The SHIFT physics thread

[ItsHim]

OK, but that shouldn't enable the car to appear to defy the laws of physics.

Then the Renault should be exactly to your taste


(Even though ESP is active on the Renault, it almost rolled and was only saved by the test driver. The VW and Citroen managed to pass the test. A software update by Renault should fix the problem )

 

[otago]

I find myself screwing up and restarting races in SHIFT more than I ever do in GTR (can't really say LFS, because I only play that online).

Well, if "GTR" means GTR Evolution this is not surprising. I screw up much more in PGR 4 than in this "hardcore PC simulator". LOL

I consider buying the game but looks like opinions about physics are very mixed

 

[Biggles]

Wow, try prologue on pro physics with a powerful RWD car then, that way you'll know the meaning of sliding and spinning!

Nope, you should try Enthusia with some of the RWD drive cars.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Well, if "GTR" means GTR Evolution this is not surprising. I screw up much more in PGR 4 than in this "hardcore PC simulator". LOL

You must be playing a different build of GTR evo to me

But I mean any GTR, GTR 1 was a lot harder than the current games, they made GTR2, RACE07 and GTR evo more accessible since the original GTR it was extremely hard to lay down the power in a 600-700hp GT1 monster. All the games after the original GTR you can push a lot harder before the rear wheels give up on you.

But I find SHIFT difficult because the cars just slide all the time it becomes harder to predict where the car will end up. So whilst it might be "easy" to save a slide and easy to start a slide, I find it more difficult to actually win a race.

 

[otago]

it was extremely hard to lay down the power in a 600-700hp GT1 monster.

Piece of cake compare to Forza 900+ HP Supra or GT5P Ford GT. If you judge how real the game is by how hard cars to control, consoles win by far margin

 

[phil_2001]

In real life a car is hard to control, more so at speed limits. In this respect Shift is doing a poor job, I mean when you are going high speeds in Shift it's like you half float, the "car on the road" physics are not believable. Gran Turismo on the other hand is doing a great job in this department. Sometimes my hands sweat when driving a car in Gran Turismo and my attention pointed hard at the screen. In Shift that has never happened to me.

I've got a car in real life and although I've never took it to Nurburgring comparing them overall I'd say Gran Turismo is still most realistic driving experience of them all. The feeling of car weight in your hands is great in GT.

 

[Stotty]

GT5P does have a more detailed physics model than Shift in the way weight transfers etc. But it doesn't give the same feel through the steering for what the car's doing.

One big gap in GT5P physics is the traction model... my 911 has Conti Sport Contact 2's, which I guess are equivalent to N2's in GT5P. It will take full throttle in 1st in a straight line without the wheels spinning no problems (even in the wet)... in GT5P it would be spinning it's wheels in 2nd and 3rd in a straight line. Shift models grip much more effectively than GT5P.

 

[niky]

GT5P's model of torque and throttle application does seem flawed in that respect... Shift seems to have the lag in power you get when you suddenly got WOT from nothing down a lot better.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Shift models grip much more effectively than GT5P.

Well, I kind of noticed the reverse on the 350Z. In Shift, going 150kph and going slightly from left to right (or vice versa), the tires start to scream. I can say it does not do that in real life. As a matter of fact, with the default tires on it (Bridgestone Potenza RE050A), the 350Z is really easy to handle and has tons of grip. Making the tires scream above 2nd gear requires real effort.

 

[niky]

Do you have a GPS or inertial performance box telling you how many lateral Gs you're loading into the tires when you do this? I can make anything squeal at under 100 km/h.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Do you have a GPS or inertial performance box telling you how many lateral Gs you're loading into the tires when you do this?

Nope. And with the minor steering I was referring to, I don't think I'll need one, because there were hardly any lateral G's. I was talking about very small steering corrections, not the 'throw car into corner' kind of steering. More like changing lanes on a highway.

I can make anything squeal at under 100 km/h.

Like I said, in lower gears no problem at all to make the tyres squeal. (Hell, I could make a 60HP Seat Arosa scream if I want to) But on higher gears you really need to make an effort (and I would certainly advise against doing so on a public road). In Shift I had the tires squeal on me when making minor steering corrections at around 150kph (on a more or less straight road). Never happened to me in real life at the same (or higher) speeds when doing a lot more steering.

BTW, I'm not completely sure if it's just the 'over the top' sound effects or the car actually loosing grip though.

 

[johngt]

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/317746.page - this looks interesting

 

[NLxAROSA]

So far, 81% vote that EA add a 'sim' setting. 👍 Let's just hope they put it in, along with the obvious fixes.

 

[Stotty]

In my post I'm talking about traction rather than lateral grip.

GT5P models lateral grip well... but not traction.

Shift models traction well... but there's too much lateral grip.

Games add 'tyre squeal' to help gamers understand how close to the grip limit they are and 'add to the experience'... GT5P has really annoying tyre squeal sounds at speeds that are totally unrealistic.

 

[ItsHim]

So far, 81% vote that EA add a 'sim' setting. 👍 Let's just hope they put it in, along with the obvious fixes.

I can understand why so many of the seasoned sim racers would like a more sophisticated NFS.Shift approach, but that's not true to the original game design philosophy as far as I'm concerned.

NFSorsche(PC) was cutting edge because it had independent suspension reflected in the game model. You know, back in the good old days, that was quite something.

It was very sim because of that.

Shift is very sim, because (a) they pay a ridiculous amount of attention to detail and (b) they use the quintessence of any "proper" racing game design - basic Newton Laws, racing techniques, management of weight shift, throttle and brake control, racing lines, etc.

It's fun, it's accessible, it's challenging, it's a true NFS by my standards and it gets the job done.

In fact it's the best feeling NFS title in a decade, it would be right up there with Test Drive 1, Mario Kart, GT1 and TOCA if it wasn't for the bugs, glitches and carrer mode flaws.

It's not Forza or GT, simply because there is no room left for such a game.

Nobody wants real "real life" physics in a game - because nobody has the skill to play those games. Everybody wants to believe a game is true to real life because that gives them the illusion - and that's what games are for.

Some, the very die hard sim racers or the RL motorsport enthusiasts with actual licence or a lot of track time, can appreciate the depth PD or T10 sneaked it. But it's only there because both are flagship titles for the consoles, and yes, I bought a XBox because of FM2 and I will buy a PS3 if when GT5 is out. In fact I hate myself that I thought GT5P is just a GT4 (which I love to pieces) with fancier graphics.

Most MS/Sony independent developers can spend a good amount of time, human resources and cash to get the numbers right. They can't afford the manpower needed for fancy graphics or a ridiculous number of cars included or the code polishing needed to get both maths and graphics go together.

To conclude my rant:

Is there a game engine beneath Shift that is capable of portraying physical laws? Yes there is. Is there an emphasis on doing so? Only in so far as it serves the gaming experience in a chosen context.

It would love to see the bugs fixed, but I'd hate to see go Shift hardcore.

 

[Stotty]

Very well said, I agree 100% 👍

 

[vompatti]

Games add 'tyre squeal' to help gamers understand how close to the grip limit they are and 'add to the experience'... GT5P has really annoying tyre squeal sounds at speeds that are totally unrealistic.

The first reason is probably the reason for tyre squeal. But couple of years ago I visited in the US and we had a kind of a family van in for a rent. It was american, I can't remember the make or model but something like let's say Ford Transit as a bus model in europe. When you turned the car in a parking area to a parking slot with just a hint of aggression, the tires squealed And in there I noticed it with many other cars too. Just to say that european and american people might consider different amount of tyre squel in different situations as normal. I don't know if it was in the asphalt or in the tyres, but for sure it squealed so easily in there. Something that I usually never hear in any circumstances in my country.

 

[Stotty]

I noticed that too when I lived in the US... probably something to do with the type of tarmac used as I never noticed it in Europe.

 

[NLxAROSA]

It would love to see the bugs fixed, but I'd hate to see go Shift hardcore.

The proposition was not to make it mandatory, the proposition was to provide the option. So it's not a replacement, but an addition. I certainly wouldn't want to change the fundamentals of Shift, I really like it the way it is.

 

[ItsHim]

I noticed that too when I lived in the US... probably something to do with the type of tarmac used as I never noticed it in Europe.

Try the mountain parking structure in Monte Carlo - the name's lost on me. Brilliant tyre squeal at about 15 kph

The proposition was not to make it mandatory, the proposition was to provide the option. So it's not a replacement, but an addition. I certainly wouldn't want to change the fundamentals of Shift, I really like it the way it is.

I agree fully, but you know how it is: "Look at me, I'm a bad "three letter word" driver, I drive on full everything and cheat my way right to the most badest "three letter word" (again) car in game. What the Dickens, I keep coming in last? Oh, this game is crap!" That's a serious dilemma if you're publishing on EA.

As for being on topic: The way things are in Shift are deliberately so, at least in my opinion. It's a game design decision and the sales pitch was a bit off, but we know that happens.

Sorry for being grumpy, really.

I'm a bit disappointed that some constantly say "the physics are crap" because they are simply not. Gameplay maybe not down to everyone's taste, especially the affectionados feel the need for "more", it's a bit cheesy on the graphics and really slaps weight transfer in your face to name but one larger than life visual effect.

Anyway, I appreciate everybody's opinion and I think we all love cars and/or racing a lot, otherwise we wouldn't bother to be here in the first place 👍

 

[NLxAROSA]

I'm a bit disappointed that some constantly say "the physics are crap" because they are simply not.

I've said it before, and I'll keep repeating it: IMO some of the car/track settings are off, but definitely not the physics engine behind it, it's very solid. But it's hard for people to separate the two.

And even if they do put in an extra 'hardcore' mode, people will still complain, because it doesn't live up to their expectations 150%.

In the mean time, people like yourself (and me, and many others) will enjoy this game for what it is. Even though some people will call us 'blind fans' or 'not true sim players' because we choose to enjoy the good points, rather than focus on the flaws.

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

i tried changing the Steering sensitivity to 50% and setting it to 900* and 720*, the car would not turn at all, i was flying off the track . But at 50% sensitivity and set at 360* steering it was pretty responsive. I've given up on drifting in this game in race/time-attack mode (forget drift mode thats just a sad joke). I do enjoy the game for what it is, but i will be trading it in soon when forza 3 is released, even though i'll have to play with a controller, it should hold me off unitll GT5. I went back to Live for speed and GT5p again, although they don't have the cars/tracks of NFS shift, they are definitely more my cup of tea.

But i will agree with what most people said, the Tier 1-2 cars in stock-ish form really are the more enjoyable cars to drive. The highly modified and super-cars do take away from the feel and numb down the experience. Shift isn't a bad game, just not really what i was looking for. 👍

 

[Stotty]

Each to their own I guess.

I find the tier 1/2 cars too slow to be challenging and that the tier 3 cars have the most enjoyable balance of speed and grip... as long as you don't upgrade the tyres or stick loads of wing on them that is.

But occassionally I like my fix of tier 4 madness... the Porsche Carrera GT for example is very fast, very challenging but very honest - in that it's well balanced and doesn't chuck you off in to the barriers over the bumps.

I very rarely drive anything modified further than a few power upgrades, a bit of weight loss and stage 2 suspension... I've never upgraded a car to 'works' spec in the weeks I've owned the game.

By the way... a standard GT3RS will drift wonderfully well... maybe not 'on the lockstops' sideways, but with a nice quarter turn of 'oppo' round most of the Ring.

 

[Biggles]

The reason we (PS3 owners) need Shift to be more sim is because GT5P is a small game that is almost 2 years old & GT5 may be 6 months or more from release. SCC is a good game but with a small developer's budget that can't compete with the flagship titles in graphics & overall polish. 360 owners do not have that problem because Forza 3 is out now, & is clearly head-&-shoulders the best racing sim available right now. They don't need a more sim Shift.

 

[paskowitz]

My advise to everyone here... get the PC version (pending you have a good PC and a G25), install the Real Cars Mod 2.0b, set the steering sensitivity to 90%, turning radius to 540, FFB to max, speed sensitive steering to 5-10% and have fun. Its SO much better than the stock set up. There is still a bit of loose feedback when the wheel is centered and cars can do that annoying sway thing but its still 100Xs better than stock.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Piece of cake compare to Forza 900+ HP Supra or GT5P Ford GT. If you judge how real the game is by how hard cars to control, consoles win by far margin

I never said I did judge how real a game is by how hard it is to control... quite the contrary I find SHIFT hard to get good consistant lines because the back end is always stepping out which makes me want to correct when the game doesn't want you to correct to be fast, in such a way that I do not find realistic.

Also, I'm not sure which forza you mean as I dont own an xbox 360, but Forza 1 was a piece of cake to control 900+hp cars. Way easier than a 600-700hp car in GTR1. GTR1 was quite a long way off GTR2 and GTR evo as far as difficulty was concerned, the rear end would snap way faster and be way harder to control in GTR1 than subsequent simbin games.

But you can't really compare the "console" 900hp cars to the GTR 600hp ones anyway, the GTR cars, well, they ARE based on GT cars, as such they are based on cars which are well designed and thought out as far as getting the most performance out of a car is concerned. Console games that let you soup up cars to 900hp are usually street cars, which are modified by whatever interpretation of a street car the developers had in mind. They are usually overpowered and not well thought out and designed.

 

[maulreize]

Personally, I turned the wheel to 270* and the speed steering sensitivity to 40% and the game feels tight and responsive. The FFB is better for me at those settings as well. Granted, I don't do much career mode, but Quick Race seems to be a lot more fun. This is the first game I have ever played with a wheel (G27), but I have enjoyed it very much. I find the physics to be just sim enough to make solo laps fun and challenging.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I find the physics to be just sim enough to make solo laps fun and challenging.

Without having played the online portion yet, I would say the time attack portion of this game is the best. I had tons of fun trying out different cars yesterday doing laps around Donington. 👍

 

[Scaff]

I really am finding it hard to work out if I love or hate the damn physics in this game, never before have I come across a title that is so damn confusing.

Hot laping the Nurburgring in the Megane or M3 is a joy, as are most of the tier 1 races, however the drift mode is quick frankly stupefyingly weird and I had a tier two race at Spa that just seems to have what I can only describe as totally inconsistent physics at times. That and some of the head to heads force you to (and let you) drive in a rather unrealistic manner to win, yet you can go to the next race available and try the same thing and if throws you into the armco as soon as you try.

At times I can see Shift serving me well until GT5 comes out, at other time I want to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

Just don't get how a title could be so different, so many times in such a short space of time. I strikes me that at least three different dev teams worked on the physics and never bothered speaking to each other at any point.


Regards

Scaff

 

[maulreize]

Without having played the online portion yet, I would say the time attack portion of this game is the best. I had tons of fun trying out different cars yesterday doing laps around Donington. 👍

I am a little frustrated that the game doesn't keep a log of you best times (only your single best time) for a track. I have been logging my best lap times in a notebook instead (along with car info for the particular lap and 5 lap race total). Im not very good, but this makes the game a challenge every time I fire it up. I find the fun in this game is not in comparing it to other games, but in enjoying it for what it is. Similarly, horror movies usually aren't shining examples of critical film making, but they can be very enjoyable all the same.