The SHIFT physics thread

[vr6wantsr20det]

The physics have a "realistic/sim" idea behind them, but the cars feel far from realistic (so far) I just bought a Tier 4 Zonda R that feels GREAT, but still not realistic. I still don't feel connected with the cars/roads/courses like i would in Live for Speed or even GT5p for that matter. I hope they come out with a patch. I find myself getting faster times by barreling and sliding around the turns and just throwing the car around than having to keep a proper race line.

Like when you feel like you will not make the turn "understeer" just throw the wheel and turn the wheel even further and the car comes around every time, no problem. I find it FUN because it's still challenging, but i would NOT consider this a SIM, or even in the ball park. I had some friends come over who are Live for Speed Enthusiasts, and after 3-4 laps with a few cars in Shift we all agreed to go back to Live for speed. I'm still playing it, as i enjoy the challenge, but i would NOT recommend this game to anyone who is looking for a SIM or realistic drive.

The lag in the Throttle/Clutch/Shift delay is just stupid and takes away from the feel, response and behavior of the cars and especially when trying to Modulate the throttle, what a joke. But it's still Fun, whoever calls this a Sim needs to play Live for Speed, even Gt5p is closer than Shift.

The feeling of speed and movement in cockpit works well, and there are a lot of great tracks and layouts, but the physics need to be changed/improved to really bring out the best in this game. EA get to it. 👍

 

[skazz]

I tried the PC demo with my DFGT and it was no where near as good as the PS3 version with that wheel.

The graphic were better, the damage is better but a lot of slow down at the start of a race when all the AI cars are on screen.

What you are describing is a PC which is the problem, not the wheel, obviously.

 

[F1KimiFreak]

Anyone knows the specifications needed to play shift on the pc?

 

[MowTin]

I think this game is so far from arcade that it's totally wrong to call it simcade.

Shift does so many things right. CCP214 did a great job listing them. Mind you I've only played the PC demo. But the FFB blows GT5P out of the water. And everyone knows about the sound.

I used to hear people complain about the sound in GT5 but I didn't know what they were talking about. Then I heard the Zonda in Shift. Or even the GTR. Totally different league in terms of sound.

I love the way the cars shake at speed. In GT5 and yes in LFS they are just way too under control and easy to drive at high speeds. Even when I drive my car over 100 mph on an interstate I start to feel a challenge keeping it straight.

London in Shift versus London in GT5P is no camparison. Shift hands down. You can really feel the curbs in Shift. Your car feels heavy. Your tires feel like they're rubber. You car tilts and skips convincingly. You don't get that in GT5P. I hate London in GT5P because the curbs feel so awful and flat and you the cars feel too light.

My opinion is that GT5P physics is actually harder than real life. When I take a Ferrari on the Daytona road course I know it can't be this hard in real life. No sane human being would ever attempt anything as dangerous in real life.

I think in GT5P the cars at speed slide too much. I feel that for non-formula cars in GT5P it is harder than in LFS to turn at turn and accelerate off the turn.

Also I don't think IRL you slip that much on grass. I like how in Shift grass is not ice.

So I think Shift is a little too forgiving at high speeds but GT5P is a little too unforgiving. GT5P has more subtle physics and is more challenging. But I think Shift is just as close to reality just on the opposite side.

The big knock on Shift is the HORRIBLE COLLISION PHYSICS. Plowing through cars is just awful it makes me cringe. And I don't mind having very forgiving damage but if you slam into a wall at 150mph your race should be over. The damage needs another level after full.

Overall, I prefer Shift to GT5P. I never liked the fake cars and awful graphics of LFS.

For me Shift is the new king of the hill. What it lacks in challenging physics it makes up in immersion through graphics and sound.

And you should see how amazing the Zonda interior looks on the PC.

Edit: Also I suspect the replay system is just poor and doesn't really reflect the physics. GT5P replays are leagues better.

 

[Biggles]

I think this game is so far from arcade that it's totally wrong to call it simcade.

I wonder if you'll feel that way after you've played it a bit more.

As Vr6wants said:

when you feel like you will not make the turn "understeer" just throw the wheel and turn the wheel even further and the car comes around every time, no problem

There are lots of good things about Shift as CPP pointed out, but I don't think it was really intended as a full-on sim.

I just went back to racing the BMW 135i - the first car I drove in Shift - & for whatever reason, it seems to be one of the more difficult cars to drive, which I think is part of the reason I was so impressed with Shift at first. Keeping it under control around the Ring is actually quite tricky. Any other cars that are more demanding to drive?

 

[myke6699]

I wonder if you'll feel that way after you've played it a bit more.

As Vr6wants said:



There are lots of good things about Shift as CPP pointed out, but I don't think it was really intended as a full-on sim.

I just went back to racing the BMW 135i - the first car I drove in Shift - & for whatever reason, it seems to be one of the more difficult cars to drive, which I think is part of the reason I was so impressed with Shift at first. Keeping it under control around the Ring is actually quite tricky. Any other cars that are more demanding to drive?

The way I play this game is to have one car that's all tricked up for racing and the rest I kept them stock or very close to it. If there's any upgrade it's usually to the drivetrain, brakes (level 1or 2) and tires. I would upgrade the cockpit but that doesn't affect the performance. And these (stock) are the cars I enjoy driving. The best ones I found so far:

-Porsche Cayman- anyone who feels that the cars in SHIFT floats should try this car. Hopefully with the G25 and the FFB set to max.

-Audi R8- again stock but with Level 3 tire upgrade and brakes.

-McLaren F1- I'm pretty sure there's no available upgrade for this car but just remember to turn the ABS off for this one.

-The S2000 is a tricky car to drive but it's probably due to the higher than normal torque listed.

-Koenigsegggggg CCX- this and Donington GP

And the best track to test out the cars- Ebisu (the longer version).

 

[Hun200kmh]

Well, last night I finally started to do some racing (first night was basically for hotlapping in the ring).

And ... this is not racing. So, adding to unrealistic physics, now I have to put up with destruction derby AI cars?

Ok, this is NFS after all.

I'm inches away from shelving it like I did with GRID and never looking back.

I want/need a proper racer, not this. 👎 👎 👎

 

[Blitz187]

Well, last night I finally started to do some racing (first night was basically for hotlapping in the ring).

And ... this is not racing. So, adding to unrealistic physics, now I have to put up with destruction derby AI cars?

Ok, this is NFS after all.

I'm inches away from shelving it like I did with GRID and never looking back.

I want/need a proper racer, not this. 👎 👎 👎

Unless they patch things up I will probably only be using this game to get my Ring "fix" until GT5 comes out and I can take the SLS out on the Ring

 

[red7]

My mustang cobra now has over 760hp and It still won't spin over 100 mph. They've maimed this game with some form of TC built into the physics that you can't switch off.👎 You can spin around up until about 70 mph. Over that the TC kicks in and your now a "slot" car as someone put it.

 

[Biggles]

The way I play this game is to have one car that's all tricked up for racing and the rest I kept them stock or very close to it. If there's any upgrade it's usually to the drivetrain, brakes (level 1or 2) and tires. I would upgrade the cockpit but that doesn't affect the performance. And these (stock) are the cars I enjoy driving. The best ones I found so far:

There was lots of discussion about what tires to drive on in GT5P to make the experience more "realistic". With Shift, the question is, given that the cars are "too easy" to drive in stock form, why would you want to upgrade them?

I haven't done any upgrades yet, partly because I'm trying to get the most "sim" for my money out of this game, , but I would like to know: if you add upgrades to a car, can you remove them when you want to?

 

[Mad Matt]

Thanks to the many contributors to this thread as it's started to give me a good idea of whether to buy the game or not.

One thing I'm worried about is this talk of cars becoming unstable at speeds of around 100mph plus. This sounds a little exaggerated. Even an old Citroen ZX was stable on roads of motorway quality at those speeds! Obviously the front can become a bit light or you get a bit of wobble/shake if your tracking/balancing is out but not much more.

Does the game exaggerate this for effect or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

 

[Blitz187]

There was lots of discussion about what tires to drive on in GT5P to make the experience more "realistic". With Shift, the question is, given that the cars are "too easy" to drive in stock form, why would you want to upgrade them?

I haven't done any upgrades yet, partly because I'm trying to get the most "sim" for my money out of this game, , but I would like to know: if you add upgrades to a car, can you remove them when you want to?

Yup you can sell parts back for the price you bought them....

 

[Biggles]

yup you can sell parts back for the price you bought them....

But you can just switch back & forth between upgraded version & stock version?

Thanks to the many contributors to this thread as it's started to give me a good idea of whether to buy the game or not.

One thing I'm worried about is this talk of cars becoming unstable at speeds of around 100mph plus. This sounds a little exaggerated. Even an old Citroen ZX was stable on roads of motorway quality at those speeds! Obviously the front can become a bit light or you get a bit of wobble/shake if your tracking/balancing is out but not much more.

Does the game exaggerate this for effect or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

I have not encountered "weird" instability at high speed, but I haven't driven a lot of the high-powered cars yet. There are certainly a lot of nice cars in Tier 1 & 2 to drive anyway. CPP listed all the pluses with this game, I would say the only serious negative with this game is that the physics are not as sim as you might like.

 

[jjaisli]

...I would say the only serious negative with this game is that the physics are not as sim as you might like.

Well, we all know you're a big fan of the 'aggression points'.

 

[niky]

It's not some weird instability... besides the bumpiness glitch... it's just the fact that the controls are so twitchy that you can go off the road the wrong way if you so much as sneeze over a bump.

Going to try to get some more wheel time tomorrow... it sucks to be in the middle of the working week and wanting to get a fix but not having the time for it...

 

[Blitz187]

Quote:
yup you can sell parts back for the price you bought them....

Quote:
But you can just switch back & forth between upgraded version & stock version?

Sorry Biggles... Misread that.. unfortunately you cant just switch... you need to sell all your upgrades to get it stock again...

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

And the best track to test out the cars- Ebisu (the longer version).[/QUOTE]

Thats funny i also use the Ebisu (east) i think the long version as my test course when i get a new car, it has a lot of variation and elevation changes.

My biggest complaint is the lag/hesitation in the CLUTCH/Gear-changing/Throttle inputs. I feel like the Heal-toe does Nothing and because of the lag in respose it can easily upset the balance of the cars going into a turn, and modulating the throttle through the turn. Shifting like i do in LFS or GT5p it turns out into almost a Power-Shift in NFS-Shift because by the time the clutch/gear catch's up with the throttle, the rpms are already raised so when it engages on a snappy car the rear-end wants to come around (but is easily controlled). I find myself having to change gears slow, waiting to hear the (Clunk/Grind) sound of the next gear engaging before i get on the throttle which should not be so. 👎

 

[NLxAROSA]

Sorry Biggles... Misread that.. unfortunately you cant just switch... you need to sell all your upgrades to get it stock again...

Sell car with upgrades -> Buy new stock car, is faster.

 

[Mad Matt]

Thanks for the replies. Having decided to skip SCC and stick with FC until GT5, I'm now torn over this game. It sounds like fun so I'll probably try and borrow it from a mate first.

 

[Jay]

Well I have played the PC demo a bit and so far the physics 'feel' better than I expected, seem rather easy and basic to keep control to be honest but ok. I will put more time into it.

 

[Biggles]

It's not some weird instability... besides the bumpiness glitch... it's just the fact that the controls are so twitchy that you can go off the road the wrong way if you so much as sneeze over a bump.

Yes, the controls are twitchy & it feels as if you can go off the road at any moment, but generally you don't. That's the weird thing about Shift: good FFB without the corresponding underlying physics. The twitching & bumping don't really cause you to lose grip for the most part, even though it feels like you do.

Thanks for the replies. Having decided to skip SCC and stick with FC until GT5, I'm now torn over this game. It sounds like fun so I'll probably try and borrow it from a mate first.

It's a tough call. I myself have not picked up SCC, partly because it's not even available in NA. Shift seems like a better investment because of all the great new tracks & all the other good things it comes with. But I still can't decide if the physics are good enough to make it all worthwhile. I'm still seeking out the right combination of cars/tracks to offer the best sim experience for online racing, as the handling characteristics vary so much between the different cars.

At the minute the stock BMW 135i/Nordschliefe seems to offer the best experience from my perspective - the handling seems fairly reminiscent of Enthusia, although it's still a lot harder to lose it than in Enthusia - on the other hand the graphics & sound are vastly better than Enthusia.

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

Yes, the controls are twitchy & it feels as if you can go off the road at any moment, but generally you don't. That's the weird thing about Shift: good FFB without the corresponding underlying physics. The twitching & bumping don't really cause you to lose grip for the most part, even though it feels like you do.

depending on the car/set-up/track at times it can feel like you're hitting the switches on the hydraulics and the front/back start bouncing up and down like you're in a low-rider contest and understeer or fly off the road...which is why i can suck when you cannot change the settings Between a series race/event.

 

[devildog666]

I have not encountered "weird" instability at high speed, but I haven't driven a lot of the high-powered cars yet. There are certainly a lot of nice cars in Tier 1 & 2 to drive anyway. CPP listed all the pluses with this game, I would say the only serious negative with this game is that the physics are not as sim as you might like.

When you have played the game long enough you will encounter the NFS:Shift Bounce. Then that will become your serious negative. Also I have an over 900hp Works Murcielago that couldn't do 160mph at Spa on the straight after Eau Rouge unless you removed all of the downforce. My Works Mustang weighs more, has stock downforce settings and has over 800HP but does 162mph on the same straight. Removing the downforce on the Lambo doesn't change the way the car handles by the way. Those are just some of the problems in this buggy [supposed to be Sim] but fun game.

 

[FLASH48]

I like the physics in this game better than FC/SCC! I was worried when i heard it was slippery. I haven't hit any ice yet seems to drive ok for me!!

 

[cpp214]

Okay, I've got a little challenge for those who think the physics in Shift are too "easy." I've just spent the better part of an hour testing the Zonda F at the Nordschleife. I would urge anyone who hasn't already, to take that car and go time attack that course. I was unable, within the hour time frame I just mentioned, to put in an OLR clean, complete lap And I mean you really need to try and push the car. If, after trying this combo and really giving it your best, you still don't think Shift's physics are realistic or difficult, then I don't know what I can say that will convince you. And by the way, I'm sure there are probably more difficult combos in the game that can put Shift's physics to the test.

I am going to try this again tomorrow, but from what I've seen from this car at this track, I'm even further impressed with Shift's physics modeling. Trying to push this car to its limit at this track is a seat-of-your-pants thrill-ride. Take note of the weight transfer going on with the car. Try and accelerate hard out of corners such as Flugplatz and Bergwerk and see what happens. Try to keep the car balanced and set up properly for the fast technical corners following the Karussel. This combo is a handful and it showcases some of the best features of Shift's physics.

I know this game has some issues. And believe me, I realize that this it is literally infested with bugs and glitches. The load times are ridiculous. The tuning process in Shift is terrible 👎 However, if you can get past these issues (and I can) I'm still convinced that Shift's physics are on par with any other PS3 game--including GT5P.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I know this game has some issues. And believe me, I realize that this it is literally infested with bugs and glitches. The load times are ridiculous. The tuning process in Shift is terrible 👎 However, if you can get past these issues (and I can) I'm still convinced that Shift's physics are on par with any other PS3 game--including GT5P.

I agree. There are some (very annoying indeed) flaws, but the underlying model appears solid. That's why I keep coming back to this game.

 

[MowTin]

I just played Shift demo on Spa and then GTR2 on Spa. I used the BMW in both.

In GTR2 the steering is smoother and you have less grip. With my DFP the forcefeeback is not good in GTR2. Maybe there is a patch I missed.

But I also feel the BMW M3 is GTR2 is too slippery. My brother-in-law owns a BMW M5 with 500hp. But judging from GTR2 he should spinout in the middle of the street if he presses the gas a little too hard while in 2nd geer.

If you have GTR2 pop it in and see for yourself...these two games are basically the same underneath. Shift is a polished up version of GTR2 but Shift's "pro" is GTR2's "semi-pro".

 

[jjaisli]

...he should spinout in the middle of the street if he presses the gas a little too hard while in 2nd geer.

Yes, he should. And IMO, this is one of the two major problems with the physics in this game. It does not properly simulate grip levels when it comes to power and torque and putting it 'on the road'. Imagine driving a light weight, high powered, front wheel drive car with >275 hp and getting hard on the throttle in gears 1-3, without the steering wheel being perfectly straight. You'd have enormous torque steer. You could feel it and it would be obvious. And you'd have to really fight it, just to keep the car going in the direction you want. If you've had the benefit of this experience in a real car all the better. If not, try any high powered FWD car in Prologue and max out the power and give it a go. In Shift, the cars just accelerate smoothly and with little drama. And it's no problem keeping the car in a straight line.

And it's the same with high powered rear wheel drive cars. Does it seem reasonable, that you can take (RWD) cars with HUGE output, mash the throttle in 1st or 2nd gear and just take off in a straight line without excessive wheelspin? For goodness sakes, you shouldn't even be able to give full throttle in 1st gear in the MC12 period without breaking the tires loose. Or better yet, mash the throttle out of a tight 2nd gear corner and see what happens. Yes there's oversteer. But in a 'light weight' car with big torque numbers, you'd have to really feather the throttle, I mean really dance with it, in order to keep the car in-line.

I just find it very odd that SMS got this so completely wrong, and especially when one considers how sensitive the braking is. In an ironic twist, it's almost exactly the opposite of GT5P, which simulates throttle pretty well but does a poor job of simulating braking under some conditions. So I think when Biggles complains about the Physics being "too easy" this is more or less what he's referring to. It's not necessarily about being able to set a faster lap time. There are situations in Shift where you can be seriously off line or unbalanced, and can simply apply the throttle with practically no drama. When in truth, it should leave you facing oncoming traffic or a barrier or worse. In fact, every spin I've ever had in this game has been the result of (a) snap oversteer as a result of hard braking(*) and getting the car unsettled or (b) being tapped by the AI.

(*) Which BTW, is the second serious flaw.

 

[niky]

Okay, I've got a little challenge for those who think the physics in Shift are too "easy." I've just spent the better part of an hour testing the Zonda F at the Nordschleife. I would urge anyone who hasn't already, to take that car and go time attack that course. I was unable, within the hour time frame I just mentioned, to put in an OLR clean, complete lap And I mean you really need to try and push the car. If, after trying this combo and really giving it your best, you still don't think Shift's physics are realistic or difficult, then I don't know what I can say that will convince you. And by the way, I'm sure there are probably more difficult combos in the game that can put Shift's physics to the test.

I am going to try this again tomorrow, but from what I've seen from this car at this track, I'm even further impressed with Shift's physics modeling. Trying to push this car to its limit at this track is a seat-of-your-pants thrill-ride. Take note of the weight transfer going on with the car. Try and accelerate hard out of corners such as Flugplatz and Bergwerk and see what happens. Try to keep the car balanced and set up properly for the fast technical corners following the Karussel. This combo is a handful and it showcases some of the best features of Shift's physics.

I know this game has some issues. And believe me, I realize that this it is literally infested with bugs and glitches. The load times are ridiculous. The tuning process in Shift is terrible 👎 However, if you can get past these issues (and I can) I'm still convinced that Shift's physics are on par with any other PS3 game--including GT5P.

Doesn't prove much... the Zonda, on road tires, was difficult to drive on the Ring in GT4, too (and that lacked the snap-oversteer that both GT5P and SHIFT get right)...

I've finally gotten the game the way I want it... Pro mode...absolutely everything off... including ABS. Steering sensitivity turned down low to eliminate twitchiness (really... you don't veer off the road at a 45 degree angle every time you initiate a turn in real-life... why should you put up with that here?)

And... yes, there's still a safety net there.

For one thing... you don't understeer quite enough. I've been on track often enough to know that if you push it... everything understeers. That understeer is present in pro-mode, but even with ABS fully off, it's not terminal unless you go into a corner twice as fast as you really should. Even worse, the understeer miraculously vanishes as soon as you let off the brakes. Biggles is right about another thing... turn... understeer... turn some more... less understeer... which is the opposite of what happens in real life.

Spins... better... but you have to be doing something really, really bad to elicit one... I quite like how they accurately model weight-transfer induced spins in front-drivers, but spin recovery is really easy in this game... and there are still some sections of the Nurb where I can take liberties that I couldn't in GT4... though the physics engine here is better than GT4's, which makes up for it... partially.

Wheelspin is easier to modulate in SHIFT than in GT5P. I'm of two minds about this... part of me feels that it's due to the much better tire modelling of SHIFT (SHIFT's tire modelling is fantastic), but part of me feels that it's yet another crutch. Only time and more testing will tell.

That's not to say that SHIFT is not a challenging or engaging game... far from it! But it's still not as "sim-like" as the admittedly flawed GT5P. It's better than GT4, except, again, for that last layer of assist that doesn't seem to want to go away.

I'd rate it as slightly better than GT5P. Better in some ways, not as good in others. Better control calibration options (although it was awfully stupid to put the mail button at R3!), better modification, better tire physics, better weight transfer, better visual and force feedback. Not as good in terms of at-the-limit physics, still arcadey, and the graphics aren't as polished.

And it's short. Which means that most people who buy it now will be left twiddling their thumbs after a month or two, waiting for Forza3 and GT5 to come out.

 

[Biggles]

That's not to say that SHIFT is not a challenging or engaging game... far from it! But it's still not as "sim-like" as the admittedly flawed GT5P. It's better than GT4, except, again, for that last layer of assist that doesn't seem to want to go away.

I'd rate it as slightly better than GT5P. Better in some ways, not as good in others. Better control calibration options (although it was awfully stupid to put the mail button at R3!), better modification, better tire physics, better weight transfer, better visual and force feedback. Not as good in terms of at-the-limit physics, still arcadey, and the graphics aren't as polished.

Yup, I would agree 100% with that description - adding awesome sound & superb cockpit view to the pluses. I think it's possible that GT5 will seem like a very sterile experience after getting used to the thrills of Shift's sound/visuals. I do have the suspicion that underlying the existing physics there is the potential for more complex handling, that has been deliberately dumbed down in the released version.

I don't see why the game should be "short". Aside from the insane AI, there ought to be plenty of replay value online, especially seeing it's got the Nordschleife.