the tune fit. I just needed to change a few numbers and I managed to make it work.

I think your car was fine. Better then both of ours overall outside of your first gear which needed only a tiny bit of love.

 

[CSLACR]

Well, your car is geared lowered which means you will have to back off the shift points more then me. But, I originally tried to gear for exactly 6700 rpms, but was having trouble making the tune fit. I just needed to change a few numbers and I managed to make it work.

I think your car was fine. Better then both of ours overall outside of your first gear which needed only a tiny bit of love.

I think you'd find on SS tires my first would work very nicely through hairpins, the problem with any of these gearsets I see is none of them would be optimal for any track in GT5, including SSR7.

 

[AssassinTuner]

CSL I have yet to recreate that speed with your gears shifting exactly where you say. It's not even close, not repeatable by everybody. Every run I do it's side by side, I've ran your tune perfectly, smooth as silk, I used your shift points on my gear set (aside from 6th) I went faster then before and its then we stay side by side. So like I said YOU need to do direct comparisons, I can only test what you posted and base results off what it does, and not a still shot of something it has not done for me

More in a bit, just walked in.

 

[AssassinTuner]

I think you'd find on SS tires my first would work very nicely through hairpins, the problem with any of these gearsets I see is none of them would be optimal for any track in GT5, including SSR7.

I partially disagree. While I think geared up to 170mph is useless (as I've already said) my tune uses 4.441 for tracks that don't get over 155mph & 3.967 for faster tracks, Both work great around the Tracks . Doing my testing as stated at Fuji & Nurb GP/F...

Ill do a first gear demo for you guys who love to choke out first for no reason...

 

[CSLACR]

I partially disagree. While I think geared up to 170mph is useless (as I've already said) my tune uses 4.441 for tracks that don't get over 155mph & 3.967 for faster tracks, Both work great around the Tracks . Doing my testing as stated at Fuji & Nurb GP/F...

Ill do a first gear demo for you guys who love to choke out first for no reason...

There is a reason on this track.
My final drive can be adjusted just as yours for other tracks, my point isn't who has the best gearing here, my point is even though we're just accelerating here, the driver still comes into play.
And while I can give you video, it still will not prove anything.
I can add or remove power for a video comparison without being detected, I can intentionally make a car accelerate slower without changing shift point, I can even steer more abruptly to scrape speed without detection, it's a game of inches.
Hence the reason I said it should be engine stage 3, but that still won't prove I'm not de-tuning another car.

So like I said to you before this test came up in this thread, you have to gear by feel, and the ghost.
An equation to give a mph reading like the original GT helps dramatically, but it doesn't replace what can be done, it merely assists you in achieving the goal.

I think there's a positive in this for everyone in this, which is the reason I've continued so far, and that is, depending on your abilities, controller, practice, settings, and preference - there is no defined "best".

 

[AssassinTuner]

An equation to give a mph reading like the original GT helps dramatically, but it doesn't replace what can be done, it merely assists you in achieving the goal.

Yuppers, it's a Tool to help Tuning, it's not there to replace anything... What's there to replace? Sliders? TS Tuner?

I think there's a positive in this for everyone in this, which is the reason I've continued so far, and that is, depending on your abilities, controller, practice, settings, and preference - there is no defined "best".

That's why I do my own Test & try to make vids to show how I use Tunes not of my own & my own. But anybody can sandbag or cheat your right. That's why I have to base my impression off what I see or feel, not still shots.

When I do a full throttle launch in your tune it bogs down to 2500rpm (crazy) it's slow. I want to run it at the Nurb GP/F. So far with the current Tune, I hit 2:17.0 what FD do you want me to use to get around this Track better?

What is a good Time for your tune around this Track? I'm sure the car can do better, your a better GT5 driver then I, so what do you think?

 

[grenadeshark]

Yuppers, it's a Tool to help Tuning, it's not there to replace anything... What's there to replace? Sliders? TS Tuner?



That's why I do my own Test & try to make vids to show how I use Tunes not of my own & my own. But anybody can sandbag or cheat your right. That's why I have to base my impression off what I see or feel, not still shots.

When I do a full throttle launch in your tune it bogs down to 2500rpm (crazy) it's slow. I want to run it at the Nurb GP/F. So far with the current Tune, I hit 2:17.0 what FD do you want me to use to get around this Track better?

What is a good Time for your tune around this Track? I'm sure the car can do better, your a better GT5 driver then I, so what do you think?

You sure you are using SS tires? His car doesn't do that when I drive it and he said it doesn't do it either when he does.

 

[AssassinTuner]

You sure you are using SS tires? His car doesn't do that when I drive it and he said it doesn't do it either when he does.

SS Tires want to see the replay?

 

[grenadeshark]

SS Tires want to see the replay?

It's his Tune why would I run it faster?

Look at it from the other perspective. Both him and myself tested it and did not find it to bog down like you say it does.

So, are we both lying as well? Not everything is necessarily an attack on your integrity. We are just saying that our results differed from yours.

 

[AssassinTuner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZXMZCiQ6l4

Are you going to argue with this too?!?!?!? Is this not "definitive" proof? Hell do you know how many corners this set up forces a 1st gear down shift unnecessarily?

So that's why I ask, what would a better FD for this Tune be, coming from the Tuner... As I said I got a best of 2:17.0 what FD with his tune should be better or faster then 2:17.0. Or is that a good time with it?!?

Do the same and show me it NOT bogging down.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Here is how it should be when you don't Rape 1st...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUNis4DaPw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Ohh and incase your POV is crying about the Tires lighting up, the Second launch will show you how it's done using Driver Skillz to get out the Gate without lighting them up, or bogging down, the same gears. That's how it's done son.

What? No FD to run Nurb GP/F?

Am I lying???? Have I not proven that EXACTLY what I said happens, happens exactly how I said it.

Now it's YOUR turn to PROVE it doesn't happen exactly how I proved it does.

As you say what I displayed in video hp, tq, weight, power graph, tires (don't even own anything above SS, I can only imagine how much worse that bog down would be if I had been using anything above SS) gearing, and repeated full throttle launches it bogging down to 2500rpm is not happening. Prove It!

The video is "definitive"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZXMZCiQ6l4

Watch it again, what was that you were saying?

Sorry if I sound like an ass, but WTF. It boggles me that you say what occurs in the video, doesn't happen. Plus Grenade you jumped off on the "I won" BS before the real testing got started, premature ejaculation.

I attempted to make this not about "winning" but learning, despite that you still ejaculated.

CSL I was VERY clear we were going to test acceleration, top speed, launch, and take her to a Track, it was clear. I didn't change anything up after, it was clear before gearbox's were posted. I understand what your saying, so I ask you for the FD you want used for Nurb GP/F so I can try to beat my 2:17.0 best with it.

Did I rev high enough for the launch? I showed everything possible, seriously though how can you guys deny it Bogs down like I said it does?!?!? It doesn't make sense, if you really deny it I have to question your authenticity, Unless at this point it can be proven... As I've been FORCED to prove everything I say.......

Or is this the "End of Discussion"?

 

[CSLACR]

Calm down guy, I hadn't noticed a reply yet.

I see it bogs compared to yours, I just don't think it's a big issue, the car can handle the gear through any hairpin I can think of, so off the line isn't important to me in this case. Plus when you said "bog" I assumed no wheelspin, and slow acceleration, the video is still pretty strong acceleration, just not quite as quick as a quicker gearset.
Off the line performance is never a concern of mine in GT5.

I'll get a reading on a decent final drive for GP/D, and post it up when I do.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Calm down guy, I hadn't noticed a reply yet.

I see it bogs compared to yours, I just don't think it's a big issue, the car can handle the gear through any hairpin I can think of, so off the line isn't important to me in this case

Quite a bit in comparison, it's a huge issue off the line, and hurts going around the Track. At Nurb GP/F there are 5 corners that force you into 1st (speed slows so much first becomes optimum gear) each time hurting lap times. An unnecessary shift at any point doesn't help, 5 of them kills lap time potential.

Plus when you said "bog" I assumed no wheelspin, and slow acceleration, the video is still pretty strong acceleration, just not quite as quick as a quicker gearset.

No? It's exactly that "no wheel spin and sloooow acceleration", the acceleration is horrible. Once you make boost it picks up, but we shouldn't be falling under boost to begin with.

Off the line performance is never a concern of mine in GT5.

It's all important to me, is realism not at all important to you? (why are we playing GT5 and not NFS?!!) it's NOT only impacting performance off the line but around the Track also in many ways, none good.

I'll get a reading on a decent final drive for GP/D, and post it up when I do.

Thanks, I hit a best lap of 2:17.0 I'm positive this car can do better. Despite my best efforts good lines and smooth driving 2:17.0 was all I could muster up. If I'm not forced into 1st in 5 corners unnecessarily I'm sure it will do better

 

[grenadeshark]

I just want to point out if you are racing offline, the realism factor in practice mode is non existent.

 

[AssassinTuner]

I just want to point out if you are racing offline, the realism factor in practice mode is non existent.

I just want to point out, online or offline it's still a game neither is real, but WE as users under either circumstance have the option to strive for realism or not, wether one aspect shows to be at a higher level, that doesn't mean squat.

Your just upset because I PROVED what you say doesn't happen, indeed does. ahhh, I'm sorry

If your so ignorant you think the difference between online and offline is that big, I have to laugh bit. A lil less grip, that's all OMG the realism is gone offline, lol Good One! I can pic holes in the online racing that make it appear less "real". I've never lagged inputs when driving IRL lolol

Are you also so ignorant you think I've never raced online, because I don't at home? You need serious help, stop living off assumptions, they are the Mother of all F-Ups.

 

[yanaran]

I tested your gears with the same car setup that was posted a few pages back on SSR7. I drove along the driving line in all tests to minimize variation due to driver input and tested top speed, acceleration from rolling start and speed at the beginning of the braking zone to turn 1 (according to the driving line).

Short story:
CSL's gearing has the highest top speed, is fastest to 257 kph (160mph) and is also pulling away from both grenades and assassins ghosts the whole time. At no point did I see the huge differences that have been posted in videos, grenade and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.

Long story:
grenadeshark - shift points as listed are terrible. Using proper shift points instead (6600, 6500, 6500, 6500, 6700) it's significantly faster and pulls away from assassin up to 5th. Then the gap between 5th and 6th is too big and you lose a lot of momentum there and assassin starts closing and passing. About 1.5 car lengths behind CSL at the end of the start straight.
Top speed in tunnel: 273kph for about 1 second
0-257kph: 36.866s / 36.200s (your shifts / my shifts)
Speed at braking zone: 263kph

AssassinTuner - again shift points are pretty far from optimal. With proper shift points (6700, 6600, 6500, 6400, 6400) it's a lot better. With the shortest FD you listed you keep up with CSL and pull away from grenade until it runs out of steam in 6th. Middle FD is about half a car length behind CSL when both get up to speed in 6th but starts to lose steam. Top speed-FD is about a car length behind but doesn't lose anymore once in 6th.
Top speed in tunnel: 274kph for 3-4 seconds
0-257kph: 37.083s / 36.483s (middle FD), 37.483 / 36.516 (top speed FD)
Speed at braking zone: 263kph (both)

CSLACR - Not surprisingly I was unable to improve on your shift points. From a rolling start it pulls away and stays away from grenade and all variations of assassins gears except maybe the short FD one (the part before the ghost pops up).
Top speed in tunnel: 274kph ~5-6 seconds
0-257kph: 35.750s
Speed at braking zone: 264kph


I tested standing start briefly, and although CSLs gearing does indeed drop in rpm down to ~2700, I don't know if I'd call it bogging down since it seems to have almost no effect on the acceleration. I suppose if your launch ability is godlike you might be able to finesse the throttle enough to gain a meter or so on him. All 3 reached exactly the same speed after a set distance when I tested so the difference can't possibly be very big.

 

[AssassinTuner]

AssassinTuner - again shift points are pretty far from optimal. With proper shift points (6700, 6600, 6500, 6400, 6400) it's a lot better. With the shortest FD you listed you keep up with CSL and pull away from grenade until it runs out of steam in 6th.

At no point did I see the huge differences that have been posted in videos, grenade and assassin are pretty much neck and neck.

you keep up with CSL and pull away from grenade until it runs out of steam in 6th.

Ahh "Pulls away from Grenade" JUST like in the video You did see it then I never calculated shift points, said it from the start. Does fine when shifting right doesn't it.

There we go. Somebody else is getting my results. At least close.

As I stated, I only ran side by side with CSLs car when using his shift points (aside from 6th) I keep up side by side with a later shift then his 6th. That half car length you saw, I saw go either way depending on 6th gear shift. I did this with 3.967 FD this one agreed tops off at the same speed 169mph.

Nothing I could do to Grenades would make it keep up, I even used lower shift points, that helped, but not enough.

From a stop, I win every time without fail. It drops actually to 2400rpm NOT 2700rpm as seen in the video proof. Acceleration is SLOW in comparison to when My gears launch, as seen in the videos...
Hitting relatively the same speed at the same point is relatively expected, the time to get there is different .

So I conclude that CSL and I have relatively equal straight line performance from a Roll (you can give him a point up if you want IDK), I dominate from a Stop. Let's move on to a Track with corners.

Now let's go to a Track and see how the Gears perform around corners.... That's where I'm at with this thing...

2:17.0 with 5 corners forcing me into 1st unnecessarily. I need a better FD for this Track, Nurb GP/F.