The Point Of No Return!!!

[ViXeN]

OK, So some time last week I was watching Delphic Reason’s (Big shout out to you man) Positive Lock video and I came to a realisation, I realised so much at once that my drifting improved 10 fold almost instantly. So what was this realisation you ask? It’s complicated, so I’ll go over it below:

From watching Positive Lock I realised that DR’s wheels are always spinning and there’s always smoke coming from the back of them, even on low speed corners!!! So how is he doing this I asked myself, every time I have my wheels spinning like that I spin out… So I jumped in my 300ZX (Z31), my new fave drift machine, and headed off to Apricot Hill for a drift session and to try to drift like DR!!! Then it hit me, like a stoopid AI at a late breaking point, it hit me!!!

1. Every car has a “point of no return”, as I’ve come to call it, where countersteer and throttle are in perfect balance… where you basically drift an entire corner with the steering wheel still and the gas controlling the rest… The car has a “groove” it sits in, like when it’s leaning just right and slidin just right and it only takes minor adjustments to keep it there!!!
2. Brakes are SUCH an important part of drifting and the way they are set up can completely change the way you drift… I set my brakes up @ 3/6 for the first time ever and what came of it was outstanding!!! When I drifted into a turn too fast and applied the brakes softly, my angle remained constant yet my speed dropped… I could use the brakes to scrub off speed now, whereas with my previous setting of 10/15 my cars angle would be completely changed at the slightest touch of the brakes and I’d “Stall”… Now I had to stand on the brakes to change the angle… BRILLIANT!!!
3. This third realisation pieced the 1 and 2 together… And that was exactly it, 1 and 2 go hand in hand with one another… When you combine the “point of no return” and the right brakes setup and technique you have the most awesome drifting experience EVER!!!

I can’t tell you how much better I am drifting now, or perhaps I can? For the first time EVER, I successfully drifted and linked every corner on Deep Forest for 3 consecutive laps… I linked the last 2 corners with a beautiful Manji down the second last straight… I completely linked the last 2 turns in one drift on Midfield reverse… I have a video of this, but it’s 450MB. (I still have to figure out this whole video making and compression thing.)

Lemme say finally, to all the drift noobs out there who post about all sorts of drifting problems, I’ve been drifting now for around 8 months and it’s only hit me now!!! I’ve been practicing and practicing for 8 months and it’s only hit me NOW!!!

I'd like to hear from a few of the "greats" on my discovery or realisation... What are your comments? Did it happen to you like this? If not, how'd it happen to you?

I want guys like Boundry Layer, nighkidsforever, Delphic Reason and girls like Droptop Chick to comment on this!!!

 

[d3p0]

I probably started to realize that when I was still playing around @ the gymkhana course. Its somewhat counter-intuitive because, for the most part, you aren't in counter-steer while you are at full throttle. However, the game got one thing right, less steering = better drift.

In GT4 you basically just set the drift with steering and let the throttle do the rest, which is true to life, except in GT4 you don't usually need to hold the counter.

 

[Ske]

I use the steering more actively to balance my angle and extend drifts (which may be a bad technique after all, I have major trouble with some double apexes) and my brakes as a tool to quickly increase angle to set up/maintain a long feint or "predrift" as I call it (sliding in the same direction as the corner for a while before the actual turn)... or just nudge around a second tight apex. This works for me so far, but what you (and BL) are saying makes sense... I've usually set up my brakes from 3/8 to 3/14 though dependent on suspension setup and car, so it's not far from what you're trying now. Going more neutral sort of makes lift/brake drifts harder though.. and I'm using those a lot these days, especially useful in tight spots as you can get instant high angle without needing space to feint out.

I'll try setting up my brakes to allow me to drift neutrally while using the throttle to control angle, and see if I "feel it"

The "point of no return" is definitely something I can feel, but I tend to control it using slight steering inputs and more constant throttle to try and utilize the sometimes narrow powerband of the cars I've been drifting lately. Turning in very slightly while drifting really works beautifully to increase angle, but throttle control is needed to decrease it for me. Which technique to use probably differs according to power band, angle and whether I need to slow down or accelerate, but what works works

 

[ViXeN]

Going more neutral sort of makes lift/brake drifts harder though.. and I'm using those a lot these days, especially useful in tight spots as you can get instant high angle without needing space to feint out.

That's true, But I find I get smoother drifts using feinting and not brake drifting, I alkso get better speed into the drift which helps extend the drift. Just for example, I drifted the lest 2 bends on Midfield reverse 3 times in a row on the weekend... I've never been able to do that link... I can drift the first 2 turns on Grandvalley short reverse every time... Apricot Hill every time... It's like someone injected DRIFT into me and all of a sudden I'm drifting like a goddess...!!!

 

[Funkshen]

Well Vixen, BRAG ON!!... nah im joking, sounds like your having fun.

Your first point to me sounds that your "Point of no return", is Just a good line and precise steering and throttle inputs.

(You guys have never seen my skills, so its not my place to say). But my Skills never hit me in a "Bang". It came in Gradual steps, and it took a long time to get the hang of. But we all have our good days and bad days, and on the good days it seems that i have gained much skill,
Then a day later, i cannot concour links i was performing previously.

 

[ViXeN]

Yes and at the same time no...

"the point of no return" is a feeling that comes from precise steering and throttle inputs... But it has a lot to do with the car as well...

What happened before my realisation was also another far out event... I bought a Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83 and took it to Apricot Hill... i set it up like this:
Tyres N3
Brakes 3\6
Tranny 6
Spring Rate 8.0 \ 6.0
Ride Height 110 \ 120
Damper Bounce 8 \ 4
Damper Rebound 9 \ 5
Camber 3.0 \ 1.0
Stabiliser 7 \ 3
Downforce 0

LSD 30 \ 50 \ 20

Now the amazing thing about this is, this was the first setup I used, I kinda just guessed what it may have been and it worked... First time I've ever got the perfect setup on the first attempt.

So I was at Apricot Hill and pull out for my first lap, and vuola, I linked the first 2 corners first time... Then pulled out and linked the next 3... I nearly hit the roof from excitment...

Now, it seems as if I'll never return to being the average drifter I was, who understood all the concepts of drifting, but couldn't actually pull them all off... THAT is the POINT OF NO RETURN!!!

 

[Ske]

To me that point is where you sort of "lock" the car and feel like you could slide the car forever without losing speed... and it's definitely a stepping stone for mastering turns like the circles @ george V and autumn ring, and to get 100% consistent with NY, SS5 etc.

There's nothing like the feeling of drifting wide arcs forever and ever.. I've caught myself trying to take some of those turns slower to see just how much time I can spend locked in one turn

 

[Droptop_Chick]

It's already been said. Less steeering and more emphasis on throttle control will produce a more consistant and controlable drift. Given you can give the right inputs of course. Realisticly if you wanted to maintain speed with your desired degree of angle, it'd be the best approach to focus on minimal steering work as a form of initiation (entry) and recovery (exit). With a good balance of brakes suspension, and driver inputs, you should be able to zero-counter pretty much any turn. Those are the essential basics of AWD drifting. Putting more emphasis in how your car shifts weight based on throttle input is where I put my priorities in tuning suspension. I find that generally a softer rear spring rate will produce a gradual lift-off drift effect during your drift. The longer you let off the gas during a drift, the higher your angle can become without increasing your countersteer. It also makes it easier to stop gaining angle when you feel you've reached the limit as you can re-load the front suspension with a quick blip of the gas. Let the force of the weight shift do the work for you. This is something I've been trying to get better at so my countersteer looks less wobbly with the D-Pad, so I'm trying to keep my countersteering to a minimum.

I'm sure someone will pop in here and say zero-counter isn't a drift it's a powerslide. You try doing it while effectively holding the speed, line, and angle you want, and come back and tell me that kind of rotation is a powerslide. If you still say it's a powerslide, you're either ignorant, or just not doing it right. Straight up, less countersteer = less resistance. Less resistance = more overall control of what's going on with the car. You're able to dictate what happens by manipulating the brakes and throttle more effectively.

 

[Bryan C.]

OK, So some time last week I was watching Delphic Reason’s (Big shout out to you man) Positive Lock video and I came to a realisation, I realised so much at once that my drifting improved 10 fold almost instantly. So what was this realisation you ask? It’s complicated, so I’ll go over it below:

Hex vixen, I am glad that you had this realization, because to me this has kind of been a duh since I first started drifting, in fact on most high and mid-speed corners I do drifting you will see smoke coming from both front AND rear tires, becuase I push the car so terribly hard the front tires smoke, its a balance, or as the strange Inital D fans might call a "Four Wheel Drift", where all four wheels lose grip almost instantaneously, causing the car to be balance perfectly, allowing you to control the angle with the brake, gas, steering, etc, and also makes it extremely easy to link corners. I always just assumed this was what every1 was doing until one day Shadow Drifter sat down and watched one of my videos and made a comment to me "That is absolutely amazing that you can do that.", and when I asked him what, he said "That you can four wheel drift and make it look so effortless. That's a technique alot of people will never master." And this coming from a guy who goes to every AutoX and drift event anywhere near him.

That was when I began to study exactly what my drift techniques were, because up until that point, I was driving by feel, doing whatever I felt I needed to do to make the car do what I wanted and keep it crazy. Ironically, once I knew what I was doing, I paid far too much attention to it and it took me months to get back to where I used to be, but now that I know exactly what I Am doing, it also allowed me to drift better in GT4, and allowed me to better understand drifting as a whole, and I began to take my Corolla out to the track just to screw around, and ended up passing alot of really tuned up cars sliding sideways in a stock SR5 (shut up Intial D freaks, yes I said a stock SR5), all because of one comment Shadow Drifter said to me.

Glad to see you finally found your epiphany

 

[Thotozam AZ-1]

i need to try the 3/6 brake setup...ive always used about 6/12 but normally differs car car to car, so now the bit decision...
procrastinate more on my history project and leave it to the last day or spend the rest of today drifting.........

oh and i think i have stumbled upon the point of no return in my autozam a few times (like the deep forest hairpin, all the way around in a really small 123 hp car) but i had no idea how to do it again, just came by accident

 

[Boundary Layer]

this topic is a bit different than what i thought it'd be from the title...

Glad to hear about your discovery Vixen.

What you've uncovered for yourself with the brakes is something I've done for awhile (and recently posted about in the DSJ: Vol 1 thread). I set my brakes exactly as you have described, so that if I apply my brakes with the back end swung out my angle will not change. I do it by taking the car on a wide straight (Seoul works well), slide the car fully perpendicular to the straight and then return the steering to neutral. I fiddle with the brake bias until I can apply them with the car in this state and not notice a change in trajectory/rotation.

This setup makes drifts so much easier to control IMO (partly b/c I've become accustomed to such a setup and my technique relflects it). It allows you to scrub speed with brakes while at full opposite lock and not spinning yourself out.
I know D3P0 thinks the setup is limiting, and I agree with him in the way he laid things out earlier in the DSJ. But really, you're only limited when your setup does not allow you to utilize your technique to its fullest. This is the brake setup I need.


as for the rest... I'm curious why you'd call it a point of no return? On my first stumble through the thread I thought it would be something about the maximum recoverable angle for a car...
anyways, thats beside the point.

Whatever you want to call it, I get what you're talking about.
The balance changes from corner to corner though - and to complicate it more, there's more than one way to balance steering to throttle for a given corner. How you attain an appropriate balance depends heavily upon the corner radius, and your drift angle. Additionally it will depend on the available grip, power and gearing, and your entry speed and line.
So there's a lot of ways to do it.

I had some understanding of this just through physics and common sense, but it's something I still struggle to obtain in many of my drifts on the DS2 (make that 90% of my drifts if I'm on the DFP). I guess I don't have the same motor control skills as some people do. I quite often get close to this balance, and then blip the throttle a slight amount or flick my steering as I meander from one side of this balance to the other. I'd rather be able to just hold everything where it is and get through the turn - but this happens less than 5% of the time for me.


...thinking
I wonder for a given car setup on a given corner if some function exists between the entry speed, throttle % and steering % required to maintain angle. ...I mean, I know that there is necessarily some relation there, but it'd be interesting to try and define it.

That might be difficult, i hate function of 3 variables.
Maybe a ratio between throttle % and steering % for a given velocity, corner, and car...
gymkhana pylon circle might be a good spot to play with this idea.... Time to setup the DFP.

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Wow TS, your so cool lol. You mean with a function like.....Y=B*C? Dont mind the letters lol, or the * hehe, I suck at functions but thats what you mean by functions rite?

Keep us updated dude!!!

As for ViXeN's discovery, I pretty much know what all settings are and what to do ad what you should avoid at all costs, but I still dont really know wich things REALLY WORK OUT good
Although I drifted since even before GT4 came out, I'm still very thankfull for these tips. I'm pretty motivated now lol, I'm gonna try it out now:tup: Cause I really recognize the angle problem when you brake. One touch and my angle increases rapidly.

A BIG THHHHAAANNNNKKKKKSSS!

Edit: TS, I rememer you told me this style you got just recently. It kinda got me puzzled and wondered if I could do the same drifting. I couldn't but I WILL TRY NOW FOR SHURE with these settings:tup: You too, thanks.

Edit 2, because of Bryan C: I guess you already knew you were going to puzzle some peple with this post. HOW ON EARTH DO YOU DRIFT THEN>?!?!!! When I saw your pictures in your poll you made 5 weeks ago or somethin, I saw you had insane angle, I tried it too but just couldn't finish the corner, I just bumped the inside.

Damn you, tell me your secret
Just something like: Entry speed, BHP on your average cars, C/S and throttle control.
Just gotta say if it's much or not much like:
Entry speed: MUCH, VERY HIGH (I dunno I'm just making somethin up now)
BHP: MUCH, 400BHP average
C/S: MUCH, full lock
Throttle control: MUCH, very delicate with the throttle....

Just tell me a'ight lol

 

[Ske]

C/S: MUCH, full lock
Throttle control: MUCH, very delicate with the throttle....

If you wanna hold big angles, i think you might be better off "sawing" slightly with the steering wheel to sort of crawl your way through the corner in a four wheel drift... Smooth inputs only work up to a certain angle. At least that's how it works for me, but I'm no expert at big angle drifts... Pulsating the throttle also helps.

Think of it as rapidly alternating between under and oversteer to propel yourself forward.. and you could basically control almost 90 degrees of drift for a while. Whether you regain control or not, that's another question

 

[Boundary Layer]

^^

works for me. That's what I'm talking about here:

I quite often get close to this balance, and then blip the throttle a slight amount or flick my steering as I meander from one side of this balance to the other.

I think the problem is that the closer the car becomes to its absolute sideways limits (for lack of any better terminology), the more sensitive it becomes to slight slight adjustment of inputs.


So what I suppose I'm saying is that I don't know if smooth inputs work at high angles... I'd like to think that they should... I just don't see why they wouldnt if you can be exact about it.
I think establishing the balance that has been discussed in this thread just becomes harder to attain at high angles for the idea suggested in the previous paragraph. You're walking a much finer line.

The higher the angle, the more volatile the cars handling becomes. Fogive me if this seems at all inaccurate to anyone - I've been working on a dynamics assignment for 9 hours and my brain has gone to mush.

 

[d3p0]

BHP: MUCH, 400BHP average
C/S: MUCH, full lock
Throttle control: MUCH, very delicate with the throttle....

Hm, just because a car has high power (say 450+) doesn't mean that you should take it easy with the throttle. You might take a look at your setups, the car should be controlable at full throttle once the drift angle is 'set'.

 

[kiukiu]

Very true d3po. I tried to tune up the Monaro for higher BHP and found it harder to drift compared to stock.

G-T-4-FAN are u refering to things like this?





I think it's more technique and car setup than just BHP coz as u can see, the Cappucinno can do that as well. For me I usually just let the angle increase itself before I do any correction. Usually once I'm ready, I just nudge the car to a neutral feel so it can finish the corner by itself... and yeah lots of throttle...

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Hm, just because a car has high power (say 450+) doesn't mean that you should take it easy with the throttle. You might take a look at your setups, the car should be controlable at full throttle once the drift angle is 'set'.

I just randomly said something. I hope to get the RIGHT advice though.

The pictures: well they're very nice but damn.....the pic I refer to was like IMPOSSIBLE.
I really like the MR2 pictures cause they got front wheel smoke too:tup:

But I'm gonna look for the picture I meant....it was sooo insane It was an orange S2000 on Special Stage Route from Bryan C in one of his poll threads. The poll was about how you judged yourself as a drifter....

Edit: Yes I searched and found them, it's a red Nissan Z, sorry Anyway read the post here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1825491&postcount=53

 

[telfer]

i better show u a drift video of me hey, if u just discovered u need your brakes to change direction i say well done genius! me n my mate were drifitng for real and i saw the corner coming up and were full lock going left tap the brakes and swung her the other way, my mate was impressed. DER COMMON SENSE! apply brake u apply tension to the road through the front FUGING WHEELS THERE FOR TURNING YOU!

 

[Bryan C.]

Edit 2, because of Bryan C: I guess you already knew you were going to puzzle some peple with this post. HOW ON EARTH DO YOU DRIFT THEN>?!?!!! When I saw your pictures in your poll you made 5 weeks ago or somethin, I saw you had insane angle, I tried it too but just couldn't finish the corner, I just bumped the inside.

Damn you, tell me your secret
Just something like: Entry speed, BHP on your average cars, C/S and throttle control.
Just gotta say if it's much or not much like:
Entry speed: MUCH, VERY HIGH (I dunno I'm just making somethin up now)
BHP: MUCH, 400BHP average
C/S: MUCH, full lock
Throttle control: MUCH, very delicate with the throttle....

Just tell me a'ight lol

on that corner, you gotta remember there is a slight right just before it, I purposely over accelerate the first corner, throwing the car to what looks like an out-of control state, and come flying out, shake the car once maintaining that speed and just throw it kamikaze into the corner, its just about knowing your car and what it can and/or cant do. I think alot of people's problem is they dont realy ITS NOT A BIG DEAL IF YOU HIT THE WALL. Its a game, its ot like ur gonna cost $,6000 with of body damage to your car if yo hit the wall, so just f*ing go for it, press the gas pedal, go crazy, and see what you can do, thats what drifting is all about.

 

[ViXeN]

Sup people...

I love what this thread has become, a good discussion about drifting techniques...

Sadly, I've been blocked from GTP by my work @ the firewall, so my access will be extremely limited... This topic will prolly die before I can get back on...

Keep at it guys, Keep drifting.

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Thanks bryan:tup: Lol yes you got a point there, I think I dont do that kamikaze kinda stuff. And when I do it I usually fail and stop immediatly. Seeing your pictures again might make me try more than once.

Cause offcourse learning comes with experience:tup:

 

[rsmithdrift]

You guys over analyze this stuff so much it amazes me.

Here's what I do: I drive............SIDEWAYS. That is all there is to it.


Just balance the car out, learn some throttle control and get creative with your lines. That is all I'm thinking of while I drift. And not only that but I think that out ahead of time, when I'm doing it I'm watching the road and giving 100% attention to it. If you take the time to think about anything else you have already wrecked or spun out. Everything else just comes naturally for me.

Although, on the braking thing, this game is different than the rest, you have to know when and how hard, AND WITH WHAT MOMENTUM to hit them to get the desired effect. Again, a few laps and that comes naturally as well.

Do I have to say it again?? Just drive the MF'er and have some fun in the process.

The best advice I could possibly give any Nooby to drifting is to give 100% attention to the road, NOT THE CAR!!!!! If you are paying attention to the car, you aren't paying enough attention to where you're going and you will go to the wrong place, like..... off the track.

Drifting is mostly just getting the line right, then the sideways part is easy. I am a pro at making things easy for myself.

 

[rsmithdrift]

Oh, yeah. Forgot to add.

GO OLD SCHOOL 300zx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!unk:

Need I say it. I rock the z31 sideways on a daily basis. Poor 21 year old clutch.

 

[Boundary Layer]

i better show u a drift video of me hey, if u just discovered u need your brakes to change direction i say well done genius! me n my mate were drifitng for real and i saw the corner coming up and were full lock going left tap the brakes and swung her the other way, my mate was impressed. DER COMMON SENSE! apply brake u apply tension to the road through the front FUGING WHEELS THERE FOR TURNING YOU!

actually telfer, you've got it completely bass-ackwards.

Vixen's discovery was all about being able to use brakes mid-drift without changing line, only scrubbing speed. She came to the realization that braking in this manner allows her to make much more fluid drifts with minimal variation to her steering and throttle input.

so I say well done genius...

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

Lol TS Just stop telfer he's going through a (VERY DIFFICULT DEMANDING!) engeneer study It's like when TS changed his name he's like ubepro in drift physics.

👍 to you!

Then my next thing I gotta say (wich basically has nothing to do with the brake stuff) I LINKED APRICOT HILL FROM THE VERY FIRST CORNERS TO THE END OF THE LONG TURN< first taking that pretty difficult 2 in 1 corner at the start, then come out of that soooo late that I could directly link into the coming right corner wich links to left and right again and SSOMEHOW got enough speed to drift the very light left hand corner, flip back and take it into my link for the VERY long turn.

All with my wonderfull Lexus IS200!!! Or something like it..... Now dont expect it was really smooth, it was like VERY EDGY I got a very stupid exit after the long turn lol but I still finished it

 

[Bryan C.]

Oh, yeah. Forgot to add.

GO OLD SCHOOL 300zx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!unk:

Need I say it. I rock the z31 sideways on a daily basis. Poor 21 year old clutch.

hey man, ur in Chatt.? I'm in Ringgold about 20 mins from there, sweet! lol. might have to hang out, toss back a few beers (if ur of age), etc. show this punks how its done. Do a little side-by-side drifting when I get my DFP

 

[kiukiu]

LOL.... I'll have to redo my tuning. I definitely need to scrub off speed without changing my lines and my setting is done so that when I apply brake, I usually increase the angle more... :S Oh G-T-4-Fan, that's not an MR2. It's a Lotus Elise 111R. I saw what you mean from Bryan C's pic. Those are extreme, but it's very dependent on the corner. If you have a long curvy corner, you can't go that angle unless you're talking bout manji. Mostly to get smokes out of the front tyres would mainly be to push the car to the extreme. That's what I did with the Lotus. The front was sliding outward so I have to correct the line with my angle and throttle.

 

[ViXeN]

Reviving an old topic here... But only to add punch to my point...

I've been out of action for about 8 months now, no drifting for 8 months... Got back in the seat the other day and found myself still drifting like a queen... it's as if the revelation I had was perminent,,, hehehe...

Sure, I'm a little rusty, but I can still pull off double apexes and links like nothing...

Forgot how much fun drifting was...

 

[Gen.]

Hey, I was wondering where you had disappeared to, like all the other regulars around here...

 

[G.T]

Hey, I was wondering where you had disappeared to, like all the other regulars around here...

I think she could only post at work, until her work blocked GTP from being accessible...