The SHIFT physics thread

[Biggles]

I am a little frustrated that the game doesn't keep a log of you best times (only your single best time) for a track. I have been logging my best lap times in a notebook instead (along with car info for the particular lap and 5 lap race total).

Totally agree. This is a glaring & annoying omission.

I really am finding it hard to work out if I love or hate the damn physics in this game, never before have I come across a title that is so damn confusing.

Hot laping the Nurburgring in the Megane or M3 is a joy, as are most of the tier 1 races, however the drift mode is quick frankly stupefyingly weird and I had a tier two race at Spa that just seems to have what I can only describe as totally inconsistent physics at times. That and some of the head to heads force you to (and let you) drive in a rather unrealistic manner to win, yet you can go to the next race available and try the same thing and if throws you into the armco as soon as you try.

At times I can see Shift serving me well until GT5 comes out, at other time I want to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

Welcome to the club!

I would definitely say that some of the cars & some of the tracks are better than others. Try the BMW 135i & the S2000 for cars that both understeer & oversteer in a challenging way. My vote also goes to Donnington GP, Silverstone GP & Autopolis GP as good tracks. Unfortunately, Road America has that "frankly stupefyingly weird" long sweeping Carousel right-hander where "time stands still" - makes me queasy every time I run it.

The way to arrive at an understanding of the physics is to stick to one car & drive it a lot until you can race at the limit, hitting the apexes consistently. Then (for the most part) the physics, although "simplified" seem to make some sort of sense...

 

[niky]

I really am finding it hard to work out if I love or hate the damn physics in this game, never before have I come across a title that is so damn confusing.

Hot laping the Nurburgring in the Megane or M3 is a joy, as are most of the tier 1 races, however the drift mode is quick frankly stupefyingly weird and I had a tier two race at Spa that just seems to have what I can only describe as totally inconsistent physics at times. That and some of the head to heads force you to (and let you) drive in a rather unrealistic manner to win, yet you can go to the next race available and try the same thing and if throws you into the armco as soon as you try.

At times I can see Shift serving me well until GT5 comes out, at other time I want to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

Just don't get how a title could be so different, so many times in such a short space of time. I strikes me that at least three different dev teams worked on the physics and never bothered speaking to each other at any point.


Regards

Scaff

There are three different physics engines.

One which is 50% better than GT5P, which takes place at 8/10ths.

One which is 80% better than GT5P, which takes place at 10/10ths.

One which is pure arcade, which takes place at 11/10ths.

It also helps to note that Tier 2, 3 and 4 cars receive stickier tires as standard compared to Tier 1 cars.

The best way to enjoy Shift is to drive clean and neat all the time. Resist the urge to "chuck" the car at a corner, which keeps the drift-fairies from waking up. Don't brake too late, as this will wake up the grip-fairies, too. Drive a proper line through every corner and get as few aggression points as possible, and the game will reward you by staying tricky.

Took a break from Shift for a while. Going to finish Fallout 3 again. Play a little GT5P, then will try to get back into the racing.

 

[Biggles]

One which is 50% better than GT5P, which takes place at 8/10ths.

One which is 80% better than GT5P, which takes place at 10/10ths.

One which is pure arcade, which takes place at 11/10ths.

Well yes, but let's be straight: the immersion of the cockpit view + sound, & to a lesser extent, the FFB, are way better than GT5P. That's what makes it hard to dismiss this game. The physics are decent - certainly no where near Grid or Dirt - but a bit ... umm ... "inconsistent" from car to car & even track to track.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Well yes, but let's be straight: the immersion of the cockpit view + sound, & to a lesser extent, the FFB, are way better than GT5P. That's what makes it hard to dismiss this game. The physics are decent - certainly no where near Grid or Dirt - but a bit ... umm ... "inconsistent" from car to car & even track to track.

You forgot "race-to-race".
I experienced something I have never experienced in my life thus far yesterday.
I was in an online lobby, racing the same 3-4 guys over various tracks, all races had 14.00 handicap.
To keep it short, towards the beginning, we races Willow Springs GP, I use my 13.96 point Murcielago, and dominated the race, specifically I could take the second to last turn, the light sweeper, at full throttle, around 150mph, in 6th gear, it was quite easy in fact.
About 45 minutes later, the host returned us to Willow Springs GP. so I took my Murcielago again, planning on dominating even more so. Well, this time, I entered that same sweeper, barreling in at 150mph, in 6th gear, and... oh ****"! BAM! smashed into the wall, not even close to holding it, second time around, I'm thinking, must have been a fluke, I try again, BLAM! the wall again, so after that, I was jabbing the brakes, downshifting to 5th, I held it the last two times, but barely, and I'd slowed down 20-25mph from my previous race, and I certainly did NOT dominate, although the leader managed to smack the last turn's outside wall, and I shot past him 100yds before the line, to steal a win out of it anyway

Regardless the outcome, I could clearly and easily take that turn at full speed, I didn't even have to think about it, nor did I have to keep the wheel cranked all the way to make it through at 150mph, it was rather laid back, even at that speed, so... next time I race there, I don't even know what the hell I'm supposed to do.

EDIT: I forgot, the physics are still crap. It still doesn't give any impression of a car driving down a road, rather a spacecraft with mysterious oversteering tendencies, floating along 0.2 cm above ground level. (Untill a Porsche hits a bump, and hops like a bunny off the track) - literally, like a friggin bunny.

 

[CodeRedR51]

My opinion on the physics:

I test drove a Bugatti Veyron tonight for a few laps around Laguna Seca. All I can say is, if that is how that car behaves in real life.....wow.

That thing had me grinning all three laps that I ran.

Honestly, this game has me sold. I love the handling, I love the sounds, and the graphics aren't great, but certainly not bad. Took me quite a few hours to get the handling physics down using the Sixaxis controller, but I seem to have it straitened out.

Now if only I could get used to the drifting.

 

[phil_2001]

Do you think Shift physics are more beliavable than GTR evolution and Race 07? Cause I'm thinking of bying GTR Evo, although the lack of HDR lighting is painful for the eye, more so after Shift, but I might give it a try, maybe the demo first.

 

[Mad Matt]

I found GTR Evo much better than the demo version of Shift. In fact it was quite good and feels a lot better than GTR or GTR2. The steering seems more realistic and gives more feel than the older versions.

Of course the full version of Shift may be a different matter.

 

[Hun200kmh]

There is no possible comparison between GTR Evo and Shift. GTR Evo is a (great, from my POV) sim, Shift is nowhere near that concept, although graphics (if you switch all the annoying stuff off), sound and cockpit view are the best you can get atm.

 

[Terronium-12]

My point of view has always been had EA not wanted to get involved with Shift and let SimBin do what they were originally supposed to, Shift would have been a lot better than it is now.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Anyone else notice that the game simulates a slipping clutch? Caught me off guard and I thought it was hilarious. Upgraded an MX-5 with a stage one turbo, without upgrading the clutch, and it was slipping like crazy. Upgraded to stage one clutch, no slipping...

 

[Tetradic]

The way to arrive at an understanding of the physics is to stick to one car & drive it a lot until you can race at the limit, hitting the apexes consistently. Then (for the most part) the physics, although "simplified" seem to make some sort of sense...

That is about how it works in real life, learning both the car and "real world physics" and how that car obeys the rules on a track on the limit. It's kinda where I've settled in with Shift. Focus on a car at a time (there are really only 5 or 6 cars in the game I'm interested in driving anyway, 4 of them have Porsche on them) learn how it handles and push it as much as I can.

In some ways that is more realistic that GT, where you can jump in any car and generally get it to the edge in a few laps (at least a good driver). Shift takes time to learn each car track, regardless if it is by design or poor physics, it works out like that...and that is pretty engaging to me.

 

[rexc]

There are three different physics engines.

One which is 50% better than GT5P, which takes place at 8/10ths.

One which is 80% better than GT5P, which takes place at 10/10ths.

One which is pure arcade, which takes place at 11/10ths.

It also helps to note that Tier 2, 3 and 4 cars receive stickier tires as standard compared to Tier 1 cars.

The best way to enjoy Shift is to drive clean and neat all the time. Resist the urge to "chuck" the car at a corner, which keeps the drift-fairies from waking up. Don't brake too late, as this will wake up the grip-fairies, too. Drive a proper line through every corner and get as few aggression points as possible, and the game will reward you by staying tricky.

Some good points Niky. There is definately some 'forgiveness' at the limit where you would normally expect to go skidding off the road.

As Biggles mentioned this is really apparent on the big sweeper at Road America, which you can take in one long eternal unrealistic power slide. I do notice though that if you try to take the sweeper right on the limits before you start to slide you are faster than by sliding.

So I'm also trying to concentrate on driving at 10/10ths and ignoring the fact the game will let me push it to 11/10ths if I wanted. I think thats where you best see what the physics of the game could have been.

Unfortunately without racinig your ghost its a little hard for me to prove categorically that driving at 10/10ths is always faster overall than driving at 11/10ths, although I suspect it might be.

 

[phil_2001]

**double post, sorry**

 

[phil_2001]

GT5 physics is more worked out, sometimes I think there is no comparison as to how detailed and precise GT physics is and one place to see this is licence tests, there's so much depth there that it comes to mind no other game can acheive that today.

What I strictly don't like about physics engine of both Race 07 and especially Shift is the bouncing cars which is unrealistic, and the other thing is the hovering of the cars above ground in replays. It is if there is no proper contact of the wheels to the road. GT5 is perfect in what it tries to deliver, it is extremely polished. Shift is not. Plus in real life not every car, not even sports car shakes the driver on the road like it shows in Shift. The shaking comes from stiff suspension. In Shift even an ordinary sports car shakes the driver, which is not realistic at all.

 

[Niels_at_home]

If you look at the physics files in Shift, you'll see a lot of 'ISI' there, so a lot of the physics engine is the same as GTR2 / rFactor / GTRevo etc. However, there looks to be a bit of a mix going on with a new / party changed tire model.

I also think, but am not sure, that since this is such a mix of things, some lines might not even be used anymore. The whole physics seem a bit of a rush job; lots of Ferrari Game (or what was it to be called?) references in there too.

Don't forget how hard it is to mod physics properly; especially when you don't know which lines are and aren't used, plus there is a new tire model that we don't know about!

 

[Nigo]

Shift handling is... well, intriging. Sure it's very easy to say that because it has unrealistic behaviours, it's not a sim - but let's not take shortcut, because all GT fail to be a sims using this definition

What I dislike about GT and Forza, is the way they made the handling too easy with the gamepad, and taking a corner could be reduced at pushing the stick to the limit without facing too much understeer. What makes Shift fun is the combination between the permissive handling and the permissive controls. I'd just wish the tire model to be more realistic - on PC I suppose there will be workarounds

But apart from that, the great graphics, sounds and cockpit view, I have to admit, the game is crap. The career more sucks, it has no splitscreen feature, the replays are useless, there are plenty of bugs... it's like they hired Windows 95 developers

There are three different physics engines.

One which is 50% better than GT5P, which takes place at 8/10ths.

One which is 80% better than GT5P, which takes place at 10/10ths.

One which is pure arcade, which takes place at 11/10ths.

you're telling about staying under the grip limit, right ? well, it's hard work LOL I'll try reducing the steer lock, see if a can drive neatly... and if it does improve my lap times

Are you sure that's how it works? I thought 0% was linear in this game (the devs recommend using 0% with a logitech wheel set to 360-450 degrees, or higher if you tune the car to have faster steering).

on 360 with the pad, sensitivity is linear at 100% (undrivable), logarithmic at 0%
on PC with a wheel, it should be the same

 

[Jay]

Anyone else notice that the game simulates a slipping clutch? Caught me off guard and I thought it was hilarious. Upgraded an MX-5 with a stage one turbo, without upgrading the clutch, and it was slipping like crazy. Upgraded to stage one clutch, no slipping...

That is just awesome, I really hope GT5 simulates clutch slip too (I doubt it).

 

[otago]

Played the demo, physics seems pretty weird for me.

Something is really wrong with steering and suspension, it feels like the car is bouncing in all directions at any speed, so even on straight there is no confidence and ability to steer precisely.

And at the same time spins often feel like self corrected.

 

[sejtur]

Played the demo, physics seems pretty weird for me.

Something is really wrong with steering and suspension, it feels like the car is bouncing in all directions at any speed, so even on straight there is no confidence and ability to steer precisely.

And at the same time spins often feel like self corrected.

Do not buy it, you will be better off without it.

 

[rexc]

Something is really wrong with steering and suspension, it feels like the car is bouncing in all directions at any speed, so even on straight there is no confidence and ability to steer precisely.

The lack of steering precision was something a number of people commented on intially, and which I felt was there too.

Now however I have no problem putting the car where I want and hitting the apexes. It's just getting used to the way the cars react with the track.

I'd give the demo a few more goes and see if you get comfortable with it. If you get to that point, go for the game. It's worth it for the Nordschleife alone, despite some shortcomings elsewhere.

 

[Imari]

The cars react quite strongly to weight transfer. If you try to steer while the car's swinging in the opposite direction it rightly makes it difficult for you. Once you find the cars natural rhythm it becomes much easier.

There are a lot of things in the game that pander to the arcade market, but once you play it for a while you find that it does reward proper driving techniques just as much as GT5P or FC.

 

[otago]

Do not buy it, you will be better off without it.

Why? The game has strong physics, driving is fun.

This bouncing and steering issues are the only problems in my opinions.

it does reward proper driving techniques just as much as GT5P or FC.

FC - Ferrari Challenge?

Shift is much better in physics

 

[Terronium-12]

Why? The game has strong physics, driving is fun.

This bouncing and steering issues are the only problems in my opinions.



FC - Ferrari Challenge?

Shift is much better in physics

Better than what? Ferrari Challenge?

Uhm, no.

 

[otago]

Better than what? Ferrari Challenge?

Uhm, no.

Can't see too much simulator in FC

 

[Terronium-12]

This is pretty bad my friend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUdjcH8UWMo

That's not Ferrari Challenge.

 

[MannyMoenjack]

No, Ferrari Challenge's blend of physics & FFB are as accurate as any I've seen. The problem was that they were too different from, and much harder to master than every other racing game/sim out there and people gave up on it before giving it a chance.

I thought it was bizzare the first few times I played it, but being a cheap a** who didn't want to see my $40 wasted kept at it until it dawned on me 💡 that "Hey, you've gotta actually drive this like a real car!" You know, slowing down to turn, don't hit the gas before the apex and all that real driving stuff that we do everyday.

Oh... I'm raving again... sorry.

 

[otago]

That's not Ferrari Challenge.

My fault. Some people claim FC use same engine as Ferrari VR, but there is no proof. They are two different developers

 

[myke6699]

GT5 physics is more worked out, sometimes I think there is no comparison as to how detailed and precise GT physics is and one place to see this is licence tests, there's so much depth there that it comes to mind no other game can acheive that today.

What I strictly don't like about physics engine of both Race 07 and especially Shift is the bouncing cars which is unrealistic, and the other thing is the hovering of the cars above ground in replays. It is if there is no proper contact of the wheels to the road. GT5 is perfect in what it tries to deliver, it is extremely polished. Shift is not. Plus in real life not every car, not even sports car shakes the driver on the road like it shows in Shift. The shaking comes from stiff suspension. In Shift even an ordinary sports car shakes the driver, which is not realistic at all.

Regarding the hovering cars in replays: I have yet to notice this in almost any of the tracks/cars in SHIFT (I bought this game since the release date). When it comes to the contact between the tires and the road, it's actually better than the soon to be release Forza 3. And despite both Forza 3 and SHIFT having tire deformation (in both physics and graphics) from what I've seen so far, SHIFT is better at rendering the effect. And because of the deformation, it's actually even more realistic looking than GT5P. The only deficiency in SHIFT's replay is the framerate (PS3 version) and the fact that you can't save it.

 

[Mad Matt]

Small aside: As a former MX5 owner who had a stage 1 turbo I didn't notice any clutch slipping.

So a nice idea but probably not that realistic.

Back on topic: Let's try not to slip into fights between FC and Shift, they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I've also noticed over a couple of threads that the game works dramatically differently with different wheels. Or at least that's what's being reported.

 

[Biggles]

FC feels odd at first, but with more practice & experience the physics are revealed as deeper than they seem at first.

Shift feels great at first, but with more practice & experience it becomes evident the physics are less deep than they seem at first. That's very disappointing for a real sim fan.

As Niky put it: Shift up to 80% performance is better than GT5P or FC, but at 100% performance (which is the performance you want if you're racing) it all falls apart.

Yes, Shift with a Fanatec GT3 RS wheel feels really impressive (up to the 80%) - much more so than with a G25 - much more precise, stronger & smoother FFB. It's particularly cool when you're driving one of the Porsches. 👍