The Displacement Wars

[Slash]

I hear it a lot, from here at GTP, the Internet in general. Why do us Americans have such large displacement engines??? Well I found a post from another forum that sums it up quite well, at least for me ad friends around me.

Having a huge engine is a status thing, I believe. Almost every kid wants some huge Detroit iron with an engine big enough to fry a chicken over every cylinder. In small towns, when there was nothing to do, you could always get a bunch of yahoos together and have a race (until the police showed up).

I used to have a Pontiac GTO with a 350 engine and a full race cam. It sounded like it was going to stall all the time, but it was monsterously fast. The fastest I ever went was better than 150 miles per hour on a lonely Texas highway. Thank God there were no suicidal armadillos that day.

When you're a kid, you have to "one-upsmanship" the other guy. Showing up with an economical car would get you laughed at. The only thing you would be good for was to make the beer run. When you get older, economics and family expenses kill your need for speed. All of the guys I would race with would never even think of speeding around with their kid in the car. Detroit muscle gets replaced with Japanese aluminum, fastback Mustangs get sold to other kids for Toyota station wagons or hatchbacks.


I still drive that killer GTO in my dreams, though.

In short, that basically sums up how a lot of us feel. For example, I have a friend that had 3 Mavericks, a '70 fastback, and the Cobra II. I have another who just bought a late 70s Lincoln continental, an another eyeballing a 1979 Trans Am. I myself have been looking at a Ranchero and Mustang II. My dads friend has 6 1970 Mach 1s in his yard with three 68s, a 67, a 73 and 71, and on top of that a GTO and a parachuted Camaro that runs on jet fuel and nitrous.

If I may add to that quote... Back in the day, more cubes meant more power, at least here. You've also got to keep in mind that gas was 30-75 cents a gallon when these engines debuted and gas generally stayed under $1.50 until the early to mid 2000s. So they were cheap to keep running no matter how inefficient. Repairs were cheap and easy due to their simple design. With a set of tools and a little know how, any average Joe could tear down an engine and put it back together. They were also powering tanks of cars as well. While in today's world, that's not so much the case anymore, but I find a lot of people still think those massive 7.5L V8's are the way to go, myself included.

Growing up in that environment, along with my friends, the general consensus is that a big engine means big power, scary amounts of power. That's sort of been the way we think and family has thought since the muscle car era. Today, engines don't need to be so large to make good power because of advances technology. However, I still find people who experience such engines in cars to agree they are loud and fast. Aftermarket came around to really wake up some old dogs of motors (see the Ford 351M). You can argue that Europeans and the like started producing setups that are still in use today and more efficient back then but even still. They weren't powering 6,500 pound cars. Lets see a modern 4 cylinder power a land yacht. I will bet money that the strain on that engine would be too much for it to handle. Most people still seem to think you've got a fast car and cringe when you tell them you've got a big block under the hood. There is a reason why the word HEMI is so famous. Or 454's, 427's, Cobra Jet etc.

 

[Aquarelle]

So it's a nostalgia thing?

I get it - I mean I find myself falling for the V8 big block charm every now and then, but I personally find something like how Mitsubishi squeeze such immense power from 2 litres to be far more awe inspiring.

I wasn't really aware of any 'war' though, people have different opinions and preferences, that's just a fact of life.

As long as you're not forcing others to change their views there really shouldn't be a conflict of interest.

 

[Tornado]

I think a much better explanation is that for something approaching 40 years in America there generally was no reason to use smaller displacement engines when there was no artificial taxation over it, fuel was cheap, and the practical benefits to doing so were somewhat frequently only imagined.


So American carmakers didn't do it.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Well fundementally, there is 2 way to increase power. Either make the engine bigger or make it work faster. Traditionally in Murica, gas was cheap so there really were no major disadvantages to going big, especially since a bigger engine would be more reliable compared to a smaller motor making the same amount of power.

 

[Slash]

So it's a nostalgia thing?

I get it - I mean I find myself falling for the V8 big block charm every now and then, but I personally find something like how Mitsubishi squeeze such immense power from 2 litres to be far more awe inspiring.

I wasn't really aware of any 'war' though, people have different opinions and preferences, that's just a fact of life.

As long as you're not forcing others to change their views there really shouldn't be a conflict of interest.

Somewhat of a nostalgia thing, but then again when some people experience being tossed in their seat unable to move, feeling the vibrations through the floor and the rip roaring sound of 8 massive cylinders spinning at 6,000rpm, it just makes me smile. They may have never experienced such a thing before, so they equate that to being fast and that basically sets the standard against everything else. This happened to me. You start to compare that performance to other cars around.

Back then it took cars roughly 15 seconds to get to 60, so doing it in 5-6 was a big deal. Still is pretty fast.

I didn't really mean a war, but it seams a lot of people just can't understand it.


I understand that it's pretty cool to see a lot of power out a small engine, that is pretty cool. But to me ya just not the same as experiencing the above.

I think a much better explanation is that for something approaching 40 years in America there generally was no reason to use smaller displacement engines when there was no artificial taxation to do it, fuel was cheap, and the practical benefits to doing so were somewhat frequently only imagined.

So American carmakers didn't do it.

I touched on this briefly in an edit to the OP.

Well fundementally, there is 2 way to increase power. Either make the engine bigger or make it work faster. Traditionally in Murica, gas was cheap so there really were no major disadvantages to going big, especially since a bigger engine would be more reliable compared to a smaller motor making the same amount of power.

Back then it didn't really matter. Up until the early 2000s, some of those engines had a 40 year run. Take the SBF and SBC for example. And they still make those, albeit crate form.


Deleted

 

[Wolfe]

You can argue that Europeans and the like started producing setups that are still in use today and more efficient back then but even still. They weren't powering 6,500 pound cars.

That's pretty much it, along with what Tornado said. We've got a wide open country with wide roads, which allows for big cars, which require gutsy torque rather than dizzying revs. Aside from taxes, Europe has quite a few centuries-old, narrow streets, and places like Japan and the UK don't have a lot of room to spare. One of the things that struck me most upon my return from a trip to Germany is how awfully wide our roads are; the average two-lane here would be a three- or four-lane road in Europe. We don't just drive cars with big engines; we drive big cars.

...when some people experience being tossed in their seat unable to move, feeling the vibrations through the floor and the rip roaring sound of 8 massive cylinders spinning at 6,000rpm, it just makes me smile. They may have never experienced such a thing before, so they equate that to being fast...

That's a good explanation for how some people end up hooked into this camp ("muscle") as opposed to another. Grunt, vibrations, and volume are exciting, but they're not the end-all in the experience of speed. Personally speaking, redline is something that always comes too soon -- I love cranking the Ninja up to 14,000rpm -- and an engine that loses steam early is a letdown. I don't mind spinning an engine up to make its power; the crescendo is what excites me.

I find this to be a pretty good read.

[link]

That's a crock of hyperbolic flamebait; you may want to re-edit that out, because it won't encourage any worthwhile discussion here.

 

[Joey D]

I grew up in the Detroit area and I still can't understand the need for a huge engine. Before I actually knew anything about cars (aka younger) I thought massive V8's were the best engines in the world, but as I got older and took off my blinder and now large displacement engines do absolutely nothing for me. I mean, I can still respect a car with big engine but I will almost always like the car with a smaller engine that puts out impressive horsepower numbers. Something like the V6 in the GT-R that puts out 540hp is way more impressive to me then the 400hp V8 that comes in the Corvette.

Tornado did make a good point though, there really wasn't a point for smaller engines in America until probably 10 years ago.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

This:

vs This:

You'll see the same type of variance in motorcycles and even horseriding. When there is a lot of ground to cover, you want to be comfortable. Comfort typically adds weight. Lots of weight requires lots of torque. Big American cars with big American engines.

 

[ildd]

Heres my take on this...
And yes, some things i'm about to say have been proven wrong and I know i'm wrong on many things but I don't really care.

I'm 18 now. I started getting REALLY interested in cars when I was 7. In my town, there would always be a bi-yearly car show in the Town Center(and there still is). I would always see a bunch of different cars... muscle, exotics, a few tuners, straight up rare cars, but the majority of it was classic. When I was 7, I already had Gran Turismo 3 for a year, nearly. I had a pretty good understanding of why cars are different.
You can go fast in both of these cars, but one of them comes with pure class while the other is "just" a hunk of metal with a giant ass engine. Since then to this day, I put design before anything else. It's just a personal preference. I always loved muscle cars(some more than others) but, now, that seems to be the only thing left for America; CLASSICS. Almost every American car now just looks like s**t in my opinion. Sure, there are a few exceptions. The catch is they cost $80,000 or more.

When it comes to engines, I'll take a V-whatever over a turbocharged I4/I6 at any price on any day. On most occasions, they're more reliable, much easier to work on, and I think the majority of people understand them better. Sure, times have passed me by; i'm aware that you can make a 2L I4 have 700 HP now. How many miles can you go before you have to replace something, though? 1,000 miles? VTEC only takes you so far. You may need a 6.5 liter, supercharged V8 to make 700 HP, and it may weigh 3x as much, but who cares? Do you want to hear a vacuum when you rev it or the meaty, classic American way to make power? I seem to be a hypocrite though because when it comes to Gran Turismo, I don't really care about the sounds...

Each car serves a different purpose. If you just need to get from home to work or school and you don't care how you get there, take the FWD, I4 Civic. That's perfectly acceptable and I don't mind it until you pretend like you're on a race track. Me, though... I take pride in things I do. I am very fortunate to have a w203 Mercedes as my first car. 2.6 L V6. Sure, nothing to brag about(163 HP/181 FT-LB). But it's a fun car and makes some great noise. With the right upgrades/mods I think it's one of the best looking cars. Not close to a favorite of mine, but I do like it very much...until I see the back . Anyways, i'm complaining about stuff I have no reason to complain about. It's 12 1/2 years old now and the interior may have some...problems... but which car doesn't? It's held up very well.


To finish off, I do agree with Joey's comment above. Modern engineering has gave us the power to get 545 HP out of a 3.6 L V6 engine. It's just a little bigger than mine and has just under 3.5x as much HP. AND IT HAS THE SAME MPG! That's incredible, honestly.
And don't get me started on Tesla

 

[CyborgGT]

I've come to seriously dislike traditional American car culture, and it's mostly the older guys that are really killing it for me. I was at a friend's house recently, where his uncle and the guy's friend were talking about the uncle's '68 Camaro he had sitting on his property. They were reminicsing about drag racing when they were kids and somehow imports got mentioned and how import drag racing is dying off. Here they were, talking up this 55-year-old car with a carbureted engine, then the friend actually said that the import racers need to "get with the times." It's ignorance like that, and what I see on a daily basis - the guys with their loud Harleys, and the ones with the modern muscle cars that get an aftermarket exhaust and feel the need to accelerate hard from every stop - ... I don't know, it's like most men have tiny neanderthol brains and everything they do is based on how "manly" it is. Really sounds like a case of compensation for something else.

Kind of going on a rant here, but at that same visit with the friend, they were drinking beer (I'm not a drinker) and the uncle's friend asked if it was "real" beer or just 3.2, so I brought up the point that in a can of beer there's no real difference in alcohol content and the guy got all defensive. I work in a grocery store and had the same conversation with a customer visiting from out of state; the guy was like "I'm from Texas, and we don't drink that 3.2 crap." Are you guys freaking serious? I feel like I was born in the wrong country.

My side of this argument: I care about the engineering behind an engine's design, not the simple displacement. Power-per-liter, particularly when naturally aspirated, is what impresses me. I <3 Honda, lol!

... and actually, ildd, there are 2.0L I4s making over 1200hp. Just saying. Nobody expects any dedicated drag engine to last long, though it can be done relatively reliable. What impresses me is that you have Civic guys doing this with the original Honda factory block, head, and sometimes even crankshaft. It's sad seeing how common complete aftmarket head swaps are in the domestic crowd, while it's a lot rarer with imports.

 

[Tornado]

I find this to be a pretty good read.

http://members.tripod.com/~juan_espero/lowpro.html

Not sure (but seriously hope not) if serious.

 

[ildd]

Here they were, talking up this 55-year-old car with a carbureted engine, then the friend actually said that the import racers need to "get with the times."

That's simply just people talking out of their ass thinking they know everything and that nothing has changed in 40 years. I'm willing to bet they have never heard of companies like Tesla that can absolutely smoke their car(The p85+ has a 0-60 in 4.2 seconds), technically without an engine.

and actually, ildd, there are 2.0L I4s making over 1200hp. Just saying. Nobody expects any dedicated drag engine to last long, though it can be done relatively reliable. What impresses me is that you have Civic guys doing this with the original Honda factory block, head, and sometimes even crankshaft. It's sad seeing how common complete aftmarket head swaps are in the domestic crowd, while it's a lot rarer with imports.

I was referring to the people that use their Civics to actually drive to and from places with the occasional drag. But yea, drag-dedicated engines won't last too long, of course. Along with the fact that they have to be perfectly tuned... taken apart... cooled... and put back together, they also get like 2 gallons to the mile

@the factory stuff- that just seems like a great way to light a car on fire or blow all the money you just spent on Turbos. Or both. They use the factory...everything, including transmission, and probably still use regular unleaded and some can't figure out why their car doesn't work anymore.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I find this to be a pretty good read.

http://members.tripod.com/~juan_espero/lowpro.html

...and Top Gear is an informative, educational program.

 

[Grand Prix]

If it has decent power, runs well, and sounds nice, what's not to like? I like everything from Rolls-Royce Merlin V12s, down to diminutive 2 litre Ferrari V12s, big block Chevys and Fords, Flat 6s, Henderson and Honda 4 banger bike engines, Harley V-Twins, 2.3 litre Straight 8s, 3 litre V6s, V16s, etc.

You're missing out on a lot of great engineering brilliance if you're only interested in one "camp" of engine design. Large engines are great for some purposes, smaller ones are great for others.

 

[McLaren]

Sure, times have passed me by; i'm aware that you can make a 2L I4 have 700 HP now. How many miles can you go before you have to replace something, though? 1,000 miles? VTEC only takes you so far. You may need a 6.5 liter, supercharged V8 to make 700 HP, and it may weigh 3x as much, but who cares? Do you want to hear a vacuum when you rev it or the meaty, classic American way to make power? I seem to be a hypocrite though because when it comes to Gran Turismo, I don't really care about the sounds...

I like how this went from a high horsepower I4 not being all that great because of the reliability to the American V8 being better because it sounds nicer.

Each car serves a different purpose. If you just need to get from home to work or school and you don't care how you get there, take the FWD, I4 Civic. That's perfectly acceptable and I don't mind it until you pretend like you're on a race track. Me, though... I take pride in things I do. I am very fortunate to have a w203 Mercedes as my first car. 2.6 L V6. Sure, nothing to brag about(163 HP/181 FT-LB). But it's a fun car and makes some great noise. With the right upgrades/mods I think it's one of the best looking cars. Not close to a favorite of mine, but I do like it very much...until I see the back . Anyways, i'm complaining about stuff I have no reason to complain about. It's 12 1/2 years old now and the interior may have some...problems... but which car doesn't? It's held up very well.

How can you sit there & claim a Civic is fine until you pretend you're on a race track when the car you say you own (a C240 I'm guessing) is excused because "it's a fun car and makes some great noise"? Your car is as every bit of a commuter car as the typical Civic, but with much more luxurious interior & bigger engine. You make the same power as a 6th generation Civic Si, yet that car is more of a sports car in every way than what you have.

@the factory stuff- that just seems like a great way to light a car on fire or blow all the money you just spent on Turbos. Or both. They use the factory...everything, including transmission, and probably still use regular unleaded and some can't figure out why their car doesn't work anymore.

And you think those Mustang or whatever big V8 owners aren't doing the same thing?

It's a testament to the quality of engineering manufacturers are building their cars with these days.

 

[TB]

I find this to be a pretty good read.

http://members.tripod.com/~juan_espero/lowpro.html

My issues with comparisons like that are if you're going to compare two vastly different vehicles, at least attempt to use similar models. Why does the Mustang get the SVT Cobra (upping the horsepower from the base 3.8L 150 to the 4.6L 305) while the Civic is a DX? The least you could do is go with a '99 Civic Si (shifting the power from 106 to 160 out of the same 1.6L), but then your graph wouldn't look as "good".

Speaking of which, the graph is wrong all over the place. The '97 Civic made 106HP at 6200RPM, not 80. It's almost like he's just pulling numbers out of his ass...

Secondly, if you're going to start off with comparing horsepower per liter, halfway through you can't then shift your focus to the highest horsepower engine being the winner.

Bottom line is this.

Anyone that thinks ALL vehicles are made purely to floor it at every opportunity is an idiot.

Anyone that thinks ALL vehicles are made purely to hypermile is an idiot.

Anyone that thinks you can compare stock V-8's to stock I-4's Is. An. Idiot. Never mind anyone who believes their BS.

The vast majority of drivers don't put aftermarket performance parts on their vehicles. The vast majority of drivers don't put fuel saving parts on their vehicles. The vast majority of drivers buy a car simply to get them from Point A to Point B without breaking down along the way. Yes, the journey can be more enjoyable in one car over another, but that's not what the discussion is about. As far as horsepower goes, a crap-ton or paltry, as long as the vehicle moves, does it really matter what it has under the hood? If you have a preference, fine. But don't you dare try to shove that preference on me and criticize me for having different needs and wants out of my vehicle.

The above is said from the perspective of a multi-time Honda owner who would love at some point to have a V-8 powered '68 Camaro. Why the drastic change? Because I think the Honda lineup is anemic? Far from it. My Pilot is exponentially faster than my larger displacement Blazer (3.5L vs. 4.3L). It's simply because I like the gorgeous body of the Camaro and she comes coupled with a V-8. If it had an inline 4 putting out 106HP, I'd still want one.

 

[ildd]

I like how this went from a high horsepower I4 not being all that great because of the reliability to the American V8 being better because it sounds nicer.

I said that as my personal opinion...All I was trying to say was the people that try and just bolt on a turbo(or... pay someone else to do it) probably don't know what they're doing to the car.

How can you sit there & claim a Civic is fine until you pretend you're on a race track when the car you say you own (a C240 I'm guessing) is excused because "it's a fun car and makes some great noise"? Your car is as every bit of a commuter car as the typical Civic, but with much more luxurious interior & bigger engine. You make the same power as a 6th generation Civic Si, yet that car is more of a sports car in every way than what you have.

I meant to say the people that drive them act like they're on a race track. Yes, a c240. I never made an exception... all I said was if you punch it, in my own opinion, sounds so much better than an I4(My moms car is a 2010 Ford Fusion) and just gives an overall better mood. The Fusion makes 10 more HP than my car and gets better MPG. It is a 2.5L. I'm not comparing the cars...I know my car isn't a sports car.

And you think those Mustang or whatever big V8 owners aren't doing the same thing?

Of course they are... but lets face it, people who buy Mustangs now think that they have the greatest cars on the road and the people who drive them act like some of the Civic drivers. Yes, the 2 most common teenagers car is a Civic/Accord or a Mustang. Act like they own the road... never use turn signals... weave in and out of traffic. Trust me, i'm pretty sure that's why I think so negatively whenever I see a Civic or Mustang that isn't going the speed limit. There's only 2 types of drivers of those cars.

 

[McLaren]

I said that as my personal opinion...All I was trying to say was the people that try and just bolt on a turbo(or... pay someone else to do it) probably don't know what they're doing to the car.

And what does this have to do with Inline 4 motors? People bolt turbos/superchargers on to nearly everything these days.
Your opinion seems more based around people who have no clue about cars in the first place than a specific part or engine.

The part in parentheses made me laugh, though. The highest horsepower cars in the nation are built by someone else on the owner's dollar.

I meant to say the people that drive them act like they're on a race track. Yes, a c240. I never made an exception... all I said was if you punch it, in my own opinion, sounds so much better than an I4(My moms car is a 2010 Ford Fusion) and just gives an overall better mood. The Fusion makes 10 more HP than my car and gets better MPG. It is a 2.5L. I'm not comparing the cars...I know my car isn't a sports car.

It sure sounded like it when you directly followed it with, "Me, though... I take pride in things I do" & then listed you had a C240 that was a fun car & sounded good, as if you were doing something different.

Just because it sounds "better" doesn't make you any different from the Civic owners you have a problem with.

Of course they are... but lets face it, most people who buy Mustangs now think that they have the greatest cars on the road and the people who drive them act like some of the Civic drivers. Yes, the 2 most common teenagers car is a Civic/Accord or a Mustang. Act like they own the road... never use turn signals... weave in and out of traffic.

That's not the point. Keep reading to the next sentence.

 

[ildd]

The part in parentheses made me laugh, though. The highest horsepower cars in the nation are built by someone else on the owner's dollar.

It sure sounded like it when you directly followed it with, "Me, though... I take pride in things I do" & then listed you had a C240 that was a fun car & sounded good, as if you were doing something different.

Just because it sounds "better" doesn't make you any different from the Civic owners you have a problem with.

I'm not talking about the highest hp cars... I'm talking about people daily commute. When I said pay, I meant that they pay their friend who has some idea of what he's doing or a shop that doesn't care about your car and doesn't warn you about what happens. You go in, you say "I want my car to go faster" and that's it.


"fun" as in all of the features it comes with... good handling and I feel safe. You're taking things out of context.

When did I say I was different/better than Civic drivers because I like the sounds my car makes?



And most importantly, when I said I take pride in what I do... I love cars. I wash my car every Friday. I maintain it. I take care of it and make sure it looks good. I'm not a total asshole driver like every other teenager.

Edit-I'm going to bed. I'll respond to the next quotes when I wake up

 

[Downhill Dino]

I'm not talking about the highest hp cars... I'm talking about people daily commute. When I said pay, I meant that they pay their friend who has some idea of what he's doing or a shop that doesn't care about your car and doesn't warn you about what happens. You go in, you say "I want my car to go faster" and that's it.

What world do you live in?

 

[McLaren]

I'm not talking about the highest hp cars... I'm talking about people daily commute. When I said pay, I meant that they pay their friend who has some idea of what he's doing or a shop that doesn't care about your car and doesn't warn you about what happens. You go in, you say "I want my car to go faster" and that's it.

You should elaborate on that, then. Just saying, "or pay someone else to do it" doesn't signify that's what you mean.

Regardless, none of that really supports what you had originally said beforehand.

"fun" as in all of the features it comes with... good handling and I feel safe. You're taking things out of context.

I took nothing out of context. You're not expanding on what you mean.

But again, none of that makes any difference to what you said about Civic drivers who suddenly pretend their on a racetrack. You're doing the same thing they are in a car built for a purpose no different from theirs; yours is just nicer.

When did I say I was different/better than Civic drivers because I like the sounds my car makes?

You critiqued Civic owners for pretending to be on a racetrack (I assume by when they "punch it") & then excused your car by saying, "all I said was if you punch it, in my own opinion, sounds so much better than an I4".

So what if it does sound better or not? You're still doing what you have a problem with them doing.

And most importantly, when I said I take pride in what I do... I love cars. I wash my car every Friday. I maintain it. I take care of it and make sure it looks good. I'm not a total asshole driver like every other teenager.

Edit-I'm going to bed. I'll respond to the next quotes when I wake up

Then, e...lab...or...ate. When you sit here & tell us a problem you have with a group, & then follow it with, "Me, though... I take pride in things I do." That gives us the impression you do something different. How is anyone supposed to know you're referring to car maintenance directly following a compliant against Civic drivers on the road?

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

As you can probably guess I like big displacement American V8s.


Why?...

...No idea, why do I like anything?...

...Personal preference.


I like the noise the deep burble at idle that transforms into a powerful roar as the revs pick up. I like the fact that they're simple and a bit backward and yet still produce big hp.

However I also respect that others prefer high revving I4s etc. and think that big V8s are old fashioned and outdated. In the end everyone has the right to their opinion. 👍

 

[daan]

We don't just drive cars with big engines; we drive big cars.

Lincoln Continental by GTRdaan, on Flickr

It's parked and it's still taking up half the road.

 

[Joey D]

I've come to seriously dislike traditional American car culture, and it's mostly the older guys that are really killing it for me.

That's one of the reasons why I quit going to car shows, although it wasn't always older guys being d-bags. I would start talking to someone about their car because I thought it was nice and they'd ask what I drove, when I told them they'd always laugh and say something stupid like "does it need a wind up key?" or "How do you merge on the freeway with such a small engine?"

The lack of respect in car culture is annoying. You don't have to like something, but at least respect the engineering that goes into it.

 

[Dennisch]

American car in tiny European street pic[img]


It's parked and it's still taking up half the road.[/QUOTE]

I have that problem too.

 

[Cano]

The lack of respect in car culture is annoying. You don't have to like something, but at least respect the engineering that goes into it.

This.

 

[Slash]

That's pretty much it, along with what Tornado said. We've got a wide open country with wide roads, which allows for big cars, which require gutsy torque rather than dizzying revs. Aside from taxes, Europe has quite a few centuries-old, narrow streets, and places like Japan and the UK don't have a lot of room to spare. One of the things that struck me most upon my return from a trip to Germany is how awfully wide our roads are; the average two-lane here would be a three- or four-lane road in Europe. We don't just drive cars with big engines; we drive big cars.

That's a good explanation for how some people end up hooked into this camp ("muscle") as opposed to another. Grunt, vibrations, and volume are exciting, but they're not the end-all in the experience of speed. Personally speaking, redline is something that always comes too soon -- I love cranking the Ninja up to 14,000rpm -- and an engine that loses steam early is a letdown. I don't mind spinning an engine up to make its power; the crescendo is what excites me.

That's a crock of hyperbolic flamebait; you may want to re-edit that out, because it won't encourage any worthwhile discussion here.

Edited out.

Anyways, this is pretty true. It's all based on what you want now. The whole experience I posted was just an example. Sure it's not the end all, but for most people who have never experienced anything else, that can be a pretty hard thing to top. As you said yourself, it's a good explanation of how people get hooked into the muscle car seen. It happened to me. It's true though, that's really how it can happen. Not to mention how whacky and different those cars seem to be on the roads of today, because they sure as hell stand out in a crowd.

I grew up in the Detroit area and I still can't understand the need for a huge engine. Before I actually knew anything about cars (aka younger) I thought massive V8's were the best engines in the world, but as I got older and took off my blinder and now large displacement engines do absolutely nothing for me. I mean, I can still respect a car with big engine but I will almost always like the car with a smaller engine that puts out impressive horsepower numbers. Something like the V6 in the GT-R that puts out 540hp is way more impressive to me then the 400hp V8 that comes in the Corvette.

Tornado did make a good point though, there really wasn't a point for smaller engines in America until probably 10 years ago.

Fair point. It is pretty cool to see a small engine make gobs of power, but to be that's just not my niche. Everyone has something that gets them going and a small engine isn't for me.

I've come to seriously dislike traditional American car culture, and it's mostly the older guys that are really killing it for me. I was at a friend's house recently, where his uncle and the guy's friend were talking about the uncle's '68 Camaro he had sitting on his property. They were reminicsing about drag racing when they were kids and somehow imports got mentioned and how import drag racing is dying off. Here they were, talking up this 55-year-old car with a carbureted engine, then the friend actually said that the import racers need to "get with the times." It's ignorance like that, and what I see on a daily basis - the guys with their loud Harleys, and the ones with the modern muscle cars that get an aftermarket exhaust and feel the need to accelerate hard from every stop - ... I don't know, it's like most men have tiny neanderthol brains and everything they do is based on how "manly" it is. Really sounds like a case of compensation for something else.

Kind of going on a rant here, but at that same visit with the friend, they were drinking beer (I'm not a drinker) and the uncle's friend asked if it was "real" beer or just 3.2, so I brought up the point that in a can of beer there's no real difference in alcohol content and the guy got all defensive. I work in a grocery store and had the same conversation with a customer visiting from out of state; the guy was like "I'm from Texas, and we don't drink that 3.2 crap." Are you guys freaking serious? I feel like I was born in the wrong country.

My side of this argument: I care about the engineering behind an engine's design, not the simple displacement. Power-per-liter, particularly when naturally aspirated, is what impresses me. I <3 Honda, lol!

... and actually, ildd, there are 2.0L I4s making over 1200hp. Just saying. Nobody expects any dedicated drag engine to last long, though it can be done relatively reliable. What impresses me is that you have Civic guys doing this with the original Honda factory block, head, and sometimes even crankshaft. It's sad seeing how common complete aftmarket head swaps are in the domestic crowd, while it's a lot rarer with imports.

I have seen this but not to a level that extreme. Power per liter means nothing to me. I agree about appreciating the engineering behind a design though, that's true. A lot of people simply cannot grasp that.

Not sure (but seriously hope not) if serious.

...and Top Gear is an informative, educational program.

It was meant to be a joke

As you can probably guess I like big displacement American V8s.


Why?...

...No idea, why do I like anything?...

...Personal preference.


I like the noise the deep burble at idle that transforms into a powerful roar as the revs pick up. I like the fact that they're simple and a bit backward and yet still produce big hp.

However I also respect that others prefer high revving I4s etc. and think that big V8s are old fashioned and outdated. In the end everyone has the right to their opinion. 👍

This mean deserves a cookie. The gurgling noise at idle, the powerful roar, the vibrations, the torque steer, it just gives me the chills thinking about it. I mean seriously, just listen to this:

That's one of the reasons why I quit going to car shows, although it wasn't always older guys being d-bags. I would start talking to someone about their car because I thought it was nice and they'd ask what I drove, when I told them they'd always laugh and say something stupid like "does it need a wind up key?" or "How do you merge on the freeway with such a small engine?"

The lack of respect in car culture is annoying. You don't have to like something, but at least respect the engineering that goes into it.

Its a mentality thing. Again with the having a large engine means big power kind of thing, everyone and their mother seems to believe it. If you tell them you've got a HEMI under the hood, they get all antsy and are like oh wow, that must have some power!


______________________


I can understand how visually older American boats may not appeal to everyone, I get it. Hell, some of them I don't even like. But that's just the way things were all those years ago, and I have heard people now talk about how new cars just aren't the same. How everyone knew you were coming if you came down the road in a big Lincoln....that's when Lincoln really was Lincoln. I'm just using that as an example of what I've heard.


Nowadays they really stand out of the crowd. Any old car does for that matter. You really can see how design has changed, how everything seems to blend in. One look at the "Did You See Anything Good Today" thread will confirm that.

 

[Liquid]

Having a huge engine is a status thing

Ah, so it's just another who's got the biggest dick competition.

 

[Slash]

Ah, so it's just another who's got the biggest dick competition.

If you want to look at it like that, I guess it could be compared

 

[Joey D]

Its a mentality thing. Again with the having a large engine means big power kind of thing, everyone and their mother seems to believe it. If you tell them you've got a HEMI under the hood, they get all antsy and are like oh wow, that must have some power!

The mentality is wrong though, big engines don't always equal big power. Sure they put out a fair amount of power, but there are several smaller engines that have a significantly better horsepower per liter. Take the Viper, it's an 8.4L V10 that puts out 640hp, which is quite a bit, but it only has a hp/L of 76hp. The GT-R has a hp/L of 143hp, that's nearly double the Viper's with less than half the displacement. For the Viper to have the same hp/L it would need 1,200hp, which is even difficult to achieve with twin turbos.

Nothing against big engines, and like I said I can respect them, but having the mentality that you need a big engine for big power is just wrong. Having a well designed engine will get you way further.

Nowadays they really stand out of the crowd. Any old car does for that matter. You really can see how design has changed, how everything seems to blend in. One look at the "Did You See Anything Good Today" thread will confirm that.

Car design from every era looks the same. Line up a bunch of cars from the 60's or 70's and they all look similar to other cars from the 60's or 70's. the only reason they stand out now is because they are vast different.