The SHIFT physics thread

[Tetradic]

I think I finally experienced the problem people have been commenting on when you push a car near it's edge. The physics do seem to drop off and the game turns decidedly into an arcade game. I spent about 1000kms in a GT3 RSR last week and started playing around with some race with the AI set to "hard", that required me to push the car much further than I do simply hotlapping. As much as the GT3 RSR sticks like glue it can be tricky (like any car) the closer it gets to the edge of grip and what the car is capable of. It would slip/slide and be touchy right up to the point it was not. It felt like a fell off a cliff with the car. The faster I drove, the less I used my brake and the harder I chucked it into a corner the more the car railed around like a slot car. Not fun. I went back to a stock s2000 only to find the same thing. Again not fun.

I have to say this simply fact has almost completely ruined my interest in playing the game any longer, which is a shame given it has good points.

I agree totally with Niky/Biggles's statement "As Niky put it: Shift up to 80% performance is better than GT5P or FC, but at 100% performance (which is the performance you want if you're racing) it all falls apart." and that is why I'm shelving this title and will replay GT5P again and enjoy the wonders of GTPSP for the winter.

I'll see you guys online in GT5P...

 

[Biggles]

Don't go Tetradic!

The fact that the depth to the physics isn't there doesn't mean it's not fun & challenging to drive fast, just that it's not very realistic. What we need is some organized online racing, preferably in stock cars.

I'm still hoping that they will see fit to "update" the physics at some point ...

 

[Tetradic]

I'm going to hang onto the game just incase things get better (but I'm not holding my breath).

As far as stock online racing, I was always on the lookout for that but only ever met people with upgrading cars with all those silly body kits and works conversions.

All that being said, if I'm going to spend the time to hotlap and really push a car to the limit to eek out those extra .010s it's not going to be in NFS:S. GT5P is much better for that. Not to mention now that I've spent sometime in a 911 GT3 Rs/RSR....give me a NSX-R anyday.

Biggles - add me to your friends list (and anyone else) I'll come race in a handful of stock cars (Elise, Exige, MX-5, s2000 mostly) wherever one would wish.

 

[Stotty]

Tetradic.... how fast can you lap the Ring in a standard (un-modified and un-tuned) GT3RS by driving as you say above... can you run faster than a 7'26?

 

[Biggles]

OK. Let's try & add some friends interested in racing Shift - my limited experience (with a few old friends) with Shift online has been pretty good. But I'm not interested in going online with random opponents.

I won't be able to add frends or race online race online until later next week however, as I'm currently traveling.

 

[DGiant2000]

El Zissou created a thread for this but it sort of died out. Could be worth another go though, I'm definitely interested.

 

[Tetradic]

Tetradic.... how fast can you lap the Ring in a standard (un-modified and un-tuned) GT3RS by driving as you say above... can you run faster than a 7'26?

No, but I think I know what you are getting at. My best is in the 7'35 range in a stock GT3 RS, much off the pace of you and others I've seen here, but still well below the 7'40-7'42 of a real world car on the same track. It's more a matter of how the car feels on the limit. There seems to be a physics cliff one falls off of at that point, which is maybe a override in the game design to not let players get too frustrated, but regardless it is there. It's even more apparent on race cars (911 GT3 RSR, Audi R8 LMS). Regardless of this being right or wrong, real or unreal, it just doesn't feel right and is a real buzzkill when playing.

Maybe I'm just used to the GT series (which is probably correct) and I'm not comparing the two games directly (I've tried very hard to not do that and enjoy NFS:S for what it is) but this one issue is enough for me to not want to play it anymore. That and GTPSP being just too good (for what it is).

---

I'd be up for some online racing in stock vehicles with members of this board. Some good clean racing would be nice. That is something I've yet to experience anywhere in the game. Either against the AI or online.

Feel free to add me on PSN if you are interested in the above and we will figure out a time to meet in the coming weeks.

 

[myke6699]

I think I finally experienced the problem people have been commenting on when you push a car near it's edge. The physics do seem to drop off and the game turns decidedly into an arcade game. I spent about 1000kms in a GT3 RSR last week and started playing around with some race with the AI set to "hard", that required me to push the car much further than I do simply hotlapping. As much as the GT3 RSR sticks like glue it can be tricky (like any car) the closer it gets to the edge of grip and what the car is capable of. It would slip/slide and be touchy right up to the point it was not. It felt like a fell off a cliff with the car. The faster I drove, the less I used my brake and the harder I chucked it into a corner the more the car railed around like a slot car. Not fun. I went back to a stock s2000 only to find the same thing. Again not fun.

I have to say this simply fact has almost completely ruined my interest in playing the game any longer, which is a shame given it has good points.

I agree totally with Niky/Biggles's statement "As Niky put it: Shift up to 80% performance is better than GT5P or FC, but at 100% performance (which is the performance you want if you're racing) it all falls apart." and that is why I'm shelving this title and will replay GT5P again and enjoy the wonders of GTPSP for the winter.

I'll see you guys online in GT5P...

If you pay enough attention you'll find that when you are racing against AI (I've yet to do any online racing)- the physics change quite a bit. The more AI cars on the track, the more different you car will feel compare to if you were the only car on the track. I believe this is because the 400hz physics engine shares the same thread as the AI: so the more AI cars, the less resource is given to the physics: the FFB feels weaker, less detailed and the car handling itself becomes even more forgiving.

I don't know if Prologue does the same thing but it's perhaps one of the main reason why Turn 10 decides to stick with 7 AI cars (8 cars on track including yours). And I find that in SHIFT, if you were to run less than 11 cars, preferably 7-9, and on shorter, tighter tracks 2-3, it's probably best (it's also good for the framerate). Again, I don't know if this is the case witht the PC or the 360 version but on the PS3 version that I'm familiar with I'm quite sure it is what's happening.

And as to Prologue vs SHIFT's physics: there's no contest especially if you were using a wheel, that SHIFT feels much closer to reality especially at slower to medium speed. Just the other night after not touching Prologue for about three weeks I decide to try it out. I was surprise at how different the FFB feels from SHIFT and how inadequately almost any of the cars drive- even car like the Elise 111R which has always had a great tire/road feel in the game (to me, at least) just didn't elicit the same sentiment this time. Even at higher speed, the fact that you can feel the weight shift and even the tire slipping and most importantly, the tires themselves, again make SHIFT feels more realistic than Prologue which lacks a lot of of that FFB details.

In the past, after weeks of playing FC even GTR2 (which SHIFT is somewhat based on), I can still re-adjust quickly back to Prologue and still find the the latter quite enjoyable. But not with this game. No, it's not quite the perfect game nor does it have the perfect physics but I just hope that when Kazunori Yamauchi said that GT5 cars will drive more like a real car, it will end up a bit like SHIFT.

 

[Imari]

There are aspects of Shift's physics system that are somewhat unrealistic, but I find them to improve my racing experience rather than detract from it.

For example, as many people have noted in Shift pushing beyond the limit usually results in oversteering rather than the car snapping and spinning off. However, the fastest way around a corner is smoothly at 100% of the cars potential, not sliding at 110%. I find this great for learning and practising tracks, when I screw up it's immediately obvious to me either through the drift points I'm racking up or Shift's excellent force feedback. But instead of crashing and having to spend time getting back up to speed and back in the rhythm I can simply keep driving and try harder to keep it under control.

I'm aware that this feature is somewhat arcadey, but the game still strongly rewards proper driving techniques. I find learning new cars and tracks this way more enjoyable than in Prologue, where learning how fast you could push some of the Ferraris was quite time-consuming and frustrating.

 

[MannyMoenjack]

For example, as many people have noted in Shift pushing beyond the limit usually results in oversteering rather than the car snapping and spinning off. However, the fastest way around a corner is smoothly at 100% of the cars potential, not sliding at 110%. I find this great for learning and practising tracks, when I screw up it's immediately obvious to me either through the drift points I'm racking up or Shift's excellent force feedback. But instead of crashing and having to spend time getting back up to speed and back in the rhythm I can simply keep driving and try harder to keep it under control.

That's a really good point! 👍
I hadn't thought about it in quite that way before, but looking at my recent races where I've had the best times I'm sure you're right.

So there IS a method in this Shift physics madness!

 

[kjb]

I'd be up for some online racing in stock vehicles with members of this board. Some good clean racing would be nice. That is something I've yet to experience anywhere in the game. Either against the AI or online.

Feel free to add me on PSN if you are interested in the above and we will figure out a time to meet in the coming weeks.

I think I will add you. I'm not the greatest racer but I do enjoy good clean races.

 

[niky]

There are aspects of Shift's physics system that are somewhat unrealistic, but I find them to improve my racing experience rather than detract from it.

For example, as many people have noted in Shift pushing beyond the limit usually results in oversteering rather than the car snapping and spinning off. However, the fastest way around a corner is smoothly at 100% of the cars potential, not sliding at 110%. I find this great for learning and practising tracks, when I screw up it's immediately obvious to me either through the drift points I'm racking up or Shift's excellent force feedback. But instead of crashing and having to spend time getting back up to speed and back in the rhythm I can simply keep driving and try harder to keep it under control.

I'm aware that this feature is somewhat arcadey, but the game still strongly rewards proper driving techniques. I find learning new cars and tracks this way more enjoyable than in Prologue, where learning how fast you could push some of the Ferraris was quite time-consuming and frustrating.

Truth. I've had this conversation with a friend looking to buy a new console racer... and it also hit me...

The less aggression points you get... the better the driving!

It's still a problem with me. See... I'm a lazy driver. Even in GT, I do the occassional powerslide through a corner instead of threading the perfect line. From GT3 to GT4, I've enjoyed nothing more than driving around at 8-9/10ths for hours upon hours... just hotlapping my favorite tracks.

In NFS:S, the temptation to chuck it in with a "dab of oppo" is just too great... and I'm left wondering at the end of the slide whether I actually made it out all on my lonesome, or whether the game pulled my danglies out of the fire for me...

 

[Biggles]

Hold on just a minute!

The FFB & the general feel of the driving in Shift is very good - way better than Prologue & more realistic feeling than FC/SCC. But that doesn't change the fact that, in the final analysis the "grip assist" totally ruins the realism of the physics.

Yes, the aggression points for corner slides just reward bad driving, but I don't agree that driving more realistically & "in control" results in faster lap times. Take a look at the lap times Stotty & Silk are putting down in race cars for the Ring - they are way faster than RL times & they are obtained by flinging the cars around way more aggressively than realistic physics would allow.

Driving realistically in Shift does feel pretty good, but, as already discussed, this means driving at about 80% of what the game's physics actually allow. What ticks me off, is that Shift has given us the most realistic looking, sounding & feeling racing game yet, thereby making both GT5P & FC/SCC seem weak in comparison, & then ruined it by adding a gratuitous & unnecessary assist which undermines the whole game.

Shift's AI is certainly "interesting", but a little too much so, with cars often colliding & spinning off in a unrealistically reckless manner. To this point, I haven't noticed the game's physics changing with more AI cars on the track, but I've always felt that adding more AI doesn't really accomplish anything. What you want is a few cars that are actually competitive with you. Having a bunch more cars either way behind you, or way in front of you doesn't really contribute all that much. The only PS3 game I've come across that accomplishes this is F1CE (& to a lesser extent FC). Frankly, even Forza 1 (as I remember it) was far ahead of Prologue & FC in this respect.

 

[MannyMoenjack]

Yes, the aggression points for corner slides just reward bad driving, but I don't agree that driving more realistically & "in control" results in faster lap times. Take a look at the lap times Stotty & Silk are putting down in race cars for the Ring - they are way faster than RL times & they are obtained by flinging the cars around way more aggressively than realistic physics would allow.

I need to try to test this tomorrow.

I don't mind a "safety net" in the physics that allows for impossible slides or saving your bacon when you take a turn too hot etc., but I would expect that it would incur a time cost simply because of the extra distance the sliding car would travel plus the delay in regaining traction and getting back on the throttle etc.

From my experiences so far, whenever I've had to beat a difficult lap time I've had to drive smoothly and realistically. Frantically sliding through every turn (yes I have done that) always seemed to result in a slower lap.

However, I have wondered about the difference between the Shift lap times and real life. In addition to the lack of a rational fear of death thing that's been mentioned elsewhere, I've also wondered at the accuracy of the performance of the car models.

For the stock cars around the Nordschleife most of the Teir 1 & 2 cars are a good deal slower than their real life counterparts. While the Teir 3 & 4 cars are faster than the RL cars.

It seems to me it's likely that they made the really exciting cars (Teirs 3 & 4) a bit extra exciting (i.e., faster) while the Teir 1 & 2 cars are probably more accurate.

As I said I'll have to try to test this out tomorrow. (Cause it'll really irritate me if sloppy driving is rewarded with faster lap times!)

 

[ItsHim]

For the stock cars around the Nordschleife most of the Teir 1 & 2 cars are a good deal slower than their real life counterparts. While the Teir 3 & 4 cars are faster than the RL cars.

Isn't that the way it should be? If you exit a turn by 2 km/h short of what the actual optimum exit speed is, a high powered car will let you make up for the lost 1/10th of a second on the following straight by brute force to a certain extend.

Carry too little speed through the corner in a mid powered car, and the impact on the laptime should be far more noticeable.

Not to offend anyone who put a Nordschleife laptime in, mind you.

 

[MannyMoenjack]

Isn't that the way it should be? If you exit a turn by 2 km/h short of what the actual optimum exit speed is, a high powered car will let you make up for the lost 1/10th of a second on the following straight by brute force to a certain extend.

Carry too little speed through the corner in a mid powered car, and the impact on the laptime should be far more noticeable.

Not to offend anyone who put a Nordschleife laptime in, mind you.

You might be right about that. I'm honestly not sure.

But the disparity seems exaggerated to me. Some of the premium cars are beating their real life counterparts by nearly a minute! That seems too much to be attributed solely to forgiving physics.

 

[ItsHim]

But the disparity seems exaggerated to me.

It certainly is, because Shift's still a NFS title after all

On the other hand, I would feel much more comfortable with comparing RL laptimes to a video game on a considerably safe racetrack.

The Nordschleife is notorious for a good reason and I hate to think that any time in RL was set by actually pushing a car to the very limit.

If you overdo it on Silverstone, for the most part you'll end up in the gravel. On the Norschleife, you'll end up in a coffin.

 

[Imari]

You might be right about that. I'm honestly not sure.

But the disparity seems exaggerated to me. Some of the premium cars are beating their real life counterparts by nearly a minute! That seems too much to be attributed solely to forgiving physics.

I wouldn't contribute that too much to forgiving physics. In Shift I can thrash the Veyron mercilessly and crash it as many time as I like to learn exactly how fast to go.

In a real Veyron, the number of offtrack excursions allowed is exactly zero. No driver would even approach the limit in a car like that. The high probability for death is a factor, but I'm sure some drivers are undeterred by that. I think the bigger factor is the car's owners probably specify that under no conditions are the drivers to push to an extent they feel the car is unstable. Writing off a million+ dollar car is just totally not worth it. All it takes is for one bird to take a big crap on a corner and it's all over. (Exaggeration, but amusing image I thought)

I'd expect the same is true for pretty much all of tier 4 and most of tier 3, the thought of totalling the car and possibly the driver is not even slightly worth the potential for a lap record at the Nurburgring. Prestigious yes, but only within a relatively small circle of people.

Comparatively, in a Civic or similar I think most serious drivers would be reasonably comfortable thrashing the nuts off the thing for most of the lap. Hence the times being much closer to the theoretical limit.

Note: I'm not claiming that Shift's physics aren't exaggerated in places, I just don't think they have as big an effect on laptimes as is claimed. I'm certainly yet to find many places where the wild oversteer helps me go faster than actually driving properly.
One where I think it does is the Karusell, where I find it faster and safer to four wheel drift the high line than try and take the banking. But that's just me.

 

[DGiant2000]

I wouldn't contribute that too much to forgiving physics. In Shift I can thrash the Veyron mercilessly and crash it as many time as I like to learn exactly how fast to go.

In a real Veyron, the number of offtrack excursions allowed is exactly zero. No driver would even approach the limit in a car like that. The high probability for death is a factor, but I'm sure some drivers are undeterred by that. I think the bigger factor is the car's owners probably specify that under no conditions are the drivers to push to an extent they feel the car is unstable. Writing off a million+ dollar car is just totally not worth it. All it takes is for one bird to take a big crap on a corner and it's all over. (Exaggeration, but amusing image I thought)

I'd expect the same is true for pretty much all of tier 4 and most of tier 3, the thought of totalling the car and possibly the driver is not even slightly worth the potential for a lap record at the Nurburgring. Prestigious yes, but only within a relatively small circle of people.

Comparatively, in a Civic or similar I think most serious drivers would be reasonably comfortable thrashing the nuts off the thing for most of the lap. Hence the times being much closer to the theoretical limit.

Note: I'm not claiming that Shift's physics aren't exaggerated in places, I just don't think they have as big an effect on laptimes as is claimed. I'm certainly yet to find many places where the wild oversteer helps me go faster than actually driving properly.
One where I think it does is the Karusell, where I find it faster and safer to four wheel drift the high line than try and take the banking. But that's just me.

Couldn't have put it better myself Imari, hitting the barrier at 80mph in an S3 compared to 140mph in a CCX represents an incredible difference in terms of both physical and financial cost. You only have to look at the F1 lap record there for modern cars to realise they could theoretically go much faster but the financial and physical risks prevent them from ever doing so.

 

[Biggles]

While it may be true that driving in Shift in a powerful/expensive car confers a bigger advantage than with a slower/cheaper car, there's just no question that a big factor is the physics.

I guess the way to get more realistic times, with any car, is to drive with no crashes allowed ... ever. 10 laps of the Ring, no crashes, what's your best time? As soon as you crash the car (anything more than a minor scrape) you're eliminated. That would be more like RL.

 

[Imari]

While it may be true that driving in Shift in a powerful/expensive car confers a bigger advantage than with a slower/cheaper car, there's just no question that a big factor is the physics.

I guess the way to get more realistic times, with any car, is to drive with no crashes allowed ... ever. 10 laps of the Ring, no crashes, what's your best time? As soon as you crash the car (anything more than a minor scrape) you're eliminated. That would be more like RL.

Heh, start a new time trialling thread. Stock cars on 10 clean laps of the Nurburgring.....

Even I'm not that masochistic.

 

[Stotty]

Hold on just a minute!

Yes, the aggression points for corner slides just reward bad driving, but I don't agree that driving more realistically & "in control" results in faster lap times. Take a look at the lap times Stotty & Silk are putting down in race cars for the Ring - they are way faster than RL times & they are obtained by flinging the cars around way more aggressively than realistic physics would allow.

If you watch either of the 2 laps I've posted videos for (GT3RS and LF-A) I don't think you'll find I'm 'flinging the car around' at all... my style is to maximise corner exit speed by adopting as neutral an entry angle as possible (ie; use as little steering lock as possible). My laps have no deliberate sliding in them.

 

[ItsHim]

Even I'm not that masochistic.

Off topic: Over at fm.net there were a couple of guys who did 24hrs on the Ring. In realtime, full everything including damage.

But you're right Biggles, Shift's engine encourages to take a very relaxed approach to racing and doesn't really punish mistakes apart from the "laptime will not count" and "you'll be disqualified" message. Oh, and the heavy breathing which can be disturbing So one is forced to set one's own benchmark.

 

[MannyMoenjack]

While it may be true that driving in Shift in a powerful/expensive car confers a bigger advantage than with a slower/cheaper car, there's just no question that a big factor is the physics.

I guess the way to get more realistic times, with any car, is to drive with no crashes allowed ... ever. 10 laps of the Ring, no crashes, what's your best time? As soon as you crash the car (anything more than a minor scrape) you're eliminated. That would be more like RL.

That's the usual way I drive the ring. For the simple reason that I don't want to have wasted all that time!

Last night for instance I drove the e92 & e46 M3's and the Vantage on the ring. 4 Laps each car with no "OMG call the ambulance" type wrecks, only a number of off-track excursions and a hard brush with the barrier in the e46.

Checking on the Nordschleife Record Times website just now...

My e92 time was 8:02.600 .... real-life car got 8.05 minutes or 8 mins 3 secs.
My e46 time was 8:20.710... real-life car got 8.22 minutes or 8 mins 13.2 secs. (The 7:55 time on our board was apparently for a M3 CSL which is much faster than a garden variety M3. And someone recently just improved the RL M3 CSL record down to 7.50 mins!)

My v8 Vantage time was 8:00.610 ... real life car was 8.13 minutes or 8 mins 7.8 secs.

So what does all this mean... I have no idea! But maybe the combination of lack of fear + forgiving physics means more the higher you go up in the Shift Teirs. But maybe someone a bit sharper than I am can interpret it.

 

[Biggles]

If you watch either of the 2 laps I've posted videos for (GT3RS and LF-A) I don't think you'll find I'm 'flinging the car around' at all... my style is to maximise corner exit speed by adopting as neutral an entry angle as possible (ie; use as little steering lock as possible). My laps have no deliberate sliding in them.

I'm not casting asparagus about your lap times, Stotty, just saying that there's no way that times that fast accurately relate to RL lap times (I think my Exige time is also absurdly below the listed lap record time). So something's wrong somewhere.

However, some of the Tier 1 times seem quite close to RL times.

Actually what we should do is organize some online Ring races.

BTW: I think the crashing/damage model in Shift is brilliant. Mechanical damage is all very well, but in practice, any serious damage to your car puts you completely out of contention (unless it's a really long race with pit stops). I also believe that calculating the effects of mechanical damage puts an enormous strain on the game's processing power, thereby compromising other aspects of the game. So I'm actually pretty happy with the damage in Shift.

What I always hated in GT is the lack of any kind of realistic collision physics & the pathetic "BONK" made by your car. I think Shift's serious impact effects & "OOMPH!" are great. Having the car stall is also good - perhaps the greater the "damage" the longer before you can start up the car again. This, in itself, should be sufficient in online racing to ensure people drive with some care. My theory in TT racing is: if I stall the car with an impact, I'm done.

 

[raz_10]

So yesterday, I was doing one of the mix races on tier 2, the one with three races around "The Ring," with and Mazda MX-5.
At the starting grid, I am not sure If I
a) Burned my clutch (using manual tranny, with a pad)
b) Burned the 🤬 out of my tires
But the rest of that race my gears were not the same, it was taking a long time to shift and to pick up pace. I could not catch the other cars even though I was doing 120+mph. There was a low humming sound after each shift

I have not seen this before. Once I quit and restarted the race it was back to normal. I wish I could have review the replay to see if anything looked different after the launch.
Is it possible to burn your tires or possible the clutch.?!

 

[STORSKARV]

......(unless it's a really long race with pit stops)..................

Is it pit stop in NFS Shift?

 

[rexc]

I don't mind a "safety net" in the physics that allows for impossible slides or saving your bacon when you take a turn too hot etc., but I would expect that it would incur a time cost simply because of the extra distance the sliding car would travel plus the delay in regaining traction and getting back on the throttle etc.

From my experiences so far, whenever I've had to beat a difficult lap time I've had to drive smoothly and realistically. Frantically sliding through every turn (yes I have done that) always seemed to result in a slower lap.

If you watch either of the 2 laps I've posted videos for (GT3RS and LF-A) I don't think you'll find I'm 'flinging the car around' at all... my style is to maximise corner exit speed by adopting as neutral an entry angle as possible (ie; use as little steering lock as possible). My laps have no deliberate sliding in them.

Yep, a couple of old adages "Smooth is fast" and "If you’re going sideways you’re not going forwards"

I’m yet to be convinced those don’t hold true in Shift.

I’m ok with the physics being too forgiving when you get the car sideways as long as it costs you in time.

If the fastest way is to drive properly (ie on the edge of grip, and not over it), then Shift can still be seen to be a ‘drivers’ game, despite some physics shortcomings.

 

[Biggles]

Is it pit stop in NFS Shift?

No.

Yep, a couple of old adages "Smooth is fast" and "If you’re going sideways you’re not going forwards"

I’m yet to be convinced those don’t hold true in Shift.

I think the physics allow you to go forward when, based on your (excessive) speed, you should be going sideways, that's the problem - you don't have to slow down enough, & keeping the car under control at speed is too easy.

 

[Imari]

I think I see where this is going.

Yes, you can enter corners at a speed that would have you spin the car and into the wall in other simulation type games. Yes, the way Shift is setup will enable you to hold it in that situation where you realistically probably shouldn't be able to. This is part of the NFS style to appeal to a wider market.

However, the point I think people are making is that driving like this is still slower than driving "correctly". The Shift designers seem to have decided not to penalise cornering mistakes as heavily as reality, where small mistakes at speed have big consequences. But correct driving is faster than this assisted-non-crashing style. I'm susbtantially faster with a traditional slow-in, fast-out style than I am just power-sliding the corners.

A good player driving as you would in GT, FC or any number of other sims will always be quicker in Shift than Joe Burnout. Joe Burnout won't get as frustrated because he's not crashing every other corner, but he's not going to win either.

One more point, because the grip physics seem quite complex in Shift it is possible to power forward a little while sliding. It's minor, but I find that to be in line with how I'd imagine reality to work. Even after you've started sliding there still remains some traction to the road, it's just greatly reduced by the car sliding on what is essentially a layer of melted rubber. Spinning the wheels will still produce some forward power, it will just be greatly reduced from what you would receive were the wheels not sliding. This effect is particularly pronounced if you're only sliding a little, giving you the option to actually power yourself out of trouble.

I think that were the crash-assist not there, the normal mode of Shift would actually be excellent for drifting on the right tyres. I have no idea why they felt the need to include the abortion that is the drifting physics set.