The SHIFT physics thread

[Dude27]

Don't know if you already knew this one... but to remove the painful oversteering, you go to the quick tuning, then put the slider all to the left to the OVERTEERING! ( EA seems to have misplaced oversteer and understeer... the car feel much more balanced with this setup.

 

[TrievelA7X]

I'm amazed this isn't complete bashing. This is the worst "sim" attempt I've ever seen if my life. The cars turn as though you turn a matchbox car with your hand, it just rotates, and then when you stop steering, rotates back. Everything in the game is at least good, if not excellent, except for the steering, which I can't even give a zero, because it actually negates from the positive, meaning while the braking, accelerating, wheelspin, graphics, ect, are all between 7-9.5 out of 10, the steering is so bad, it actually takes overall game level down to 4, 5 if it's lucky. I could go on a half hour rant, but I'll bite my tongue, just know if you haven't bought this game, watch a gamefly commercial first, because it's really that terrible.
Seriously, it's a racing game, you're just not using cars, you know, with 4 wheels, and the front ones turn? these "cars" all have 4 wheel steering.

 

[skazz]

these "cars" all have 4 wheel steering.

Some do feel floaty, some don't. And if you own the PC version you can sort the FFB/wheel out with a custom modified profile (see no grip racing's thread on it for details) which can get the floatiness out almost completely. 💡

 

[TrievelA7X]

Some do feel floaty, some don't. And if you own the PC version you can sort the FFB/wheel out with a custom modified profile (see no grip racing's thread on it for details) which can get the floatiness out almost completely. 💡

I don't mean floaty-ness, although thats there sometimes. I mean the way the cars turn. Picture the only way you can personally turn a matchbox car by hand. THAT's how the cars turn. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. see-saw-see-saw-see-saw.
I'm gonna see what I can do about making my own video demonstration, and putting it on youtube.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I'm amazed this isn't complete bashing.

Because the game would be quite okay if it weren't for those damn' bugs. The default controls ARE dodgy, but there are plenty of settings for both wheel and controller that work for most people. (There's a thread right here in this subforum ) If you look through the bugs (yeah, I know that's pretty hard with them being so many and so bad ), it's a decent game. And many people here disagree about the 'car-on-pole' physics. Love to see your video though. 👍

And, more importantly: we got confirmation that they are aware of the problems.

On that same forum, you will find some interesting posts from someone (an experienced GTR2 modder) about why he thinks the game is flawed. I tend to agree, as Shift is based on the GTR2 engine, it's very likely that the settings fed into the engine are wrong, rather than the engine itself. (At the very least, they were rushed to make the release).

 

[skazz]

I don't mean floaty-ness, although thats there sometimes. I mean the way the cars turn. Picture the only way you can personally turn a matchbox car by hand. THAT's how the cars turn. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. see-saw-see-saw-see-saw.
I'm gonna see what I can do about making my own video demonstration, and putting it on youtube.

I know what you mean. It's just that some cars don't suffer from it. Try the Evo IX as an example. No see-saw there.

So it's something not right in the engine which seems to affect only certain types of car models.


P.S. In case you didn't notice, you can time trial any car with stock settings at any track. Take a selection of cars out such as the Corvette, Ford GT, Lambos, Evo, Lotus. A number of these don't suffer from the see-saw you are talking about.

 

[markao]

I don't mean floaty-ness, although thats there sometimes. I mean the way the cars turn. Picture the only way you can personally turn a matchbox car by hand. THAT's how the cars turn. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. see-saw-see-saw-see-saw.
I'm gonna see what I can do about making my own video demonstration, and putting it on youtube.

Thats just driver (controller) input, you can drive the cars completely without it. Game has an agressive momentum/weight shift, combined with an almost lack of "coast" under deceleration, so you always need the momentum (roll) going (use (genle) throttle if necesary).

Earlier today did lap in McLaren F1 around Spa, as you can see, no see-saw at all.

NFS Shift McLaren F1 Spa

 

[Clark]

Markao your vid makes the game look like I want it to drive like.
Which console are you on (or are you on PC) and with wheel or pad?

If your on the wheel it makes me want my Fanatec to hurry up even more.

 

[Christian_C]

The problem I have with this game is it just feels like its got the old central steering axis problem, I need to try it with the wheel though as your vid in the Mclaren F1 makes it look really good again.

 

[Biggles]

This is the worst "sim" attempt I've ever seen if my life

Really? Worse than FC?!

I think you are exaggerating. The see-sawing takes place when you first start playing the game, because it's necessary to adjust to the different feel of the game. I would say the most problematic thing is the vicious locking of the brakes under even light brake pressure, that causes the cars to swing violently from side to side.

Dialling down the brake settings helps, but it still requires a VERY light foot on the brake pedal. My strategy: brake early & carefully, release brake pressure entering the turn, allow the car's weight to swing to the outside, turn through the apex, then apply throttle (all this is quite similar to FC, although different from GT5P where it is easy to brake hard until the very last minute). The cars in Shift (mostly) understeer quite nicely into the turn, what is unrealistic IMO, is how easy it is to apply throttle after hitting the apex: Shift does not require careful balancing of under-steer/over-steer at that point, which takes away the degree of difficulty & leaves it somewhat short of a true sim.

I can't help suspecting TrievelA7X, that your conclusions, as with FC, come after only spending a short amount of time with the game.

 

[markao]

Markao your vid makes the game look like I want it to drive like.
Which console are you on (or are you on PC) and with wheel or pad?

If your on the wheel it makes me want my Fanatec to hurry up even more.

I assume that's Xbox for you with the Fanatec reference, if PC then read on


PC + G25 all aids off, no auto clutch (blip on down shifts, slight lift on up shifts in the McLaren)

Custom FFB G25 wheel settings done by “Lovretta” : click here (at RSC)

There are a lot of FFB settings that change the feel a lot, but unfortunately only available for PC users. Always wondered why they do not provide more custom profiles (or optional sliders/settings as they are read by the game), but probably some research told developers to keep menu's simple, hate that

 

[cpp214]

Okay, I see that no one else has taken up my "challenge" of taking the Zonda F out to the Nordschleife and testing out Shift's physics.

I've just taken that car out again and have spent another half hour trying to put in a clean fast lap, with no luck

I'm now going to move on to a new car--another high performance car of some type--and see what that car has to offer. I'm trying not to play this game the way I did GT5P, and worry too much about laptimes and comparing myself to other drivers. That would spoil the great fun that it is. And to be honest, I'm getting a bit frustrated by the difficulty of Shift's physics at this track. But, it is by far the most realistic version of the "Ring" I have played in a Sim so far. So I have nothing to blame but my apparent lack of skill and obvious need for improvement.

I'm finding it hard to believe that some people think Shift's physics are too forgiving. But then again, to each his own as they say.
I'm now convinced that Shift's physics are more difficult and realistic than Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Especially with faster cars. You have to take so much more into account when driving in Shift than you do in Prologue. The tracks actually have bumps in them, so your car can become unsettled much easier. Braking is more difficult and much more a game of finesse. No, you can't modulate braking as precisely as you can in Prologue, but Prologue is not realistic in that aspect, at all. You can't modulate braking as precisely in real life as you can in Prologue--period. The FFB is not as precise in Shift, but then again, Prologue's FFB is too smooth and clinical compared to reality. Just watch some real life onboard videos and you will will see that the wheel doesn't just turn smoothly and effortlessly in the driver's hands--unless they are on a flat, smooth track with no bumps. They actually have to wrestle with it at times. Because the FFB is not as precise, you actually have to focus a lot more on maintaining the proper driving line.

Anyone who thinks there is a "safety net" built into Shift's physics should really take some of the more high performance stock RWD drive cars out for a test at the Ring and try to push the cars as hard as you would in Prologue and then come back and tell everybody about Shift's physics.

And also, to put it as nicely as I can, those of you playing this game with a Sixaxis are only playing half the game at best and most of your comments reflect that. I used a Sixaxis in the GT series, so I can empathize with you. But this game really must be played with a wheel in order to get the most out of it and fully appreciate the depth and complexity of the physics. Prologue is much more forgiving for Sixaxis users--again, not very realistic. Also, if you are using chase cam, then obviously the car is going to look like it is behaving oddly. Shift's chase cam leaves a lot to be desired. But then again, so did Prologue's. If you haven't played this game yet, and are concerned by videos you have seen of people playing the game in chase mode, don't be put off. If you can adapt to bumper or cockpit cam, the cars drive just fine that way. If you are a chase cam devotee however, and just can't bring yourself to use another view, then this game might not be for you.

That's my daily screed in support of Shift. I think I'm about to lose my give-a-**** trying to convince people of the brilliance of this game. Maybe when the patch comes out later this week, it will solve some of the bugs and glitches that have annoyed some people (including me). Until then, hopefully some of you will try out some of the real high performance cars and take them to the best automotive test track in the world (the 'Ring) and see if you don't start to gain a better appreciation for Shift's physics.

EDIT: Just ran a 6'36.xxx in the Zonda R. It was clean, but sloppy. Always difficult to tell at the Ring, but I think another 2 or maybe even 3 seconds can be trimmed off that pretty easily I don't know how that even stacks up as a laptime, but it was really fun. And I think it's pretty representative of what the Zonda R could do in real life on slick tires--It's basically a 1.8 Million Euro LMP/Street car

 

[MowTin]

And it's the same with high powered rear wheel drive cars. Does it seem reasonable, that you can take (RWD) cars with HUGE output, mash the throttle in 1st or 2nd gear and just take off in a straight line without excessive wheelspin?

Are you sure you have it in pro mode? At the starting line I get massive wheel spin even in the BMW if I mash the throttle. Not only wheel spin but the car's rear will slip.

I'm playing the PC demo.

 

[LaBounti]

I think its a GREAT Need For speed title but its not that close to being the next big sim. Still fun and good when you can keep the car from sliding so much including the front wheel drive cars.

 

[MowTin]

Are you sure you have it in pro mode? At the starting line I get massive wheel spin even in the BMW if I mash the throttle. Not only wheel spin but the car's rear will slip.

I'm playing the PC demo.

Correction.

I just tried the BMW M3 and I mashed the gas on the corners. No oversteer 👎

Same thing in the Viper.

I guess I was being careful on the throttle when exiting like you have to do in GT5P or any other sim but here you don't. You get just this slight oversteer that you can almost ignore.

Very disappointing when you consider how good the tire model and sounds and driver experience are in this game.

I hope they fix this issue, fix the car collisions and resolve the bounce issue I've read about.

In the EA forum a dev said their working on a patch. It seems this baby was rushed out the door to beat Forza and GT.

 

[NLxAROSA]

And also, to put it as nicely as I can, those of you playing this game with a Sixaxis are only playing half the game at best and most of your comments reflect that. I used a Sixaxis in the GT series, so I can empathize with you. But this game really must be played with a wheel in order to get the most out of it and fully appreciate the depth and complexity of the physics. Prologue is much more forgiving for Sixaxis users--again, not very realistic.

Spot on. But I still understand the criticism. Most people playing simply don't have a wheel. It's a design decision that narrows the target audience by a large amount. Still, people with a pad should checkout this thread for some alternative steering settings.

 

[Biggles]

Okay, I see that no one else has taken up my "challenge" of taking the Zonda F out to the Nordschleife and testing out Shift's physics.

I've just taken that car out again and have spent another half hour trying to put in a clean fast lap, with no luck

Are you sure you are not mistaking the difficulty of negotiating the Nordschiefe at high speed for the actual difficulty of the physics?

I would be curious to know what other racing sims you've tried?

Even in GT4, with a very simplified physics model, running the Nordschliefe fast in some cars is very challenging. In Enthusia (which I recommend getting hold of if you can find it), keeping some powerful FR or MR cars on the track is almost &$@#*%!! impossible. Hats off to anyone who can complete a clean lap of the Ring in the AC Cobra.

F1CE is also very difficult because of the extreme speed/acceleration/deceleration/close racing/terminal damage/spin out, even though I suspect the physics aren't that close to real F1 racing.

The point is, there are many different aspects to the degree of difficulty & the "realism" of a racing game. My complaint against GT5P is that although it has amazingly crisp & pristine graphics & complex physics modelling, it's missing some of the other elements that make for an interesting & "realistic" racing sim. Shift delivers on some of those missing elements quite nicely.

And also, to put it as nicely as I can, those of you playing this game with a Sixaxis are only playing half the game at best and most of your comments reflect that. I used a Sixaxis in the GT series, so I can empathize with you. But this game really must be played with a wheel in order to get the most out of it and fully appreciate the depth and complexity of the physics. Prologue is much more forgiving for Sixaxis users--again, not very realistic. Also, if you are using chase cam, then obviously the car is going to look like it is behaving oddly. Shift's chase cam leaves a lot to be desired. But then again, so did Prologue's. If you haven't played this game yet, and are concerned by videos you have seen of people playing the game in chase mode, don't be put off. If you can adapt to bumper or cockpit cam, the cars drive just fine that way. If you are a chase cam devotee however, and just can't bring yourself to use another view, then this game might not be for you.

Yup, its' hard to discuss physics with people who are using a pad. Yeah, I know the physics (sort of) remain the same, but your experience of the physics is quite different. I, for one, would be willing to contribute a couple of bucks to the TrievelA7X Wheel Fund.

Finally, even though the FFB in Shift is pretty nice, it's still missing some of the weight & descriptive detail of FC. And no other game I've tried has the FFB effects of F1CE, where the wheel bucks, kicks & rattles as the car reacts to bumps in the road. It's just an amazingly immersive effect - why does no other game do this???

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

I bought the Zonda R (racing version) Didn't touch any setting and hit up Laguna Seca, maneuvered that course very easy. Then i jumped on the Ring, i BLASTED through the ring with no problems, it's soo easy to recover. If you over-shoot it slamming on the brakes (pro-physics ABS OFF) there's too much room for error which is why i would not consider this anywhere near a sim. The higher performance cars definitely have a better road feel and response, but barreling into turns, and the ease of correction take away the sim feel. Along with the lag in response to gear changes and throttle inputs is why i would never call this a sim, but a FUN challenging Arcade racer with "SIM" idea's behind it. Don't get me wrong if you forget to brake and turn you will under-steer through the turn, but if you miss your braking point by a little you can keep the car on the track, you will just be scrubbing off speed and off your line. I would say it's still a ways off of gt5p and LFS physics. But the sense of SPEED is better in Shift, that i will give to them. [Using G25, h-pattern shifter and auto-clutch OFF]

-Robert 👍

 

[AutoAki]

Finally, even though the FFB in Shift is pretty nice, it's still missing some of the weight & descriptive detail of FC. And no other game I've tried has the FFB effects of F1CE, where the wheel bucks, kicks & rattles as the car reacts to bumps in the road. It's just an amazingly immersive effect - why does no other game do this???

Yep... I came to Shift straight from iRacing which has amazingly accurate FFB, lazer-scanned tracks, and possibility to adjust FFB so strong that no-one uses it 100%... iRacing itself recommends G25-users to use setting 20%. I did like it more in 30%, but my history about 'racing' is from Karting so I felt that setting quite familiar.

I was totally forgotten how boring it is to drive when wheel is not kicking and rattling every second you drive. Maybe it's littlebit because non-lazer scanned tracks dont have so much bumbs etc etc, but I also noticed that my virtual-drivers hands and wheel is shaking a lot when driving, but my real-wheel aint!? Only when turning, or driving over curbs, I feel FFB, but even then the strengthness of it aint even close real.

I hope they will patch FFB with big hand to more accurate with virtual-drivers wheel, and atleast double the strength adjust-slider!

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Even the devolopers from EA has said they didnt try to make a full sim physics, but they did say that they used a very realistic base and then simplyfied some parameters to make it easyer to drive. But really I dont care, really fun anyway

 

[Biggles]

I was totally forgotten how boring it is to drive when wheel is not kicking and rattling every second you drive.

Well if you think Shift doesn't do that, what about Prologue?! It's like every centimetre of track has been freshly resurfaced.

 

[AutoAki]

Well if you think Shift doesn't do that, what about Prologue?! It's like every centimetre of track has been freshly resurfaced.

When I took that issue to the table after GT-academy Nationals, where we had G25's what everyone used, I was totally smashed down. Many GTP-members were saying that 'my G25 is kicking so hard that...blaa blaa... I need to keep strength at 8'

Well, I thought that maybe there was something wrong in settings then, and bought my own G25. It felt almost dead after DFP, and I took that issue to the table again... same responses.

After iRacing and GTR Evo FFB I know how things actually are. Some guys in GTPlanet just dont have even clue how real-cars wheel feels when youre driving near limits, and the fact that it can be modelled way better than any PS3 game nowatime does.

G25's FFB in Prologue is total joke... Shifts FFB littlebit better, but max 6/10

 

[Tired Tyres]

Even the devolopers from EA has said they didnt try to make a full sim physics, but they did say that they used a very realistic base and then simplyfied some parameters to make it easyer to drive. But really I dont care, really fun anyway

If that's the case why did they bother to put Pro mode in when Expert would have done just as well?

Pro mode should be upgraded to full sim spec.

 

[AutoAki]

If that's the case why did they bother to put Pro mode in when Expert would have done just as well?

Pro mode should be upgraded to full sim spec.

Good question.

Casual-kids could choose arcade-physics and destruction, and small group of purists could go to hardcore-side with no driving aids, and most realistic physics than possible.

Both sides would be happy.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

If that's the case why did they bother to put Pro mode in when Expert would have done just as well?

Pro mode should be upgraded to full sim spec.

I read the interview in a magasin called LEVEL. Dont rember who was interviewed, but it was someone who worked in devolopment. The argument he used was he wanted players to have fun not be frustrated.(wich I think they managed really well) Thats why they simplyfied certain parameters . He also said that he hated enduros races in GT so that may be why all races are short (Including enduros!!)

 

[Tired Tyres]

I read the interview in a magasin called LEVEL. Dont rember who was interviewed, but it was someone who worked in devolopment. The argument he used was he wanted players to have fun not be frustrated.(wich I think they managed really well) Thats why they simplyfied certain parameters . He also said that he hated enduros races in GT so that may be why all races are short (Including enduros!!)

That shows how stupid developers can be. Rather than adding features to enable, they take them away to disable. 👎

There are three difficulty settings suitable for beginners and those not interested in a Sim.

That leaves Pro for those of us who want a Sim but we can't have it because someone who thinks he knows what is best for us decides on our behalf that we shouldn't have a Sim even if we want one. 👎

The same person then decides that since he doesn't like endurance events then that dislike should prevent ME from the endurance racing that I want to do. 👎

Do you think he would be prepared to send me a cheque for the amount of money this game cost me? Somehow I don't think so.

 

[Biggles]

Pro mode should be upgraded to full sim spec.

I just have this sneaky feeling that, in Shift, that could (theoretically) be done - that the code is there, but has been "overwritten' (whatever the hell that means! ). It's like the cars start to react in a sim way ... & then stop at a certain point so that it's "easier" & "more fun".

 

[AutoAki]

I just have this sneaky feeling that, in Shift, that could (theoretically) be done - that the code is there, but has been "overwritten' (whatever the hell that means! ). It's like the cars start to react in a sim way ... & then stop at a certain point so that it's "easier" & "more fun".

One thing what is so great with all this 'todays technology and DSL-connections' is, that basically everything is possible even game is already released!

I dont like the trend, that many games are dumbed to stores even they are unfinished, and then try to fix them with patches... but I love the option that Developers can change their minds about things afterwards, and add features what they first had no guts to do.

Lets say example this 'Hardcore-Mode'. If their game-engine really is actually very good, but dumbed down because casual-kids... I assume they could add 'new level' to please some hardcore-players and receive respect from those who in the end raise some titles to being evergreens.

Nothing is more stupid than do Sim what is not enough Sim for hardcorers, but too Sim for casual-kids!

Almost as stupid is to put those two different driver-categories to same field, and expect they have fun together.


Please EA... add option to choose your Online-race from shown list, and option to create races where driving aids are restricted. That would help a lot to find likeminded competitors from Online. Now it seems to be just as stupid as in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue.

 

[Tetradic]

I read the interview in a magasin called LEVEL. Dont rember who was interviewed, but it was someone who worked in devolopment. The argument he used was he wanted players to have fun not be frustrated.(wich I think they managed really well) Thats why they simplyfied certain parameters . He also said that he hated enduros races in GT so that may be why all races are short (Including enduros!!)

NFS:S has 4 levels of physics settings (right, or is it 3). Regardless, the top of the list is "Pro". The elegant solution here would be to make pro the true "sim" experience, even relabel it "simulation" and not to water down the physics. Then the game will run the gamut from arcade racer in the NFS vein to the "sim" it could be. Win/win for all side. THis could be accomplished with a DLC (even for a price, it is EA after-all) or a upgrade. It would make online events tricky as the system is built now, they would need to include a physics choice (or lack of one depending on which physics setting you have selected in options).

As for long enduros in the game. I agree with the developer. I hate long (more than 30mins) races that are required to complete or advance in the game, like GT has (nightmares of those silly enduro races on the test course in GT3 come to mind). I don't mind longer races being there, just don't force users to have to drive them. If that was one of the drivers for the developers they have managed the compromise well. If they added a "simulation" physics then in online mode the user should be able to select as many laps as they wish.

...

Nothing is more stupid than do Sim what is not enough Sim for hardcorers, but too Sim for casual-kids!
...

Yes! When the compromise is poorly done, this will happen (and it did). But knowing there are EA developers reading this maybe this will all get filtered into the game. There is alot of good feedback here, much more than on EA's own forums.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Thats just driver (controller) input, you can drive the cars completely without it. Game has an agressive momentum/weight shift, combined with an almost lack of "coast" under deceleration, so you always need the momentum (roll) going (use (genle) throttle if necesary).

Earlier today did lap in McLaren F1 around Spa, as you can see, no see-saw at all.

NFS Shift McLaren F1 Spa

The point isnt that it can or can't be avoided, the point is that it can happen at all. It shouldnt be able to happen, period, driver input out the window. My main personal difficulty right now, is MAKING my input's, based on what I know the game drives like, and ignoring my knowledge of car physics and angles, because when I see my car at these angle, and handling the way they do, instinct leads me, and it leads me to counter-steer, at times in this game when it will magically straighten itself out.
As for controllers, I still "pause" the game and go to a friggin online friends list at least once a race, if not more, and there's nothing I can do to fix it.
Updates being downloaded now though, I'll see if it's any better.