The level of realism in GT5-P beyond comparison.

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RainMan844

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GTP_RainMan
I'm a big F1 fan. I'm the kind of fan who goes to be a 3 in the morning to watch the Monaco Gran Prix Qualifying and wake up at 7:30 AM to watch the race (Montreal, Quebec, Canada Times Zone).

I'm also a GT franchise racer, from GT1 to GT5-P.

Since GT5-P doesn't have the Monaco Circuit (yet) like in GT4, I decided to get the Ferrari F2007 a test run on the Fuji Speedway (one of my favorite official track and also used in F1)

I first used the Time trial because I wanted to test the machine and not race, but was let down because I couldn't used Racing tires (like they do in F1)

So I went for the racing.

My setting:
AI level:
​
101
Physics:
​
Pro
Transmission:
​
MT
Active Steering:
​
OFF
ASM:
​
OFF
TCS:
​
2 (they have TCS in F1 the GT5-P Default was 5 so I reduced it to 2 so to reflect what I tough was real life)
Front / Rear Tires:
​
R3



After a few runs, and after leaving the AI behind I decided to check how to the pros drive on this circuit, and most importantly, I wanted to check what was the best lap for this track under good driving conditions.

The fastest lap for this circuit is held by Luis Hamilton: 1"18.91 at the 2008 Japanese Grand Prix practice run.
My best lap time in this race was 19"35. And it was the average lap time for most Pro F1 racers in real life. I was shocked...

I was more impressed after checking this video:
http://www.motorchili.com/video/1216/F1-Fuji-2008-Onboard

and compared it to my replay Video (see attached file)
PS: Please excuse my really bad overtaking skills :guilty:

Notice how similar the 101 level AI in GT5-P and the Professional drivers seem to not only follow the same racing line, but break and shift gear at the same time. They react the same way in the big arc from linking corner 4 to 5
f1.jpn.gif


The best part was while watching the real race video, I could relate to some of the oversteer the the real driver had to deal with on this track.

So yeah...this is a bit scary. I have never driven anything aside form my dad's pickup truck, and My Mazda Protege to go to school and work NAd I was pushing a F1 car to it's limits, speeding at corners where Professionals would have been cautious. And the experience was better that buying that expensive F1 ticket.
 

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I would try it with 1 TCS and 1 ABS and R2s. R3 are really really sticky. Like time trial tires. You should look at the lap times for the F2007 on Fuji and with what tires (also race or qualifying). That should give you a more accurate comparison. Also if I am not mistaken the F2007's physics in GT5p are not very well modeled (at least that is what I hear).

Just wait till GT5 has older F1 cars. You want insane to drive, that will do it. Back in the days when they did not have traction control or ABS. While the F1 cars of today take a lot of skill to drive they rely more on computers than the drivers skill. With the old cars it was just the car, the driver and the road.
 
TCS:2 (they have TCS in F1 the GT5-P Default was 5 so I reduced it to 2 so to reflect what I tough was real life)
Click to expand...
Traction control is not allowed since 2007 or 2008 im not really sure here.
 
First of all: that video is amazing.

Second: Damn you PD, look at Massa's head. Look at it! We need more (head) movement inside the car! It's impossible to sit still at those speeds! :ouch:
 
@ humpus

ye, regarding the helmet movements in the game i totally agree with you.

in gt5p looks it like a upcoming coffee break :P.
 
Massa's head movements are very unique in the Grand Prix field. His head is more animated, and indeed turns into the turn just before.

To the OP, if you want an even more realistic Formula 1 experience, try Formula 1 Championship Edition. Otherwise, turn OFF all driver aids, and throw on some N1s.
 
RainMan844
and D- goes to this guy... for making something that he thinks is a "point"
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The entire OP and thread title is talking about realism beyond comparison :P I dont see how there was anything wrong with my post that would require you to start being a bitch about it. I've often heard developers market their games as realistic because you get similar times to the real life record lap times when it means very little. Its how the car responds that matters.
 
WolfRacer543
The entire OP and thread title is talking about realism beyond comparison :P I dont see how there was anything wrong with my post that would require you to start being a bitch about it. I've often heard developers market their games as realistic because you get similar times to the real life record lap times when it means very little. Its how the car responds that matters.
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how can you get different lap times if the car responded differently.

Ask any driver and they will all tell you that their performance is strictly related on the feel of the vehicle to the road. Why do you think F1 teams tweak can customize their cars in accordance to the spec of the driver?

and btw, getting a car,s physic's juts right in a game is not a big deal if you,re good in mechanical physics...The problem lies in the tons and tons of equation, variables and calculations that has to be done in real time and it,s also very CPU intensive: That,s why you have "standard" driving physics in GT4 , and in GT5P you have both "professional" (with more variables) and standards...The ps3 obviously has a faster CPU...

and i,m sorry...your earlier 2 liner here deserved a D-, and trust me, I'm really not being a bitch about it...:sly:
 
RainMan844
how can you get different lap times if the car responded differently.
Click to expand...

The car just has to be able to corner at the same speed. It says nothing about what happens if you go slightly beyond the traction limit, or are driving just below it. It says nothing about oversteer or understeer, it says nothing about how hard it is to lay down power. How quickly weight transfers, slip angles, road surface and the tires' and suspension's response to it.

Its easy to make a game that simply allows you to corner at the same speed as a certain real life car. You just tweak a few variables until you end up with the same corner speed. The car itself may have completely different characteristics.

Corner speed doesn't tell you how a car handles, the corner speed is the result of how the car handles. Likewise just because you can accelerate out of a corner at the same speed, it tells you nothing about how the real car lays down its power.
 
WolfRacer543
The car just has to be able to corner at the same speed. It says nothing about what happens if you go slightly beyond the traction limit, or are driving just below it. It says nothing about oversteer or understeer, it says nothing about how hard it is to lay down power. How quickly weight transfers, slip angles, road surface and the tires' and suspension's response to it.

Its easy to make a game that simply allows you to corner at the same speed as a certain real life car. You just tweak a few variables until you end up with the same corner speed. The car itself may have completely different characteristics.

Corner speed doesn't tell you how a car handles, the corner speed is the result of how the car handles. Likewise just because you can accelerate out of a corner at the same speed, it tells you nothing about how the real car lays down its power.
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I have one question for you. And I'm not a race car game fan boy or anything, I just need an honest answer. have you ever raced a real car and then get home, jump on your preferred racing simulator and raced that same car ? And by race I mean, raced the car on a real racing circuit, one that is regulated and that you find in your preferred driving simulator. With the same settings, same conditions, and especially the same car.

Well a few have had hat chance. And they all say the same thing:"The only thing missing in those "recommended" racing simulators" is the sensation of G. Meaning that the only thing that keeps those simulators from being 99% accurate is the sensation of the forces caused by acceleration, deceleration. breaking and cornering.
This is something that can never be replicated in any simulator (well the cheap ones for that matter).

Understeer and oversteer are very well documented by both drivers and physicists, so i find it stupid for a brand hat bases it's whole concept on being a "simulation", not to reproduce accurately.

Now if you race (meaning push a car to it's limits) or play any simulation racing game (even the ones who are not accurate due to ehter limited staff, budget, CPU availability) you know that these two things dictate whether or you push the car in that apex or not.
 
Nope, I haven't raced a race car then raced the same race car in a game. Well unless you include go karts in TOCA :P

I'm not saying the game is unrealistic, I'm saying getting the same times is not a measure of realism.

I could go into game and take a race car which is 500hp and screw up the car so bad, adjust the suspension bad, mix up the tire compounds and pressures, give it either absurd over or understeer, make it so hard to lay down the power such that at the end of it you get the same lap times, same corner speeds, etc, as a well tuned 300hp street car of the same weight. Does that mean it handles like a 300hp street car now? No, its a bitch to drive, its just the sum of everything I did ended up with the same performance. Infact it probably handles worse, far harder to drive, but lap times are the same, so it must be realistic? A few times I did this in Live for Speed, took a race car and raised it up and screwed with the suspension to have "funny" races with friends, you could only corner as fast as a slow street car because the badly set up car would roll if you tried to go too fast.

In a game, its easy to make a car get the same lap time as another car, very hard to get it handle realistically. To get the same lap times, you just keep playing with the core parameters until you have the same lap times, it doesn't mean the parameters you changed are indicative of the real car.

As an example, look at formula SAE. Its a very open formula, you have a lot of freedom. In the end, you'll get several cars that are all within 1 second of each other on the track, but they'll all be vastly different cars. Some lighter single cylinders, some heavier 4 cylinders, some have clutch pack diffs, some have locked diffs, vastly changing HOW the car needs to be driven, changing what happens when the driver does certain inputs. But on the track, they are all cornering at the same speed and getting lap times very close to each other.

I never meant to offend you by saying the game is unrealistic, just that corner speeds and lap times are no indication that a game is realistic.

Also, most the real life race drivers who say the games are realistic are doing so as marketing ploys. Often they are sponsored by the company. If Sony is giving you big money to have their sticker on the side of your car, money that you NEED to keep racing, of course you are gonna say the game is awesome.

EDIT: I've driven Formula 1 cars in several different racing sims, everyone "feels" very different, regardless of lap times, which is why I'd be surprised if any of them are actually realistic.
 
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loved the arguments.

I wasn't offended by your point of view (just the two liners you initially posted)
I'm a geek when it comes to argumentative literature (sorry :()

well we both have our perspective on things, abd we both bring valid points (as far as I,m concerned)


so I guess that the best would be for us to leave it at that.


I enjoy GT, and I,m pretty sure you do too...since you are here. So let our differences reflect the shining light that is North American democracy, and let the back stabbing and the misinterpretation to FOX news and Bill O'Reilly
 
i was just playing with the S2000 in GTP and while i was looking in the interior i saw the defi control unit thats pretty sweet and realistic. Great job PD i hope we can do this in GT5

2m695p1.jpg
 
WolfRacer543
Nope, I haven't raced a race car then raced the same race car in a game.
Click to expand...

you should've just stopped there. i've been racing in the SCCA for 12 years now. i have come home from driving a Z on the Daytona Road Course and tried it on GT5P.

and the only thing missing is the G forces.

the level of realism in GT5P is beyond compare.
 
XTR-KingTuna
you should've just stopped there. i've been racing in the SCCA for 12 years now. i have come home from driving a Z on the Daytona Road Course and tried it on GT5P.

and the only thing missing is the G forces.

the level of realism in GT5P is beyond compare.
Click to expand...

So you've driven an F1 car and confirm it drives like it does in GT5? :P Sorry then, my mistake.

I'm aware racing sims in general are quite realistic (including games like GTR, Live for Speed, iRacing, rFactor, etc, etc). But when it comes to high powered open wheelers, particularly F1 cars, every game I've played them on they feel quite different, which is why I question how realistic it is. The one race car I have driven (other than go karts) is a small open wheeler, the sensation is nothing like any sim I've played.
 
As many of you know, I haven't really been happy with the GT5P physics since they changed so dramatically from SPEC I to SPEC II. While I agree that SPEC I wasn't perfect, it was much more convincing to me. This might be partly due to feedback issues as much as purely physics issues. The most notable thing is that GT5P doesn't simulate understeer feel like a real car does. I also Autocross, and will be getting some track experience later this year. When a real car reaches the limit and begins to push badly, the steering will often get very light. Everything depends a bit on the type of car of course, but generally, you'll really feel the understeer kick in. I've driven a Mini Cooper S, Subaru Impreza, Classic 1968 RR VW (this is my "autocross" car), a Toyota Prius (yes, really), and most recently a 1980 Porsche 911sc. I'm a big fan of the RR layout in general, and feel by far the most comfortable in the Porsche and the VW "at the limit".

Anyway, back to my point. I currently feel that GT5P is a strange mixture of excellence combined with bizarre gaps such as the failure to simulate understeer properly through force-feedback wheels. It is there in the physics model, but doesn't show up in the wheel (I use the G25). Try Ferrari Challenge and over-cook it into a corner and you'll feel the wheel lighten as it should. This is also modeled properly in a number of other SIMS. They desperately need to add this to GT5 as it helps you sense where the limits of grip are. I also feel that many of the cars are quite simply "stupidly easy" to control. It's as if the physics are there, but the consequences of screwing-up aren't anywhere close to as dramatic as they should be. I still feel that everything was simply much more dynamic, realistic, and fun, in the SPEC I release. Not perfect, but way better than what we have now. The real-life experience which I do have backs me up in this assessment, but I'll have to wait until the final GT5 release to really make that call.

So I'm leaving my final judgement for when GT5 comes out. I'll give it a try and compare it to my Autocross experience in similar cars. Currently there isn't anything in GT5P which is similar enough to what I've autocrossed to really compare properly.

A good sign that PD can get it right is that I have been very impressed over time by how accurate GT4 is. Sure, there are some limits to this realism, but it is very, very close. I only recently raced a Porsche 911sc (1980), and the balance was very similar to the old RUF BTR in GT4. Superb balance and very easy to control the over/under-steer characteristics by using my right foot and the rear weight-bias and some fun counter-steering. Likewise my 1968 VW bug is quite close to the 1968 Ghia in GT4. Same idea as the Porsche, but much, much tricker to handle on the edge than the Porsche. Again, the Subaru, Prius, and Mini are all very close when I compare them in GT4 and in real-life Autocross.

Here are a few of my Autocross videos: The most interesting bit in the Porsche races may actually be the photo slide-show at the end of the laps, so skip to that if you get bored. They demonstrate the forces involved a lot better than the videos do. They start at around 5 minutes and 30 seconds into the videos. Also, for some reason the new YouTube rendering is making my uploaded videos jerky. I think they are re-rendering the videos at a lower-frame rate. They are smooth on my end before upload, and YouTube used to process my videos just fine. This is a new problem. I'll probably just end up moving to another service eventually.

Me in the Porsche: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueSo3di9tWc&feature=PlayList&p=26003F0107526D1F&index=0

Father in the Porsche (it is his - he is 72 and is his second autocross!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L4_6Hz-150&feature=PlayList&p=26003F0107526D1F&index=1

Me in the VW last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-6rVVw8uFE&feature=PlayList&p=26003F0107526D1F&index=2
 
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RainMan844
I have one question for you. And I'm not a race car game fan boy or anything, I just need an honest answer. have you ever raced a real car and then get home, jump on your preferred racing simulator and raced that same car ? And by race I mean, raced the car on a real racing circuit, one that is regulated and that you find in your preferred driving simulator. With the same settings, same conditions, and especially the same car.

Well a few have had hat chance. And they all say the same thing:"The only thing missing in those "recommended" racing simulators" is the sensation of G. Meaning that the only thing that keeps those simulators from being 99% accurate is the sensation of the forces caused by acceleration, deceleration. breaking and cornering.
This is something that can never be replicated in any simulator (well the cheap ones for that matter).

Understeer and oversteer are very well documented by both drivers and physicists, so i find it stupid for a brand hat bases it's whole concept on being a "simulation", not to reproduce accurately.

Now if you race (meaning push a car to it's limits) or play any simulation racing game (even the ones who are not accurate due to ehter limited staff, budget, CPU availability) you know that these two things dictate whether or you push the car in that apex or not.
Click to expand...

I have, Subaru Impreza in real life and GT5:P, it feels totally different, alien in fact to the actual car, no sensation of G is right, the real car put me back in my seat, the game just can't do that, gear change speeds were all correct though 👍
 
LeMaltor
I have, Subaru Impreza in real life and GT5:P, it feels totally different
Click to expand...

Well, I don't think you can compare real life cars to game until you push them to the limit many times in real life on some racing tracks.

I own 200 HP Prelude VTi-R, and before I was driving recent Eclipse, still have no idea are this cars real in Forza/GT or not.

Never attacked turns at 100 mph in real life, something which is very hard to do on public roads
 

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