The Migration to AWD Supercars Affect on the GT Series

[GT55YW]

Clearly there is a shift to AWD models for performance vehicles. The Veyron, the NSX, the FF, every Lambo for the past 5+ years (save Balboni).

It just makes sense, especially great ideas like the DNX/BMW i8/NSX using petrol and electric motors, and Ferrari's front wheel system is just amazing. I have never driven it, but from what I saw and how it was explained on Top Gear, wow. Just wow.

It makes sense to increase acceleration through AWD systems, especially as we are moving away from top speed to lightweight/agility, and switching to more efficient systems (less big engines, more charging by turbo and super)

As a family member of mine just got a new MKZ, and the AWD system is interesting in how it works. So what does everyone think of these affects on the future GT series? May we ever see another MR Lambo? Other than junk we always see on the road, Mustangs, Vettes, Camaros, what other FRs are there? I know BRZ/FRZ, but for real high performance.

 

[hsdioce]

Well thats a small portion of cars that are AWD, the new Ferrari F12 is RWD, and all the AMG Mercs are RWD, so really I don't think it'll change anything in GT5

 

[OK8]

I don't think there can ever be a pure sports car (in the same sense as the NSX-R) in AWD.

I don't like it.

 

[Jmac279]

AWD systems add weight and decrease available grip on the front tires, which obviously throws your lightweight/agility argument right out the window (relative to an MR).

There are pros and cons to each drivetrain, but lightweight and agility are not pros normally associated with AWD systems.

 

[Chico acsc]

Hopefully it will evolve the same way that brakes did...

When/If technology allows it by turning it into a simple and lightweight system, it will be the better choice.

Because, in theory and disadvantages not withstanding, I think everybody agrees it's better to have 4 wheels propelling the car than just 2.

 

[A1-242]

There was a MR Gallardo available & the Lambo GT cars are MR too. I don't think they'll be coming to GT5 though.

 

[GT55YW]

Well thats a small portion of cars that are AWD, the new Ferrari F12 is RWD, and all the AMG Mercs are RWD, so really I don't think it'll change anything in GT5

Other than the SLS, all of the AMGs are retuned from other vehicles that exist, rather than completely individual cars. I consider those Mercs like other vehicles, such as Mustang and Camaro.

I don't think there can ever be a pure sports car (in the same sense as the NSX-R) in AWD.

I don't like it.

This is my point.

AWD systems add weight and decrease available grip on the front tires, which obviously throws your lightweight/agility argument right out the window (relative to an MR).

There are pros and cons to each drivetrain, but lightweight and agility are not pros normally associated with AWD systems.

You are seriously saying that AWD systems take away grip? I am pretty sure that is inaccurate in most cases. And agility will make a difference with AWD, and I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that AWD systems ARE light weight, rather with the trend to moving to light weight vehicles.

I'm more pushing several patterns I've noticed together.

Hopefully it will evolve the same way that brakes did...

When/If technology allows it by turning it into a simple and lightweight system, it will be the better choice.

Because, in theory and disadvantages not withstanding, I think everybody agrees it's better to have 4 wheels propelling the car than just 2.

I don't think everyone does agree, and this is part of my concern. For super cars, not ordinary stuff we see everyday on the road, this technology might take away our rear drive systems. I hope it doesnt', to be honest.

There was a MR Gallardo available & the Lambo GT cars are MR too. I don't think they'll be coming to GT5 though.

Are Lambo GT cars MR for restrictions?
And the Balboni is the MR Gallardo, not sure if we meant the same one.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

You are seriously saying that AWD systems take away grip? I am pretty sure that is inaccurate in most cases. And agility will make a difference with AWD, and I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that AWD systems ARE light weight, rather with the trend to moving to light weight vehicles.

AWD takes away grip while cornering, thus inducing understeer. In a straight line 100% of the tire is being used for acceleration so there is no compromise for grip.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

If they make awd car I think it's not because they are better cars, faster car or anything I think. It's because they gave much more security. Also most of those supercar are not made for racing, but rather for rich people that can afford them and most of those people are average drivers so therefore awd is much better. Also a RWD supercar on the rain with sports tyres is very very very dangerous when an AWD car will have much less trouble and be much more safer.
Proof is that when they really make a supercar for racing purpose, it's usually not an awd car but rather a FR/MR/RR car.

 

[Mr. Apex]

AWD takes away grip while cornering, thus inducing understeer. In a straight line 100% of the tire is being used for acceleration so there is no compromise for grip.

While there might not exist AWD systems yet that achieve that, it is obvious that all you need is to refrain from sending torque to the front wheels at corner entry and then gradually increase torque when approaching corner exit.

A Mitsubishi EVO for example has a horrid balance IMO when entering corners and is only faster thanks to its diffs at corner exit. But why should it be impossible to make a balanced (weight distribution wise) Mid-Engine or electric or whatever AWD car who doesn't have the corner entry drawbacks?

My feeling is that the new NSX will smash the GT-R Nordschleife laptime to pieces … and maybe we GT5 users will be the first to try that out via DLC …

 

[FlyinHawaiian77]

Not 100% sure on this, but didnt Super GT ban AWD systems for giving an advantage in cornering? You may be right about AWD inducing understeer in corners. This is true, especially in Subaru's. But an upgraded suspension and tune will solve all of those issues.

 

[yzfmike]

Not 100% sure on this, but didnt Super GT ban AWD systems for giving an advantage in cornering? You may be right about AWD inducing understeer in corners. This is true, especially in Subaru's. But an upgraded suspension and tune will solve all of those issues.

No AWD is allowed. The Subaru is still the same. I think it has added weight to bring it to balance with other cars is the GT300 class. But they are switching to the BRZ which is FR.

 

[Raitziger]

GT5 does not model individual 4WD system well. Hope they improve in the future. At least you can always install torque split adjustment box to fix things for major problems.

 

[sumbrownkid]

If I have a lot of horsepower in my car, I'll take the everyday safety of AWD over the performance of a 2WD.

That said, AWD is pretty much equal now in terms of performance with the two wheel brethren. The GTR and the 991 turbo are evidence to that.

 

[twitcher]

In regards to what other super cars will stay away from 4wd or awd systems, I'm pretty sure most of the British manufacturers (Austin Martin, Jaguar, Lotus) will stay purist for quite some time (ie fr setups).

I would have to agree with the guy who brought up the point about supercars trending towards AWD is for safety reasons (any goof ball with fat pockets can buy a supercar, even if they are a terrible driver). Like he said, most of these supercar manufactures still use FR or MR configs for their track and race specific cars.

 

[crcn11]

Proper performance vehicles are not all wheel driven. Lamborghinis are not proper performance vehicles, the reason they have their drive system is Audi.

4WD = appealing to everyone, car reviewers like it, safe.

I'm not saying that 4WD cars are slow, I'm just saying that it's been tried and tested... fastest = 2WD.

 

[Iso Octane]

The issue with these AWD systems is that no sim will ever be able to model them correctly, thus the cars will never behave like the real thing.

Why? Because these AWD are computer controlled with complex algorithms... sim developers will never have access to these and therefore can't model how these things will behave in all situations.

It's lose lose. Dumbed down super cars and dumbed down simulation of them.

 

[Mr. Apex]

Proper performance vehicles are not all wheel driven. Lamborghinis are not proper performance vehicles, the reason they have their drive system is Audi.

4WD = appealing to everyone, car reviewers like it, safe.

I'm not saying that 4WD cars are slow, I'm just saying that it's been tried and tested... fastest = 2WD.

And then, as always, there's the exeption to the rule:

This Baby is a proper performance vehicle, and it does not understeer. Actually, someone should build something like this again: Mid-engine, transaxle to the front (gearbox in the front), that was a brilliant idea.

 

[Jmac279]

AWD takes away grip while cornering, thus inducing understeer. In a straight line 100% of the tire is being used for acceleration so there is no compromise for grip.

^^ That's what I meant when I said it reduces grip. When you're cornering at the car's limits, a RWD system will have more grip available to the front tires than an AWD system (all else being equal, of course).

The other thing I forgot to mention is that a more complex drivetrain such as an AWD system will typically have greater drivetrain losses, meaning less power put to the ground. Obviously, that reduces efficiency (although gearboxes, especially automatic gearboxes, are getting more efficient in very short periods of time)

I think the big thing with AWD becoming more popular in supercars is safety, as mentioned. When you have an engine producing 500+ horsepower on street tires in ever-changing conditions, it's much better to have an AWD system. It will increase available traction on acceleration and reduces the likelihood of spinning out.

 

[Mr. Apex]

^^ That's what I meant when I said it reduces grip. When you're cornering at the car's limits, a RWD system will have more grip available to the front tires than an AWD system (all else being equal, of course).

A RWD System has to channel all of its power trough two wheels, while the AWD can send it to all four. So IMO the remaining lateral grip can theoretically be used in a more balanced way. Of course this only makes sense if we are talking about powerful cars … if the car only has 2 HP, you might as well send it to only one wheel.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that a more complex drivetrain such as an AWD system will typically have greater drivetrain losses, meaning less power put to the ground. Obviously, that reduces efficiency (although gearboxes, especially automatic gearboxes, are getting more efficient in very short periods of time)

An electric AWD car with motors in its wheels does not have a drivetrain, so it has no or almost no drivetrain losses.

 

[omgsean1]

A RWD System has to channel all of its power trough two wheels, while the AWD can send it to all four. So IMO the remaining lateral grip can theoretically be used in a more balanced way. Of course this only makes sense if we are talking about powerful cars … if the car only has 2 HP, you might as well send it to only one wheel.



An electric AWD car with motors in its wheels does not have a drivetrain, so it has no or almost no drivetrain losses.

You means the Citroen GT Concept as electric car?

 

[Jmac279]

An electric AWD car with motors in its wheels does not have a drivetrain, so it has no or almost no drivetrain losses.

Fair enough, although I was referring to a conventional AWD system, not an electric or hybrid design.

 

[Machate-man]

An electric AWD car with motors in its wheels does not have a drivetrain, so it has no or almost no drivetrain losses.

Assuming that this car has no transmission to hinder the power, like a chain-gear or belt, It would not.

However, it would be theoretically impossible to fix any problems solved by a differential ( ex. One wheel spinning on the inside) since each wheel is propelled by it's own power source, rather than a centralized one (Engine> transmission>differential>wheel(s) )

Traction control seems the solution to the problem I made myself

No AWD is allowed. The Subaru is still the same. I think it has added weight to bring it to balance with other cars is the GT300 class. But they are switching to the BRZ which is FR.

The premium Cusco Subaru Impreza GT300 has 4WD...but lacks the weight balancing you refer to.

 

[GTMail]

You can't deny the importance of the Nissan GTR. You can't say it is not the future when it is faster than almost any street car on the planet. I agree that RWD is more fun but AWD is here to stay.

 

[VspecZR1GT2RS89]

A RWD System has to channel all of its power trough two wheels, while the AWD can send it to all four. So IMO the remaining lateral grip can theoretically be used in a more balanced way. Of course this only makes sense if we are talking about powerful cars … if the car only has 2 HP, you might as well send it to only one wheel.

An electric AWD car with motors in its wheels does not have a drivetrain, so it has no or almost no drivetrain losses.

So what you are saying, a AWD electric car with a motor will have no drivetrain losses because the engine won't generate huge gobs of power that can alter the car's weight distribution which can cause either understeer or oversteer like a fuel-injected combustion engine?


I was just wondering from your post.

 

[Jawehawk]

The problem with all these hi-tech AWD cars, is that the computers are essentially doing all the work. There's little to no skill involved in driving them fast. So hopefully, they won't replace MR/FR cars.

 

[TrackpadUser]

You can't deny the importance of the Nissan GTR. You can't say it is not the future when it is faster than almost any street car on the planet. I agree that RWD is more fun but AWD is here to stay.

The GT-R isn't faster because it is AWD, but because of the boatload of electronics in it that work properly with the AWD.

It's probably one of the few supercars built with track racing in mind and not just going fast that is AWD.

 

[NjLowrider]

I think the future is mid-engine all wheel drive. Like Audi r8

There is no better layout in my opinion.

Speaking of this I think when you look at drivetrain layout in gt5, there should be specific designations for mid engine awd and front engine awd, maybe even rear engine awd. (ruf)

m4wd, f4wd, r4wd

 

[iamjajo]

Read the current issue of Road & Track. The article about the current generation of Corvettes is eye opening. The C6 platform is showing its age, yet the Z06 posted an impressive time around Nurburgring.

I'm not a big fan of the Vette, but the way Chevorlet's engineers have applied a mix of mature and modern technologies is impressive.

In real life the Corvette suffers from the lack of bespoke components, but using off the shelf items from GM keeps the price down (compared to super cars). I didn't buy one because when sitting behind the wheel all I could think about was how much Impala I kept seeing.

And in keeping with the theme of the OP, I can't wait to see what Ralph Gilles does with the SRT Viper.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Clearly there is a shift to AWD models for performance vehicles. The Veyron, the NSX, the FF, every Lambo for the past 5+ years (save Balboni).

It just makes sense, especially great ideas like the DNX/BMW i8/NSX using petrol and electric motors, and Ferrari's front wheel system is just amazing. I have never driven it, but from what I saw and how it was explained on Top Gear, wow. Just wow.

It makes sense to increase acceleration through AWD systems, especially as we are moving away from top speed to lightweight/agility, and switching to more efficient systems (less big engines, more charging by turbo and super)

As a family member of mine just got a new MKZ, and the AWD system is interesting in how it works. So what does everyone think of these affects on the future GT series? May we ever see another MR Lambo? Other than junk we always see on the road, Mustangs, Vettes, Camaros, what other FRs are there? I know BRZ/FRZ, but for real high performance.

The gas/electric/hybrid thing is just a fad. It's not economically nor environmentally justifiable and once the shine wears off and the curtain is pulled back to reveal the wizard it'll never be anything more than a tiny minority of the car market at best. With nothing but whining from the engine it's not much fun to drive in GT5.

And when it comes to performance, I don't see a trend away from top speed, I see a trend towards everything getting better, from handling, to braking to top speed and I hope that is a trend that continues. These cars aren't supposed to make sense and I hope they never do as I don't want to go charging around Grand Valley East in a Ferrari, topping out at 240 kh/h at the finish line!!!