The SHIFT physics thread

[vr6wantsr20det]

NFS, needs to get their car and tire physics correct. For drifting it's ridiculous. There is no second set of physics in GT5p between race/drift they're the same, the way it SHOULD be. I enjoy NFS shift because it's challenging, not realistic, but challenging. It has Sim ideas behind it's flawed physics engine. I am always barreling into turns and doing 4-wheel drifts to take turns faster and over-take the AI, they are brutal and don't like to recognize my presence on the track most of the time. The reference of the steering be like a Toggle Switch between Over/Under-steer couldn't be more accurate. 👍

 

[phil_2001]

I don't agree that Shift physics resemble Pro Street, maybe a tiny little bit, but that doesn't count. Previous NFS and especially last ones had totally broken physics and it was felt on the global scale actually, the nfs game became one of the worst games ever, those programmers behind it had NO talent so they should do domething esle instead of driving games which I'm certain and thank god they left NFS franchise alone. The physics was as if the car didn't have proper contact with the road, or didn't follow the laws of gravity, I couldn't stand it more than half a lap... that must've been my biggest disappointment ever.

And BTW to play Shift and "enjoy" it you really need a steering wheel, even gamepad doesn't cut it.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I don't agree that Shift physics resemble Pro Street, maybe a tiny little bit, but that doesn't count. Previous NFS and especially last ones had totally broken physics and it was felt on the global scale actually, the nfs game became one of the worst games ever, those programmers behind it had NO talent so they should do domething esle instead of driving games which I'm certain and thank god they left NFS franchise alone. The physics was as if the car didn't have proper contact with the road, or didn't follow the laws of gravity, I couldn't stand it more than half a lap... that must've been my biggest disappointment ever.

And BTW to play Shift and "enjoy" it you really need a steering wheel, even gamepad doesn't cut it.

Read my reply again..I said the DRIFT physics engine is exactly like Pro Street drift physics engine. Pro street and Shift simply do not have a very good engine at all. The racing is like a center axis and I already said my point about the drifting. Also I am not going to go out and by a wheel just to enjoy a game. If I cant enjoy it on the controller then I dont need to play the game.

 

[phil_2001]

NFS, needs to get their car and tire physics correct. For drifting it's ridiculous. There is no second set of physics in GT5p between race/drift they're the same, the way it SHOULD be. I enjoy NFS shift because it's challenging, not realistic, but challenging. It has Sim ideas behind it's flawed physics engine. I am always barreling into turns and doing 4-wheel drifts to take turns faster and over-take the AI, they are brutal and don't like to recognize my presence on the track most of the time. The reference of the steering be like a Toggle Switch between Over/Under-steer couldn't be more accurate. 👍

I can drift with a normal car in Shift, for example I drifted the aston martin db9 and porsche 911 and it was fun. In real life a drift car is not a usual stock car too, there needs to be done optimisations and such for a drift car, a car that participates in a drift competition. I actually think Shift is great generally, nothing too wrong with anything.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

NFS, needs to get their car and tire physics correct. For drifting it's ridiculous. There is no second set of physics in GT5p between race/drift they're the same, the way it SHOULD be. I enjoy NFS shift because it's challenging, not realistic, but challenging. It has Sim ideas behind it's flawed physics engine. I am always barreling into turns and doing 4-wheel drifts to take turns faster and over-take the AI, they are brutal and don't like to recognize my presence on the track most of the time. The reference of the steering be like a Toggle Switch between Over/Under-steer couldn't be more accurate. 👍

I agree GT5p and Forza 3 have the perfect setup for drifting. There is no second set of physics for the drifting which is how it should be. I love how in Forza 3 you just hit left on the D pad and it starts showing the points. At any time you can just press left again and the points shut off. At the same time it is recording your lap time. Very cool for sure.

 

[phil_2001]

Read my reply again..I said the DRIFT physics engine is exactly like Pro Street drift physics engine. Pro street and Shift simply do not have a very good engine at all. The racing is like a center axis and I already said my point about the drifting. Also I am not going to go out and by a wheel just to enjoy a game. If I cant enjoy it on the controller then I dont need to play the game.

Nothing in Shift resembles Pro street much. Drifting in Pro Street was flawed and way too easy like the car was doing half the job for you and unrealistic. So you don't have a steering wheel? Well try and buy one and then we'll talk because Shift is impossible to play well with a controller, infact if you think about it a driving game should be played with a steering wheel, no gamepad and no keyboard. Gran Turismo is easy to play with a gamepad because there is powerful aid assist on there, very unrealistic to begin with.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Nothing in Shift resembles Pro street much. Drifting in Pro Street was flawed and way too easy like the car was doing half the job for you and unrealistic. So you don't have a steering wheel? Well try and buy one and then we'll talk because Shift is impossible to play well with a controller, infact if you think about it a driving game should be played with a steering wheel, no gamepad and no keyboard. Gran Turismo is easy to play with a gamepad because there is powerful aid assist on there.

I have a better idea. How about you buy me a wheel then we can both be happy with the game.

 

[phil_2001]

I have a better idea. How about you buy me a wheel then we can both be happy with the game.

I assume if you can afford a video game, you can afford a steering wheel as it's not expensive. I myself got a Logitech formula GP and I love it, cost me about $50 2 years ago.

 

[Biggles]

I have to admit to being surprised how many people, who obviously spend A LOT of time playing racing sims don't bother buying wheel. I'm sure many of these people spend hundreds of dollars on gaming software. I understand why a "casual" racer would not want to spend the extra $, but spending $100 - $300 on a decent wheel would seem like a logical thing to do for any real racing fan.

Anyway, Shift remains a real puzzle: entertaining & frustrating in equal measure. BUT pretty much every racing game out there has its own issues.

 

[xKingOfDa910x]

i just got done playing this for xbox360 and the physics are a big joke. Im gonna have to wait to play it on PC with a wheel before i can fully judge them though. Other than that the game looks great.

 

[WolfRacer543]

I liked SHIFT's physics in the lower tiers (1 and 2). But once in Tier 3 I think its pretty average.

 

[phil_2001]

Tier 3 average? Supersport cars are easy as heck to drive in real life too, they just go where you point them with no problem unlike average cars that have understeer and oversteer crap. They are harder to drive only on the limits and even then only because of the psychological factor, in real life people are REALLY careful when they drive a supersport car, that thing can be very dangerous even for an experienced driver.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Tier 3 average? Supersport cars are easy as heck to drive in real life too, they just go where you point them with no problem unlike average cars that have understeer and oversteer crap. They are harder to drive only on the limits and even then only because of the psychological factor, in real life people are REALLY careful when they drive a supersport car, that thing can be very dangerous even for an experienced driver.

I never said it was "average" because it was easy... I meant the physics were "average", as in, not "good". Flaws in physics become more pronounced at Tier 3 and above.

 

[phil_2001]

Well I have driven the Gallardo so far and it reminded me a lot of Gran Turismo 5rologue. I've never driven a real Gallardo on a track though. Generally I wouldn't call Shift an average game, it's a bit higher than that, maybe "almost at the top"?

 

[Stotty]

snip... in real life, you'd never "lean" on a 911, (not unless you're Walter Rohl) and it won't bite. In fact, once you've overdone it and the car starts to fishtail, it's quite easy to bring it under control... sometimes... depends on the speed.

Actually, you can lean on a 911 VERY hard in real life... as long as the speed is reasonable (below three figures mph). It's quite easy to play with the weight transfer round say, a very big roundabout at quite high speeds... pushing the nose wide on the gas and then easing off and feeling the nose tuck in. The challenge with 911's is momentum induced oversteer (particularly in the wet!)... traction induced oversteer is relatively easy to modulate, but anything that involves the rear coming round at big speeds can be properly frightening... but you do get pretty clear messages... if you choose to ignore them then it's your choice.

The way weight transfers in a 911 is, and feels, very different to a typical FF or FR car... I drive a 911 every day, and shift does a pretty good job of replicating the feeling as much as is possible in a game where you're only connection to the car is via the steering wheel.

Of course it's MUCH easier to hoon round the 'Ring beyond the limit in Shift than in real life... but that's mainly because the physical and financial consequences of it going wrong aren't quite as intimidating.

 

[niky]

That's the thing... at the speeds we do things in Shift... you shouldn't be able to do so.

Shift does seem to do a good job of replicating the feeling... and there are moments when you can fool yourself into thinking: hey, this feels real!

But once you've committed yourself to an over-the-limit maneuver, that initial snap-oversteer or momentum understeer goes away and the car seems to gain more grip.

This is the difference between Shift and GT4. In GT4, driving at sane speeds, even an old air-cooled Porsche... errh... RUF... feels benign, easy to slide, though you need to be mindful of the balance. Push harder and it becomes harder.

In Shift... it feels quite real and realistic at 8/10ths. At 10/10ths, it punishes you for making stupid mistakes, and is pretty tricky, though still easier to drive than GT5P. At 11/10ths, when you willfully push the car into oversteer, it gets easier.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Well I have driven the Gallardo so far and it reminded me a lot of Gran Turismo 5rologue. I've never driven a real Gallardo on a track though. Generally I wouldn't call Shift an average game, it's a bit higher than that, maybe "almost at the top"?

I'm just talking about physics, since this is a thread about physics As a "game" SHIFT is good, its just I was disappointed with the physics once I started playing with the faster cars. The cars just 4 wheel power slide around. The slides are too easy to start and too easy to save, infact many corners you're better off sliding than trying to take them "cleanly".

There's a couple of mods that look good though, I just installed the "no bloom" and "no blur" mods, and now the graphics look far better (no idea why the devs didn't include the option to turn them off without mods). There's also a mod to make the physics more GTR-like (less slide-ish) which I might try once I've played the game a bit more (haven't played it for about a week).

 

[MowTin]

One thing in Shift that seems to be missing in GT5P is that shaking. When I look at this video it looks more like Shift than GT5. Notice how the car shakes on the straights and in the corners. And listen to the tire sounds as it takes the turns.

 

[Biggles]

That's the thing... at the speeds we do things in Shift... you shouldn't be able to do so.

Shift does seem to do a good job of replicating the feeling... and there are moments when you can fool yourself into thinking: hey, this feels real!

But once you've committed yourself to an over-the-limit maneuver, that initial snap-oversteer or momentum understeer goes away and the car seems to gain more grip.

This is the difference between Shift and GT4. In GT4, driving at sane speeds, even an old air-cooled Porsche... errh... RUF... feels benign, easy to slide, though you need to be mindful of the balance. Push harder and it becomes harder.

In Shift... it feels quite real and realistic at 8/10ths. At 10/10ths, it punishes you for making stupid mistakes, and is pretty tricky, though still easier to drive than GT5P. At 11/10ths, when you willfully push the car into oversteer, it gets easier.

Yes, I agree with all of this. Shift feels good up to a point, but when you push to the limit it becomes "too easy". This is quite disappointing, as I have a strong suspicion that the potential was there for a more demanding physics model, but they deliberately dumbed it down in the released version.

The Rufs on the Ring were the best part of GT4 - controlling them (especially the "Yellowbird") over the bumps was a real challenge, even though, in general the physics in GT4 were "over-simplified".

Nice video MowTin. It REALLY looks like Shift - that's what makes Shift so convincing looking/feeling/sounding, aside from the "dumbed-down" physics. Of course, in Shift you would have hammered that red car in front for extra "Aggression"points!

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

One thing in Shift that seems to be missing in GT5P is that shaking. When I look at this video it looks more like Shift than GT5. Notice how the car shakes on the straights and in the corners. And listen to the tire sounds as it takes the turns.

Agree with you, if GT would get shaking in cockpit, sound and FFB right, it will be a much more imersive game! To be honest I think PD will do big improvements on those things something must PD have done all these years!

 

[Stotty]

That's the thing... at the speeds we do things in Shift... you shouldn't be able to do so.

Shift does seem to do a good job of replicating the feeling... and there are moments when you can fool yourself into thinking: hey, this feels real!

But once you've committed yourself to an over-the-limit maneuver, that initial snap-oversteer or momentum understeer goes away and the car seems to gain more grip.

This is the difference between Shift and GT4. In GT4, driving at sane speeds, even an old air-cooled Porsche... errh... RUF... feels benign, easy to slide, though you need to be mindful of the balance. Push harder and it becomes harder.

In Shift... it feels quite real and realistic at 8/10ths. At 10/10ths, it punishes you for making stupid mistakes, and is pretty tricky, though still easier to drive than GT5P. At 11/10ths, when you willfully push the car into oversteer, it gets easier.

Well, firstly, it's a game... no point in making it so hard that no one can actually complete a lap. It's got to be a bit easier than in real life because you just don't get all the information in a game that enables you to feel what the car is doing and make the necessary adjustments.

There's plenty of both understeer and oversteer running an unmodified (and untuned) 997 GT3RS round the Ring in Shift... and once the car does start oversteering I haven't noticed that I'm able to just keep my foot in a fly round the corner with a 'dab of oppo'. You can drive through it, but that's usually with the car scrubbing speed laterally.

Most corners at the Ring aren't that high speed (3rd/4th gear, generally well under 100mph)... and at that speed, having the car move around a bit is doable if you're reasonably talented.

Here's some footage...


Of course 'stage 3 tyres' add a huge amount of grip and the traction circle also changes quite a bit too... but I have no idea if that's realistic or not as I've never driven a 911 on slicks (nor even a track day road tyre - something like a Pilot Sport Cup).

I won't comment on GT4 as it's ages since I played that game!

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

I can drift with a normal car in Shift, for example I drifted the aston martin db9 and porsche 911 and it was fun. In real life a drift car is not a usual stock car too, there needs to be done optimisations and such for a drift car, a car that participates in a drift competition. I actually think Shift is great generally, nothing too wrong with anything.

Even in Race-mode i can't get the car to handle behave normal for drifting, even though there is 900* steering using G25, it feels like the steering angle is only 270-360 because after a certain point, the wheel keeps spinning, but it feels like it's not affecting the angle of the steering. (yes i made sure to set the wheel to 900* in options, no dead-zone and 100% sensitivity). Also the lag/hesitation in the throttle response/inputs makes it pretty difficult to carefully modulate throttle control for drifting or carefully exiting a corner. My real life counter-part of my 240sx with basically stock sr20det, Coilovers, Tomei 2-way lsd, Falken Azenis (215/45/17 on 17x8.5) wheel will out handle and out drift the highly modified video game version. There's just no comparison. Shift is in NO WAY a SIMULATOR, not even close, it's just a good looking, challenging Arcade game if you ask me. I was disappointed in the lack of realism/Simulation feel, but it's still enjoyable because of the challenge and track/car selection.

 

[Machony]

NFS = SimCade

 

[Stotty]

All console racing games are simcade.

 

[Machony]

All console racing games are simcade.

Some are more Sim than others.

 

[WolfRacer543]

What's with the 900hp works viper struggling to get over 300kmh? Even if you back off the aero and spread the gears as much as possible, the car races to 200kmh then hits a wall and can barely reach 300. Doesn't seem too realistic

 

[Machony]

Yeah, the Veyron doesn't got 250mph + either, huh?

 

[niky]

Of course 'stage 3 tyres' add a huge amount of grip and the traction circle also changes quite a bit too... but I have no idea if that's realistic or not as I've never driven a 911 on slicks (nor even a track day road tyre - something like a Pilot Sport Cup).

Good points in the whole post... but this one deserves singling out.

Due to the "Stage III" tires that come stock on many of the higher-end cars, we may never know how accurate the modelling is.

But again, on lower-level cars, there' still a feeling of "assist" in there... (and the ridiculously easy recovery from understeer is the biggest sore point I have there...) yes... it's a game, and it needs to be balanced out... but other, "more serious" games walk the tightrope even finer (again, points to GT5P), and give you more of a feeling of accomplishment after you've mastered them.

 

[NLxAROSA]

even though there is 900* steering using G25, it feels like the steering angle is only 270-360 because after a certain point, the wheel keeps spinning, but it feels like it's not affecting the angle of the steering.

That has nothing to do with the game mechanics, but is the result of putting the steering sensitivity (linearity) at 100%. It means you get all the steering response in the first bit of steering motion and virtually none in the rest. Try 50% with a lower steering angle (like 400-500 or so).

 

[Stotty]

Good points in the whole post... but this one deserves singling out.

Due to the "Stage III" tires that come stock on many of the higher-end cars, we may never know how accurate the modelling is.

I never spend much time in the tier 4 cars after a few laps in the Zonda and Maserati... all the tier 3 cars come with stage 2 tyres, which feel fine grip wise to me.

But again, on lower-level cars, there' still a feeling of "assist" in there... (and the ridiculously easy recovery from understeer is the biggest sore point I have there...) yes... it's a game, and it needs to be balanced out... but other, "more serious" games walk the tightrope even finer (again, points to GT5P), and give you more of a feeling of accomplishment after you've mastered them.

I don't feel that at all.

In fact for me, Shift feels much more like real driving than any of the GT series (GT5P included)... ironic, as GT is marketed as 'the real driving simulator'. GT5P is far too sanitised and clean. And the traction model in GT5P is so far off it's laughable.

Recovering from understeer in real life isn't that hard unless you've gone in waaaay too hot... ease off the gas, let the nose settle back on line, get back on the gas... job's a good 'un. Shift replicates this. The Ring video I posted above shows this off to good effect... you can hear the front tyres on occassion when he's gone in a little hot... but a very slight easing of the gas brings it back in to line.