The Gospel according to Judas

[Touring Mars]

I was surprised to read in the Sunday papers yesterday about the forthcoming publication (in National Geographic) of details/excerpts from an ancient document discovered in Egypt which purports to be the Gospel according to Judas. (related article here)

There are many issues involved here, so a large dose of caution should be taken before accepting any 'news' about this document is taken as, well, gospel... but it looks set to cause a large stir in the religious community - my interest in the subject is mainly to see what the reaction of Christian groups is going to be, given that some of the content is highly contentious - i.e. that Judas was Christ's 'preferred' disciple, and that by 'betraying' Christ, Judas was infact fulfilling a divine mission... (I stress here that this interpretation is still highly contentious) - but it raises an important issue - who decides what the interpretation of the text truly means?

As a non-religious person (and a rationalist) myself, the meaning of the text isn't the main issue for me, but rather the fact that the document itself is a true historical artefact that potentially holds massive significance. Just like digging up a skeleton of a creature that means the science books should be rewritten (like recently, here...), does the discovery of religious artefacts mean that the religion books (even the Bible itself) be amended to incorporate this new and potentially significant information??

 

[Kylehnat]

That raises an intersting question, indeed. Science is often tweaked when new evidence comes to the forefront, but I don't know if you could convince any religious sect to re-evaluate what it holds to be true, even if the new "evidence" is overwhelming.

 

[Zardoz]

"The papyrus document dates back to the 4th Century, but is believed to be a translation of a Greek text written in AD 187.

"Most Biblical gospels are thought to have been written between 50 and 80 years after Christ's crucifixion."



"Written" by all-too-human authors. So many of us conveniently forget that.

How many books of fiction have been written since we first started putting our thoughts into written form?

 

[Touring Mars]

I think we have to make a distinction here between the relative merits of the Old and New Testaments - being a religious lay-person myself, I may be completely wrong, but I always thought that the New Testament was more relevant because it is atleast based on true historical events which happened not all that long ago (i.e. during the times of the Roman Empire); whereas the Old Testament is largely myth and speculation (and is a bigger source of disgruntlement to atheists etc., due to the lack of corroborating evidence etc.)

For me, the discovery of this document adds more creedence to the overall story of the real life of Christ - all the more reason why it would be a mistake (in my opinion) for it to be disregarded or labelled irrelevant by Christian groups - if it is indeed the Gospel according to Judas, then it should be as revelant as any other part of Scripture...

Of course, what is quite staggering is the fact that the document, already badly damaged and incomplete, was never passed to people with the skill and equipment to analyse and preserve it properly until now... after it's discovery, it was traded on the black market between rich art/antiquities collectors, and some of the pages have even (reportedly) been stolen or even deliberately damaged/obscured by parties "with a vested interest in the status quo" (Brownie points if you recognise the quote )

 

[Zrow]

been stolen or even deliberately damaged/obscured by parties "with a vested interest in the status quo"

Liiike... the Catholic Church?

I don't think many atheists would argue that Jesus didn't live at all; it's the divinity aspect that's disputed.

 

[Coleio]

Ahh what a stir this shall cause eh.

Let's all sit back and watch the loyal christian following sqirm

 

[Pako]

Interesting read. This could be quite interesting as this story unravels.

 

[a6m5]

Personally, I think it's very exciting.

They don't talk about it in the article, and I'm not sure what types of tests are ran on something like this. I'm guessing it probably goes thru inspection by the scholars, then tests to determine how old it is. I'm just saying that there are people(or group) that will go to great length to counterfeit something like this, so I hope the tests were through.

Some sections of the Church fear it will challenge many of Christianity's most deeply held beliefs. It has already been labelled "dangerous" by one Vatican scholar.

I wonder how it is dangerous......

 

[Delirious]

I havn't read it yet...but here's a thought...if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, how would it have played out concerning his betrayal if there would be any at all? Would he still have been killed?

Plus modern Christianity in general holds that Satan entered into Judas, thus he was never saved.

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Matthew 26:24

How could Judas have been a preferred disciple if Jesus said about him that it would have been good if he had not been born?

 

[Canadian Speed]

I wonder how it is dangerous......

Well extreamists might loose their minds... Religion is no small thing to some people. It could devestate millions and millions of people. Change their way of life, their thinking... Maybe even pushing some to take their own lives. Imagine a revelation so profound that it shook you to the very core... Like finding out the Easter Bunny and Santa were fake on the same day, only multiplied by a million. The betrayal would be huge... Too heavy for some. Who knows what could happen...

 

[a6m5]

Good point. People could be bit hardcore, especially when it comes to religion.

 

[niky]

Damn, this thing is good enough to be Sci-Fi... or a Dan Brown novel.

I'll be waiting for the full story!

 

[Touring Mars]

Ahh what a stir this shall cause eh.

Let's all sit back and watch the loyal christian following sqirm

A stir, yes... but I don't think it should or will necessarily be a bad thing for 'loyal Christians'...

The point is whether or not the Christian church can or will absorb this new information - and what effect it may have. In my opinion, it probably won't have too much of an effect on whether or not people have faith in God or belief in the Bible at all... but it is controversial because the rigidity of some sections of Christian belief makes it difficult (if not impossible) to accommodate new information (i.e. fundamentalists)... that said, the vast majority of Christians (as far as I know) are able to accommodate new information (much like the discoveries of modern science) without any conflict with their religious beliefs - but this is the first time in a long time that there has been new physical evidence, from around Biblical times, that suggests that the current content of the Bible may require some slight adjustment - even if that is simply a slight adjustment in the interpretation of certain parts (i.e. those pertaining to Judas)... in other words, I see the vast majority of Christians being more than capable of taking this new information on board without the need for any squirming...

 

[Delirious]

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Matthew 26:24

How could Judas have been a preferred disciple if Jesus said about him that it would have been good if he had not been born?

Hasn't devastated me yet...

 

[FoolKiller]

Sensationally, the manuscript portrays him not as a villain but as a hero and Christ's favoured disciple.

It claims to repeat conversations between the two men and shows that in betraying Christ, Judas was fulfilling a divine mission.

The Mail on Sunday has interviewed experts involved in the project and has established that, according to the gospel, Christ instructed Judas to betray him with the words: "You will become the apostle cursed by all the others. Judas, you will sacrifice this body of man which clothes me."

In another hugely significant section of the manuscript, Jesus tells Judas: "You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generation and you will come to rule over them."

Am I the only one to see Dracula 2000? This is the backstory almost perfectly. Dracula was Judas and was favored by Christ and as such was the one who made the ultimate sacrifice of betraying Christ and it was his destiny. He then cursed Christ as he tried to kill himself and was turned into the first, and head, vampire as punishment.

This being released in April makes me wonder if we will see April Fool's when they have the article about the revelation.


As for how Christians will handle it, it all depends on how the leaders of the churches handle it. Many changes in the belief system have occured, but have also been blessed by the pope or someone of that nature. Those are accepted.

It is when someone questions the church and the church leaders don't support it that things go all crazy.

For example: In 591 AD Pope Gregory the Great proclaimed Mary Magdalene to be a prostitute by saying that she was the same as an unnamed sinful woman from Luke. The Catholic Church corrected this error in 1969, but it was so commonly accepted by then that most people still don't know that the official belief is that she was not a prostitute. But because teh pope said so in 591 then it must be true, and it was accepted.

Now, on the other hand if you try to tell someone that Mary Magdalene might have actually been Jesus' wife or even just in love with him then you had better run and hide. In reality, the only problem with that idea is that it might mean Jesus had sex (NO!). We want to believe that Jesus came to Earth so that he could live as a human and experience being human, yet he never knew a relationship or all the things that go with it? Thsi idea will upset many Christians. In fact a fictional book is written that plays on this idea and you would think the world has ended.

See the difference? I'm not even going to get into the protestant vs Catholic issues, or even the protestant denominations vs each other issues.

Some sources have indicated that as well as conversations between Christ and Judas, the gospel also contains another "surprise" which will be revealed when the full contents of the manuscript are unveiled in Washington on April 6.

Ooh, I love a surprise ending.


Full Disclosure: I am a believing Baptist-raised Christian who does not claim any denomination because I feel that they have lost sight of their faith due to disagreements over unimportant things.

 

[Zrow]

If Judas hadn't betrayed Christ, how would we all have gotten saved? Which leads to my next question; if Judas was instrumental in God's plan for us to be saved by the death of Jesus, how could he be damned to hell?

 

[Poverty]

Its going to be amusing watching the weak crumble.

 

[Delirious]

Am I weak? Am I going to crumble? Is my desire for a full-time church job going to falter?

 

[FoolKiller]

If Judas hadn't betrayed Christ, how would we all have gotten saved?

Well, he seemed to be pretty high profile. I am sure that the soldiers would have found him eventually.

Which leads to my next question; if Judas was instrumental in God's plan for us to be saved by the death of Jesus, how could he be damned to hell?

Who says he was instrumental and that it wasn't just a matter of Judas' free will and greed? Who says, and knows for sure, that he is damned to Hell?

See, this is the problem I find in Christianity, we assume we know more than we actually do. Thsi creates fodder for non-believers who wish to force us to question our faith with situations like you just presented.

Its going to be amusing watching the weak crumble.

Or like many other "newly discovered books of the Bible" it will get ignored and most people will never know it existed. It isn't as if this article is from CNN. I had never even heard of that site until now.

You also seem to be getting some amusement from the idea of Christians suffering from doubt due to something causing them to question their faith. That is very disconcerting. I wouldn't be amused at the idea of science finding proof of God's existence and then watching atheists fall down in tears begging to be forgiven for their ignorance and doubt.

 

[Famine]

How could Judas have been a preferred disciple if Jesus said about him that it would have been good if he had not been born?

... according to Matthew. And let's face it, the four Gospels can't even agree on what Jesus's last words were.

 

[Delirious]

Are you referring to the last words before or after the crucifixion?

 

[Famine]

You tell me... There's three versions after all.

 

[Zrow]

See, this is the problem I find in Christianity, we assume we know more than we actually do. Thsi creates fodder for non-believers who wish to force us to question our faith with situations like you just presented.

My aim really isn't to get you to question your faith; most believers (except for maybe Tom Cruise and Isaac Hayes) don't seem to be bothered by those sorts of questions anyway. It's just questions that have made the idea hard to stomach for me. I guess details like this shouldn't really matter to a believer, though.

 

[FoolKiller]

My aim really isn't to get you to question your faith; most believers (except for maybe Tom Cruise and Isaac Hayes) don't seem to be bothered by those sorts of questions anyway. It's just questions that have made the idea hard to stomach for me. I guess details like this shouldn't really matter to a believer, though.

I wasn't accusing you, just pointing the fact out. Although I do admit I was curious where you were wanting to take that.

Christians who find themselves bothered by questions like that are the ones who are determined they know how everything is and how it happened. They take scripture overly literal yet ignore the parts that are convenient. These are the people that will just ignore the Judas book or gospel or whatever. They are also the same ones that argue over what hand gestures should be made when and if a memorized prayer is as honest as one made up on the spot "from the heart." They think that details like this determine whether someone is going to Heaven or Hell. It's just a hand gesture!

I am of the belief that people who can argue, and divide churches, over these kinds of issues have forgotten what it is actually about. If it was intended for me to know the answer to whether Judas is or isn't in Hell and whether he had to betray Christ for me to be saved or not then I would have been told. If I am supposed to know but some Pope a thousand years ago chucked it out of the "official" Bible then I hope God can forgive my ignorance.

 

[s0nny80y]

Do you think it's coincidental that the manuscript is being released a month before "Da Vinci Code?"

 

[FoolKiller]

Do you think it's coincidental that the manuscript is being released a month before "Da Vinci Code?"

I was thinking more like it was just before Easter, but it has sat around for years and they are doing it in the same year as The DaVinci Code comes out, so you might have a point.

 

[Poverty]

I searched for gtplanet on www.googleaprilfool.com and it brought me to this page.