The Penalty System Needs A Revamp ASAP

[G.T.Ace]

So, I was really thrilled for the Suzuka race. My qualifying wasn't so well, but hey, 10 laps are a lot.
Excited to share the room with the one and only @amar212 , hoping I wouldn't embarrass myself.
Fought my way up to 7th, then this happened:


I mean, I could understand the system failing when you get pushed off-track, so it recognizes a shortcut that wasn't there,
but I didn't even leave the tarmac.
This REALLY shouldn't happen in the FIA races. I could tolerate this in a normal race, but not there.

Hope the new thread's okay, but this needs to be seen.

 

[1twojay]

I feel you man, this stuff happens almost every race and its very frustrating. The penalty for ramming someone off his driving line should be much harsher. A lot of drivers think that every corner is an opportunity to pass and either butt ram you or cut you off. Passing should only be done when the chance is available.

 

[Earth]

Wow that's awful. He came from 2 spots behind too, way out of control and you get the penalty?

Anyway this is a classic example of drivers dive-bombing you and T boning your door at the apex and giving you a 10-second penalty. Really inexcusable that it has not been patched and fixed.

 

[danthespam]

I’ve had the same kinda thing in both races pal, it’s a shame but I don’t know why I expected the fia races to be cleaner, I’m seriously frustrated at both races, qualified 3rd and 6th, finished 10th and 16th. I’m not the perfect driver, but I’d like to think I’d finish top half on average. Through little to no fault of my own I can’t... I know people keep saying qualifying is important and the system ‘is what it is’ and ‘avoid them if they come flying at you’ but, honestly I think lots of people are incredibly frustrated... I’ve gone from an sr of c to a over the past week and I can’t say I’ve seen any improvement in the sportsmanship, they’re just faster guys that punt you harder...

 

[zzz_pt]

I got a 10 sec penalty because a guy spun into my line on that exact chicane. I tried to be safe on the inside and even put my foot on the brakes as soon as I saw him sliding but nope. Got a 10 sec penalty and went the entire straight trying to get rid of it... It lasted for about 15 seconds because somehow sometimes the counted doesn't go down.



Seriously stupid. This needs to be patched indeed.

 

[daan]

Got a 10 sec penalty and went the entire straight trying to get rid of it... It lasted for about 15 seconds because somehow sometimes the counted doesn't go down.

You had 3 laps to get rid of it. You didn't need to lose it on the one straight.

 

[zzz_pt]

You had 3 laps to get rid of it. You didn't need to lose it on the one straight.

Yes, but my race was already done. from 11th to 5th and down to 15th. :/ The 10 sec penalty killed what was left of motivation to try and grab one or 2 more places.

The point is that the penalty shouldn't even exist in the first place.

 

[boroviack]

I agree, the system doesnt work how it should. But what would be your algorithm to judge whos fault it is? That system would be close to some TRUE AI, so I think polyphony, or any company, cant do much about it.

Still... sorry to inform you, but second situation is your fault. You should have left him space to go on the inside, he was there already, and you somehow decided to go with your normal race line -which was in collision with other car in that case Another topic is weather he would leave you space on the outer side at the exit, because he was probably going bit to fast to go tight there.

 

[zzz_pt]

I agree, the system doesnt work how it should. But what would be your algorithm to judge whos fault it is? That system would be close to some TRUE AI, so I think polyphony, or any company, cant do much about it.

Still... sorry to inform you, but second situation is your fault. You should have left him space to go on the inside, he was there already, and you somehow decided to go with your normal race line -which was in collision with other car in that case Another topic is weather he would leave you space on the outer side at the exit, because he was probably going bit to fast to go tight there.

He had space on the inside. Had he not spun, we would keep racing. Pause at 0:06 and see how much space there is on the left side of the track.

 

[GTWelsh]

I agree, the system doesnt work how it should. But what would be your algorithm to judge whos fault it is? That system would be close to some TRUE AI, so I think polyphony, or any company, cant do much about it.

Still... sorry to inform you, but second situation is your fault. You should have left him space to go on the inside, he was there already, and you somehow decided to go with your normal race line -which was in collision with other car in that case Another topic is weather he would leave you space on the outer side at the exit, because he was probably going bit to fast to go tight there.

I semi agree with this, it was a 50/50 (ish) if you ask me, given the angle we have. The only reason I say that is because your line was quite wide into the 2nd corner of the chicane, leaving a gaping hole, but if I was behind you I wouldn't of even gone for it, knowing there was a nice straight just after to draft. So, meh, racing incident, probably the guy behinds fault ultimately, the more I think about it.

Also after he was hit off the track the second time, that was lag, they teleported back on track shortly afterwards. I've not noticed any lag really so I think he's really unlucky there.

 

[wdreamsmaycome]

doesn't seem hard to do an algorithm along the lines of:

- each point in the track has an average expected speed, if you are 10% over that and you hit somebody it's automatically your fault
- each corner entry has an average position where people start braking, if you brake 5% after that and you hit somebody it's automatically your fault
- if you get back on the track from the grass, for the next 10 seconds if anybody hits you or you hit anybody, it's automatically your fault
- if you hit somebody and they hit somebody else, it's automatically your fault no matter what and both of the others don't get any penalties (because to hit somebody and cause them to hit somebody else you were having way excessive speed)
- if you hit somebody and they go off the track on the opposite side where you hit them, it's automatically your fault (because you didn't leave them any space)
- if after being hit and not being at fault (so fault of the other driver) you hit other people or go off into the grass absolutely no penalty for you, but additional penalties for the person at fault (so if you plow into the field, the only one getting penalties is you)

if this was done I think it would already solve a LOT of issues. You can't have it be perfect, I mean, even iRacing has people looking at racing incidents, but I think it should be possible to do better especially in obvious cases like you go off into the grass, come back on leaving me no way to avoid you and I get an orange SR, cmon...

 

[TCG]

Would an advanced overtaking course before you could enter sport mode solve a few of these issues?

Often it seems the offender and victim struggle with what is required for a clean pass. A series of challenges that create situations where you must judge when a clean pass is possible and when a clean pass is not possible and the correct lines to take AND KEEP during a pass and also identifying which corners are passing corners and which are not would go a long way.

Instead of just watching two pretty average videos, players should undergo an actual series of racing and passing tests and even obtain an online licence perhaps?

In so many of the videos I see being posted it is often a case of neither party truely understanding what their personal requirements are when a pass is being made and what to do during a passing situation. It may not be malice but just a lack of understanding that is causing so much frustration?

 

[G.T.Ace]

I agree, the system doesnt work how it should. But what would be your algorithm to judge whos fault it is? That system would be close to some TRUE AI, so I think polyphony, or any company, cant do much about it.

Still... sorry to inform you, but second situation is your fault. You should have left him space to go on the inside, he was there already, and you somehow decided to go with your normal race line -which was in collision with other car in that case Another topic is weather he would leave you space on the outer side at the exit, because he was probably going bit to fast to go tight there.

If you mean me: Watch the radar again, the car on my left wasn't the one crashing into me.
It's actually a written FIA rule, that the one who overtakes has the responsibility.
You can't just cut through the chicane with a car in front, everyone needs to turn in at some point.

 

[GTWelsh]

Would an advanced overtaking course before you could enter sport mode solve a few of these issues?

Often it seems the offender and victim struggle with what is required for a clean pass. A series of challenges that create situations where you must judge when a clean pass is possible and when a clean pass is not possible and the correct lines to take AND KEEP during a pass and also identifying which corners are passing corners and which are not would go a long way.

Instead of just watching two pretty average videos, players should undergo an actual series of racing and passing tests and even obtain an online licence perhaps?

In so many of the videos I see being posted it is often a case of neither party truely understanding what their personal requirements are when a pass is being made and what to do during a passing situation. It may not be malice but just a lack of understanding that is causing so much frustration?

Real life track experience, imo, is the only way (maybe not the only way, but it's a good lesson!) to get that feeling of "Man I really can't go into this guy" or "**** **** **** **** ****" (lol) on the game people just casually bump into people like it's nothing.

If you mean me: Watch the radar again, the car on my left wasn't the one crashing into me.
It's actually a written FIA rule, that the one who overtakes has the responsibility.
You can't just cut through the chicane with a car in front, everyone needs to turn in at some point.

Yeah even on bike trackdays we get told it's the guys behind job to get past cleanly, it (almost) doesn't matter what the guy infront is doing, if something goes wrong, its (almost) always your fault.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Not to mention that I can't keep my eyes focused on the radar, while driving a GT3-spec Mustang through a tight chicane, with other cars right in front of me.

 

[zzz_pt]

I semi agree with this, it was a 50/50 (ish) if you ask me, given the angle we have. The only reason I say that is because your line was quite wide into the 2nd corner of the chicane, leaving a gaping hole, but if I was behind you I wouldn't of even gone for it, knowing there was a nice straight just after to draft. So, meh, racing incident, probably the guy behinds fault ultimately, the more I think about it.

Also after he was hit off the track the second time, that was lag, they teleported back on track shortly afterwards. I've not noticed any lag really so I think he's really unlucky there.

Racing incident I can agree. But penalties are not given out for racing incidents. That's the point. How is it my fault that he spun? Really? Seriously. Please watch real life races at Suzuka and you'll see plenty of situations of 2 cars wide, overtaking while on the chicane. I did absolutely nothing to deserve that penalty.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Racing incident I can agree. But penalties are not given out for racing incidents. That's the point. How is it my fault that he spun? Really? Seriously. Please watch real life races at Suzuka and you'll see plenty of situations of 2 cars wide, overtaking while on the chicane. I did absolutely nothing to deserve that penalty.

They're not talking about you. We all agree it wasn't your fault.

 

[GTWelsh]

Racing incident I can agree. But penalties are not given out for racing incidents. That's the point. How is it my fault that he spun? Really? Seriously. Please watch real life races at Suzuka and you'll see plenty of situations of 2 cars wide, overtaking while on the chicane. I did absolutely nothing to deserve that penalty.

The spin was never your fault lol. The system is heavily flawed in that area for sure! Needs tweaking asap.

 

[boroviack]

If you mean me: Watch the radar again, the car on my left wasn't the one crashing into me.
It's actually a written FIA rule, that the one who overtakes has the responsibility.
You can't just cut through the chicane with a car in front, everyone needs to turn in at some point.

Yes, its about your video. Well, im not familiar with FIA rules word to word, but "one who overtakes takes responsibility" sounds irrelevant to that situation. Let me explain:

Lets assume that GTR's move was calculated. Car going behind you (GTR) has every right to delay braking in order to block your way to the apex of the corner. That is very legal move to do - they do it in F1 all the time. Thats one of basic strategies to change YOUR driving line in order to gain advantage.

In other words: He delayed braking and took the apex. You decided to go for the apex anyway - his car was there already, you went into collision with him -> your fault.

If someone takes apex without touching you, you need to deal with that, you cannot cut him off, you simply need to leave space and go wider in that corner. The fact that he was behind you before that corner, doesnt change anything. If someone is able to take apex faster means hes faster driver. If hes able to keep his advantage on the exit and after corner, thats another discussion.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Yes, its about your video. Well, im not familiar with FIA rules word to word, but "one who overtakes takes responsibility" sounds irrelevant to that situation. Let me explain:

Lets assume that GTR's move was calculated. Car going behind you (GTR) has every right to delay braking in order to block your way to the apex of the corner. That is very legal move to do - they do it in F1 all the time. Thats one of basic strategies to change YOUR driving line in order to gain advantage.

In other words: He delayed braking and took the apex. You decided to go for the apex anyway - his car was there already, you went into collision with him -> your fault.

If someone takes apex without touching you, you need to deal with that, you cannot cut him off, you simply need to leave space and go wider in that corner. The fact that he was behind you before that corner, doesnt change anything. If someone is able to take apex faster means hes faster driver. If hes able to keep his advantage on the exit and after corner, thats another discussion.

But I've already faced the apex, before he even showed up on the radar. Also, you have to turn in like that, otherwise you understeer into the grass.
Just look how I handled the Ferrari and Porsche there. I leave as much room as possible.

EDIT: Well, he was on the radar but there's no way in hell a pass like that would be approved in a real race.

Here's another example of a dumb penalty, from ResetEra:

This happens to you when there's contact and the other guy spins off the track. Here it is happening to me and the other car touches me so slightly you wouldn't even know there was contact:



Of course, this particular penalty algorithm is in need of work. It's not our fault these guys hit us and subsequently spun out.

 

[GTWelsh]

I don't know why it's being so strict with some of you lot, I got hit by this backmarker and got nothing :/

 

[G.T.Ace]

I don't know why it's being so strict with some of you lot, I got hit by this backmarker and got nothing :/

If he had spun, or left the track, you would've gotten a penalty.

 

[GTWelsh]

If he had spun, or left the track, you would've gotten a penalty.

Yeah that'll be it, good point.

 

[boroviack]

But I've already faced the apex, before he even showed up on the radar. Also, you have to turn in like that, otherwise you understeer into the grass.

That is exactly what happens. In that situation you had 3 possibilities:
1. Keep your speed and go into the grass - legal
2. Slow down to stay on track on the outside and lose position - also legal
3. Go for apex anyway, and ram your oponent into grass on the inside - super illegal

Lets turn the situation upside down, and ask the question different way: With your interpretation of rules - how would you overtake car in front of you mid corner on the inside? They will always run into you when going for apex! In your world cars can only overtake on straight, or on the outside corner, never inside. - that makes no sense, right?

Remember it doesnt matter if its long flat corner, or super tight sequence of chicanes. You cannot push car that is on the inside, never.

I know exactly the pain when you have to give-up on your perfect driving line, because opponent took apex first. But it is what it is. Thats just one of strategies.

 

[G.T.Ace]

I definitely wouldn't have accelerated to the inside in the mid of a chicane.
I didn't push him, he wasn't next to me when I turned in, he accelerated right into my car.

 

[boroviack]

I definitely wouldn't have accelerated to the inside in the mid of a chicane.
I didn't push him, he wasn't next to me when I turned in, he accelerated right into my car.

If you put it this way that he accelerated into the side of your car, that is obviously his fault. But to my eyes, he was just going on the inside and you didnt give up on your driving line hitting him. You let Ferrari and Porsche, but you didnt see third car there and you hit him. But at that point of discussion we will never agree, so lets leave it.

Just watch next F1 GP, you will see dozens of those situations when drivers are going late on brake to cut off opponents way to apex in order to ruin his driving line and gain advantage. Again that is standard driving strategy.

EDIT: Specially for you: Look how Ricciardo is overtaking Vettel @ 0:55

 

[Tekku]

It seems like the harshest penalty comes from the system thinking that you are intentionally ramming someone off the track. And currently it seems to think that of you a lot.

 

[R3V]

There's some inconsistency. I got pit manuevered in one of the daily races and got a 10s penalty for it. In today's Manufacturer's race I pushed someone off at turn 1/2 and got nothing.