The Six Axis - Opinion: Gran Turismo 5 Release

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I think it's interesting. Just read it :sly:

March 26th 2010. Woof, woof woof, who let the Gran Turismo 5 fanbois out? Oh it was me, sorry about that. So on Friday there was a little bit of a stir regarding my comments on the Gran Turismo 5 release, so I’d like to talk about this seriously for a moment from the point of view of both the developer and the publisher.

I am a Gran Turismo 5 fangirl. I pre-ordered it last summer. Driving games are my favourite genre and GT5P sits proudly on my shelf as the very first PS3 game I played at home. I’m really looking forward to Gran Turismo 5, although I’m now becoming afraid that it is going to be style, realism and feature-bloat over playability and addictiveness.

I won’t pretend to know I have any idea what is going on in the bowels of Sony or Polyphony Digital, but from past work experience I am pretty sure of at least two things: 1. They already know they made a mistake by not releasing sooner, and 2. Sony will be secretly relieved when this thing gets out into retail and it’s over and done with so they’re not bleeding away more money on it.

From the developer’s point of view

A project is never finished. It can always be refined more. New features and improvements can always be added. Perfectionism is paramount. Nobody wants to make a bad game. On my music gaming web site (www.totalmusicgaming.com), we are incrementally adding features and tweaking issues all the time, and it is very rewarding to see it become gradually better and better and more used.

The Gran Turismo 5 team want to make a perfect game and they will ultimately never be 100% satisfied with it, as is the case with all game studios worth their salt. If left to their own devices, development will go on forever.

From the publisher’s point of view

Analogising again to my web site, there comes a point where you have to stop developing and start marketing, otherwise you run out of money and don’t have any users. The web site is very, very far from perfect, there are years worth of extra features and goodies that could be added, I’m not happy with it and would have really wanted to push the envelope on a SingStar add-on a lot further before release – but it is feature-complete, and it’s not economically feasible to do it all before the product is released, and we have to see a return on investment or development cannot continue.

Up to a certain point, each man hour spent on development is worthwhile. Eventually a tipping point of diminishing returns is reached, where the potential market for the product is more or less maximized and additional work is simply a cost with little-to-no benefit. When a game is delayed for 6 months, not because it isn’t finished but because it is being padded with feature bloat, the publisher and gamers lose out in several ways. First the public become frustrated with the delay. Second the publisher loses money while it is shelling out for the development team to continue working when the number of copies sold isn’t likely to increase much as a result of additional features being added in. Thirdly the time spent on that could have been spent developing new games.

There comes a point where you just have to say, it’s good enough, push it out now. Steve Lycett commented on this in his recent TSA interview about Sega & Sonic All-Stars Racing:

“We’d love to include more, but then we’d never finish a game!”

This is exactly how I feel about development. If all publishers allowed perfectionist standards, there would be no games to play.

Some may argue that Polyphony Digital is an exception or that it’s important to let the game be developed until its potential is maximized. Of course, it’s important not to set the bar too low, but PD is really not an exception. I don’t think many people would argue that including 3D or Move support is necessary at this point, and that is a considerable time drain. Avatar: The Game was designed for 3D; did that make it a better game? Consider, what are the potential uses of the Move in GT5? A trade-off has to be reached, and in my opinion the appropriate trade-off has not been made for this game by a long stretch.

I am not suggesting for a moment that unfinished games should be released. If a game needs to be delayed to iron out bugs or finish the content, that is one thing. Polyphony Digital have already announced more than once that the game is essentially finished and that “we could release it now”. Gran Turismo 5 has been in development for over 5 years at this point and was meant to be one of the key early adopter titles to drive initial sales of PlayStation 3. Sony have clearly given up on this idea now and Gran Turismo 5 has likely become a monetary sink for them. That cannot possibly benefit us.

My opinion is that the developers at Polyphony Digital have lost sight of what is truly important, and lost their way. By trying to cram in every possible feature, they are neglecting the core of what makes a good game: the gameplay. If it is true that each car takes 1 month to model, then the modelling should have been simpler, or less cars should have been included. Is it necessary to include 1000 cars? There’s no doubt it’s cool – but would it be a worse game if there were 250 cars? Will you play 1000 races? Was Need For Speed Shift a worse game because of its more limited car selection and simpler graphics? If it was, then we are talking very small percentage points.

What is the target audience for Gran Turismo 5? Is it car enthusiasts, or is it gamers? Is it realism or is it fun? Of course it’s not a black-and-white argument and there is room to balance both sets of users’ needs, but I’m extremely concerned that these major issues are being sorely overlooked.

Gamers also need to have realistic expectations. The concept that the longer a game is in development, the better it will be, is false. In the same way there is a diminishing return on revenue with development time, so the quality of a game is also not proportional to the time it takes to develop. Spore is a classic example of this – a game with a 9-year development cycle. While some will argue Spore is great and others will say it is horrible, the point is, either way, it would be hard to argue it was worth 9 years of development. It’s also worth noting that Duke Nukem Forever was canceled after an 11-year development cycle due to lack of funding.

Almost everyone who is going to buy Gran Turismo 5 has probably made their purchasing decision already. In my opinion, it should be released now before the hype backfires, if it has not done so already. Game development is not a hobby, it’s a business – but Polyphony Digital seem to think otherwise, and that’s a dangerous game to play.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/03/29/opinion-gran-turismo-5-release/?key=home
 
It's pretty obvious to me, it's going to hit for Christmas shopper
Why release it any earlier?
So it can compete with all the recent block busters that just came out?
 
It's sad, yet not unexpected with the state of the gaming media, that every article - no matter how well they try to disguise it - about the development of GT5 always comes back to money.

Are these people not aware of the fact that once the assets are in place for GT5, PD will be re-using them for years come - probably across PlayStation 4, 5, and 6 - meaning that they won't be spending $60 million and 5 years re-modelling the same cars all over again?

We saw from the quality of the SLS night time in car shot how detailed the interiors are; even the tiny text on the panels are readable. PD are not going to have to remodel those assets for many years - if ever again, meaning they'll save money, but also profit heavily from future editions of GT (as if they won't from GT5 anyway). When someone gives an insightful, clued in analysis of GT5's development, let me know.

This is just another "waste of teh moneyz" tripe.
 
Doesn't really say anything beyond the obvious, adds nothing new, and the only thing that article was put out for was to promote her website.
 
I've always wondered about that statistic; it takes one month to model a car....If so, then 5 years (and one month now since the US release of GT4) is 70 months assuming a December release date. For 1000 cars, that would take 1,000 months, if only one person was working on the game, which they obviously don't. So I would estimate that they have about 15 developers who model cars (1,000/70). Mental ramblings there.

I liked the article though, some good points about diminishing returns. However I would argue to say that since there is such market dominance with the PS3 title (and given its WIDELY known previous delay history and no 'actual' release date has been officially given - imagine, what if KY never said they could release the game at any time 💡) and I believe the diminished returns is setup for this holiday's launch date. If that doesn't pan out, then I think there will me an insurmountable back lash of disappointed gamers.

Jerome
 
Doesn't really say anything beyond the obvious, adds nothing new, and the only thing that article was put out for was to promote her website.

Yeah, agreed. She said nothing that hasn't been said on this forum. Comparing the game to her website, developer and publisher wise, was a joke.
 
Seriously- realism would kill playability? DJ Katy needs to spin with a wheel instead of a controller. The rest of the article- nothing that hasn't been said before, the novelty is that it's being said by a fangirl who happens to think like the rest of the guys. I was hoping for a bit more empathy coming from a woman- you know, the whole pregnancy and the pain of childbirth should give her more insight but I was sorely disappointed.
 
She says what we all think and know...

The GT series lives from it´s fans and it will die without it´s fans... But PD (I think more it´s Sony´s fault) shows no interess to their fans... It´s not that hard to give their fans some infos or screenshots one time a month (not the same screenshots or same cars every month)... Nearly every info and screenshots we get the last months are from fans... Nothing official from PD...

Unfortunately the GT series will sell, no matter what PD/Sony did with their fans...
 
She says what we all think and know...

The GT series lives from it´s fans and it will die without it´s fans... But PD (I think more it´s Sony´s fault) shows no interess to their fans... It´s not that hard to give their fans some infos or screenshots one time a month (not the same screenshots or same cars every month)... Nearly every info and screenshots we get the last months are from fans... Nothing official from PD...

Unfortunately the GT series will sell, no matter what PD/Sony did with their fans...

Trust me PD and Sony care about the fans. However it would be a wrong move if they released it last year fall or March 2010.
First of all, last year was full of ps3 exclusives and like god of war 3 gt 5 was postponed.
The 1st quarter of this year was also packed with exclusives like MAG, Heavy Rain, Final Fantasy 13 and God of War 3.
The most likely release date of gt5 is in the 4th quarter of 2010 simply because of one game: Halo Reach. All and i mean ALL Bots are gonna buy it and that will help M$ to win this year's best game lineup. And whats a better response to that by Sony? Simply, a game that is going to sell just as much as Halo. While I don't think gt5 is gonna achieve that it is definitely Sony's secret weapon!!
 
Mhh I think GT5 is a more important game than God of war III... GOWIII is an awesome game for sure! But I think they should have to delayed it and brang GT5 before...
 
Trust me PD and Sony care about the fans. However it would be a wrong move if they released it last year fall or March 2010.
First of all, last year was full of ps3 exclusives and like god of war 3 gt 5 was postponed.
The 1st quarter of this year was also packed with exclusives like MAG, Heavy Rain, Final Fantasy 13 and God of War 3.
The most likely release date of gt5 is in the 4th quarter of 2010 simply because of one game: Halo Reach. All and i mean ALL Bots are gonna buy it and that will help M$ to win this year's best game lineup. And whats a better response to that by Sony? Simply, a game that is going to sell just as much as Halo. While I don't think gt5 is gonna achieve that it is definitely Sony's secret weapon!!
If that was the case, the whole halo thing, what is stopping them from releasing the game now? Fiscal year 2010 starts in a couple of days. Why not get a head start on MS and release it now? They could've done the same with FFXIII and GOW3. They both came out at the very end on 2009 fiscal year.
 
They could've done the same with FFXIII and GOW3. They both came out at the very end on 2009 fiscal year.

Actually there is no worldwide release for ff13 so it could be considered as both 2009 and 2010 game.

If that was the case, the whole halo thing, what is stopping them from releasing the game now?Why not get a head start on MS and release it now?.
1)I think Sony prefers direct competition
2)Most PS360 owners will have to choose between the exclusives
3)Their 3D TV and Move will have been launched by fall
4)Fall is close to game awards(like vga)
5)People will return back from their holidays
6)It seems that the 4rth quarter of a year is amazing for sales(Uncharted 2 came out that time, Little Big Planet,etc..)
 
VGA? You are one of the 3 people that watch that?
FFXIII came out fiscal year 2009 worldwide.
Uncharted and big planet would sell no matter when they released.
 
Trust me PD and Sony care about the fans. However it would be a wrong move if they released it last year fall or March 2010.
First of all, last year was full of ps3 exclusives and like god of war 3 gt 5 was postponed.
The 1st quarter of this year was also packed with exclusives like MAG, Heavy Rain, Final Fantasy 13 and God of War 3.
The most likely release date of gt5 is in the 4th quarter of 2010 simply because of one game: Halo Reach. All and i mean ALL Bots are gonna buy it and that will help M$ to win this year's best game lineup. And whats a better response to that by Sony? Simply, a game that is going to sell just as much as Halo. While I don't think gt5 is gonna achieve that it is definitely Sony's secret weapon!!
I disagree. Forgetting the logistics and reasons, they could easily have launched GT5 in March as planned, and it would have been just as successful for SONY, if not more so, than if it had launched later in the year. So what if Halo Reach is launching Q4...is everybody going to buy that instead of GT5? No, of course not.
 
I agree, they missed the march release... The hype was on it´s top! People were sick of waiting and everybody was ready for the game... They only has to started a bit promotion on january and boom... GT5 would be the best selling PS3 game ever! I guarantee!

This move and 3D thing sucks so much... who the hell will buy an 3D tv only for GT5?? that´s no reason! They can implement this sh.. 3D thing with an patch... Most people will wait 1 year or more till the 3D tv´s will get cheaper...

I won´t pay 2000-3000 bucks, only to play GT5 in 3D...
 
I agree, they missed the march release... The hype was on it´s top! People were sick of waiting and everybody was ready for the game... They only has to started a bit promotion on january and boom... GT5 would be the best selling PS3 game ever! I guarantee!

This move and 3D thing sucks so much... who the hell will buy an 3D tv only for GT5?? that´s no reason! They can implement this sh.. 3D thing with an patch... Most people will wait 1 year or more till the 3D tv´s will get cheaper...

I won´t pay 2000-3000 bucks, only to play GT5 in 3D...

We saw video of 3d GT5 a couple months ago. The delay isn't to implement 3d, that was done a long time ago.
 
Good points. Very interesting.

I wonder if game reviewers factor "development time" in final score of a game. Wonder what will happen to GT5 if they do.
 
I agree and disagree with some of the points raised in the article. In some respects I do feel as though PD take perfection too far and the length of time GT5 has been in development is becoming a joke. However when GT5 is finally released im hoping GT5 doesn't suffer from the usual problems that plague our games today. I shall explain more in the next paragraph.

These days im becoming completely fed up with purchasing a game only to find numerous bugs/glitches that require patching. Im also fed up with being ripped off and Forza 3 is a good example of both. Recently I spent 2000MS points on FM3 only to find the bugs/glitches remain in the game. I also ask myself why wasn't this DLC released on the disc because its pretty obvious some of this DLC was deliberately held back to make extra profit. Rather than releasing DLC Turn 10 should of fixed the problems. Going back to the glitches and on my Xbox 360 I have played PGR3, TDU, FM2, FM3 and yet all of these games have been spoilt because gamers have exploited glitches in the game making hotlapping a waste of time. Even GT5P suffered from this and you only have to watch the replays of Daytona road course!

What im hoping with GT5 is the length of development means the problems above don't occur. When I pay £40 for a game I want plenty of content and the game is bug/glitch free. Thankfully Kaz doesn't agree with this DLC tactic many developers use these days.

Going back to the release date and I reckon the reason for the delay is nothing to do with GT5 not being ready. My theory is the Sony 3DTVS were delayed. Think about it from Sonys perspective. Your a company that makes 3DTVS who also make a console that allows 3D gaming and you also have a game that is in 3D. Surely doesn't it make perfect business sense to release all 3 at the same time as this highlights the capablities of all 3 products. As I said in another thread if Sony launch GT5 at E3 whilst playing in 3D on a Sony 3DTV then MS will take a right smack in the face with the Xbox 360 looking inferior in many respects. This is why my theory is GT5 will be released around June/July as this coincides with the launch of the 3DTVS. Also E3 happens to be in June.
 
I have to whole-hearted disagree with The Six Axis comments.

Kazanouri is not a total perfectionist, we all know that past games have lacked in certain areas (Sound/Tire smoke/etc)..

But Kazanouri has a special talent of choosing the right balance of perfectionism.

The reason we are all here is due to the KY/PD's quality and judgement of what it takes to produce the best racing game.

I hate waiting, but I'm happy to wait for PD.
 
[UK] ANDYW;3810565
But Kazanouri has a special talent of choosing the right balance of perfectionism.
See, I disagree with that statement. Leaving out the most basic of elements, and putting up with very weak AI is not a sign that he is able to achieve the right balance of perfectionism. He's just a person, not some kind of genius god who can work miracles. The fact that we are waiting this long for the game shows he is struggling with priorities.

The reason we are all here is because we like racing games of this type, and don't really have many other options on PS3. Those who have an Xbox 360 can play Forza 3 if they want, but like others, I only have a PS3 and so will take whatever PD throw my way, because I have no choice. Well, apart from "to buy or not to buy", but I'm hardly not going to buy it just because it might lack skid marks or have relatively poor sound or whatever.
 
I disagree. Forgetting the logistics and reasons, they could easily have launched GT5 in March as planned, and it would have been just as successful for SONY, if not more so, than if it had launched later in the year.

The sales in the first week would have been different( because there would be other AAA titles) and thats about how you can tell if a game is successful or not. Sony has studied the release dates and they know better when its time to release a game than us...

So what if Halo Reach is launching Q4...is everybody going to buy that instead of GT5? No, of course not

Thats an opinion not based on facts. Most of the PS3 owners will propably
(according to the success of previous gt titles) buy GT5. Most of the XBOX 360 owners will propably (again, according to the success of previous Halo titles) buy Halo. But what will the owners of both consoles buy? Sony propably believes that most of them will buy gt5 thats why they are planning to release the game round that time
 
The truth as to wether a gamer will purchase halo or gt5 comes down to their favourite genre. Not what's the best game. You can't really compare across different genres.
 
The truth as to wether a gamer will purchase halo or gt5 comes down to their favourite genre. Not what's the best game. You can't really compare across different genres.

I never compared them. They are both exclusives and they are both system sellers.
 
The sales in the first week would have been different( because there would be other AAA titles) and thats about how you can tell if a game is successful or not. Sony has studied the release dates and they know better when its time to release a game than us...
Rubbish. Success of a game is not driven purely by the first week sales.

Thats an opinion not based on facts. Most of the PS3 owners will propably (according to the success of previous gt titles) buy GT5. Most of the XBOX 360 owners will propably (again, according to the success of previous Halo titles) buy Halo. But what will the owners of both consoles buy? Sony propably believes that most of them will buy gt5 thats why they are planning to release the game round that time
I said something to the effect of, "If Halo Reach and GT5 both released at the same time, would everybody go and buy Halo Reach instead of GT5?" The answer is no, and that is fact, not opinion. Even narrowing this down to people who own both consoles, I can guarantee you that if both release at the same time, at least one person will buy GT5. I can guarantee you this, and will pay you £10,000 if it turns out otherwise.

Besides, as already pointed out, you are comparing across genres, which is largely pointless. However, according to Wikipedia, cumulative global sales of Xbox 360 and PS3 at the end of 2009 were 39m and 33.5m respectively. Given that FPS games tend to be more popular, it's fair to say that if both did release at the same time, Halo Reach would probably have higher first week sales. Does that make it the better game? No. Is that all that matters? No.

Unfortunately for Halo, the high quality FPS genre is saturated, and it will not be long before another high quality FPS game comes out that people must have. Weekly sales of Halo will therefore peak rapidly, and slowly drop off as people move onto the next game. Things are very different for the racing genre, where games at the quality of Gran Turismo are few and far between. As such, ongoing sales are more consistent until basically the next installment comes out.

OK, this is generalising a lot, but the fact is, it doesn't matter when these games launch, or if they launch together. Both are, as already said, system sellers that will fly off the shelves when released as well as shift hardware. The fact that one may have higher first week sales than the other is, in the scheme of things, totally irrelevant and says nothing about the popularity of either console or genre.
 
Rubbish. Success of a game is not driven purely by the first week sales.

You obviously misunderstood what i was trying to say... Of coure it is NOT given PURELY by the first week of sales but its a very important factor

I said something to the effect of, "If Halo Reach and GT5 both released at the same time, would everybody go and buy Halo Reach instead of GT5?" The answer is no, and that is fact, not opinion. Even narrowing this down to people who own both consoles, I can guarantee you that if both release at the same time, at least one person will buy GT5. I can guarantee you this, and will pay you £10,000 if it turns out otherwise.

This time, I misunderstood. I didn't notice that "everybody" word

Besides, as already pointed out, you are comparing across genres, which is largely pointless. However, according to Wikipedia, cumulative global sales of Xbox 360 and PS3 at the end of 2009 were 39m and 33.5m respectively. Given that FPS games tend to be more popular, it's fair to say that if both did release at the same time, Halo Reach would probably have higher first week sales. Does that make it the better game? No. Is that all that matters? No.

1)I am only comparing the sales and not the quality
2) Wikipedia numbers are wrong
3)I never said that Halo is a better game

Unfortunately for Halo, the high quality FPS genre is saturated, and it will not be long before another high quality FPS game comes out that people must have. Weekly sales of Halo will therefore peak rapidly, and slowly drop off as people move onto the next game. Things are very different for the racing genre, where games at the quality of Gran Turismo are few and far between. As such, ongoing sales are more consistent until basically the next installment comes out.

OK, this is generalising a lot, but the fact is, it doesn't matter when these games launch, or if they launch together. Both are, as already said, system sellers that will fly off the shelves when released as well as shift hardware. The fact that one may have higher first week sales than the other is, in the scheme of things, totally irrelevant and says nothing about the popularity of either console or genre.

It matters when they are launched... Otherwise, the game wouldn't have postponed. Sony has searched it, they believe that a fall 2010 release date fits gt5. Nothing can change that because its not that simple.
 

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