The Sportsmanship Rating system needs a rework

[Granadier]

Here's a graph of my SR over the ~30 days since I started doing Sport Mode races. My main goal while racing is to prioritize clean driving over taking another position; which has helped me keep my SR at max the majority of my days racing. I'd hoped this would translate to some great, clean racing in most of my lobbies online. Boy was I wrong.

Why is this? In my opinion it's because the scale for SR doesn't line up with what it's supposed to represent. Since there is a range of 85-99 of SR that still counts as "S", there is an relatively huge range of drivers that can fit into that area. Drivers can punt other drivers off, dive bomb, push people wide, and brake check to their heart's content and they will still hold on to that "S" rank so long as they have a few relatively clean sectors in between. I've lost count of how many times a driver behind has decided to just punt me off the track while I'm defending instead of waiting for an opening because the 3-5s penalty doesn't impact them. They'll still be S rank.

The SR gains and loses are fine IMO. What should change is the scale. Rank S in Driver Rating is for the best of the best. Rank S for Sportsmanship should reflect that as well. Make S rank require 95+ or higher so we can hopefully have cleaner lobbies for the drivers that seek them.

/rant

 

[rono_thomas]

TBH not sure that would gain anything in lobby matching, reduce the pool reduce the lobby sizes.

 

[Darwock]

I think the grouping does go by a different scale - when I've dropped to low S rank I've had notably different match-ups to when I am high S rank.

There is a division within S rank, it's just not labeled for the players.

 

[fastone371]

View attachment 847890

Here's a graph of my SR over the ~30 days since I started doing Sport Mode races. My main goal while racing is to prioritize clean driving over taking another position; which has helped me keep my SR at max the majority of my days racing. I'd hoped this would translate to some great, clean racing in most of my lobbies online. Boy was I wrong.

Why is this? In my opinion it's because the scale for SR doesn't line up with what it's supposed to represent. Since there is a range of 85-99 of SR that still counts as "S", there is an relatively huge range of drivers that can fit into that area. Drivers can punt other drivers off, dive bomb, push people wide, and brake check to their heart's content and they will still hold on to that "S" rank so long as they have a few relatively clean sectors in between. I've lost count of how many times a driver behind has decided to just punt me off the track while I'm defending instead of waiting for an opening because the 3-5s penalty doesn't impact them. They'll still be S rank.

The SR gains and loses are fine IMO. What should change is the scale. Rank S in Driver Rating is for the best of the best. Rank S for Sportsmanship should reflect that as well. Make S rank require 95+ or higher so we can hopefully have cleaner lobbies for the drivers that seek them.

/rant

I think the real problem lies in the amount of participants in daily races. If they kept only S rated drivers together they would be racing with small car counts. Most of the time a typical daily has drivers rated from SR B to SR S

 

[Granadier]

I think the grouping does go by a different scale - when I've dropped to low S rank I've had notably different match-ups to when I am high S rank.

There is a division within S rank, it's just not labeled for the players.

This is part of my point. There is already a division under the hood around 94/95. They should just make the split visual to encourage good behavior.

I think the real problem lies in the amount of participants in daily races. If they kept only S rated drivers together they would be racing with small car counts. Most of the time a typical daily has drivers rated from SR B to SR S

IMO that would be a good thing. When repeatedly getting into lobbies with drivers you’ve raced against previously it encourages good sportsmanship through the fact that you’ll likely see them again.

 

[golfer07840]

When I've played other games where matchmaking was done online, i.e. Football, baseball, basketball, etc. It goes by skill ranking based on points, which I have always assumed for GTS, was what the DR was for.

Well, now we know it's based on SR, which IMO, doesn't really represent skill so much as luck. Why do I say luck? Because of the wacky penalty system, we can get a few SR downs just by being on the line and not allowing some dive bomber to pass you, even though they have room on the outside, but refuse to do it.

There just seems to be a lot of, shall we say, luck, involved with the SR. My SR was wrecked by a couple of races at Tokyo the past few weeks. Also didn't help that I was getting punted on Turn 1 at Maggliore (sp?) several times as well. I get punted, hit the wall, get an SR down (sometimes a 3 sec penalty too) and yet the person who hit me, gets zippo.

So I look at SR and say to myself "Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain!" because I think it's a bunch of hooey.

I think the real problem lies in the amount of participants in daily races. If they kept only S rated drivers together they would be racing with small car counts. Most of the time a typical daily has drivers rated from SR B to SR S

I actually don't have an issue if the grids were smaller, especially with the A and S DR guys. I mean, they are all just racing each other anyway. 9 out of 10 times, they never even see the D rated guys that are 8 spots behind them. So really, what's the difference?

 

[BaareCZ]

What I don't understand is that sometimes I'm put in a lobby with like 2 players who are my DR and then players of progressively lower DR with the last 5 being DR D. The points I can gain are greatly outweighed by the points I can lose if I get punted off (or spin or something) on the last lap and I finish let's say 15th. Is it because there are just not enough players of my level at the time of matching? Or is it to give the lower level players a chance to prove themselves and move up the ladder?

 

[WheelmanSteve]

TBH not sure that would gain anything in lobby matching, reduce the pool reduce the lobby sizes.

I'd rather be last in a pool of 5 clean racers than deal with the crap that happens now...

 

[Granadier]

I'd rather be last in a pool of 5 clean racers than deal with the crap that happens now...

Same. If it’s a clean race I honestly don’t care where I place

 

[Pigems]

There are two “S” lobbies during peak times, 99-90 get matched first and then 89-80 is the lower pool. Some of the lower pool is used to fill the top rooms when needed too. That’s why you sometimes end up in odd lobbies even if you’re rated SR S.

 

[NevilleNobody]

IMHO other than the penalty system needing some work, the SR just needs to be harder to earn and harder to fall. Seems too easy to get to S and too easy to get reset imho.

 

[O604]

SR should go to 100.

Something like 99SR + 3 blue races = 100SR.

It's only 1 point. It means nothing, just pride. But would force cleaner racing on average.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

View attachment 847890

Here's a graph of my SR over the ~30 days since I started doing Sport Mode races. My main goal while racing is to prioritize clean driving over taking another position; which has helped me keep my SR at max the majority of my days racing. I'd hoped this would translate to some great, clean racing in most of my lobbies online. Boy was I wrong.

Why is this? In my opinion it's because the scale for SR doesn't line up with what it's supposed to represent. Since there is a range of 85-99 of SR that still counts as "S", there is an relatively huge range of drivers that can fit into that area. Drivers can punt other drivers off, dive bomb, push people wide, and brake check to their heart's content and they will still hold on to that "S" rank so long as they have a few relatively clean sectors in between. I've lost count of how many times a driver behind has decided to just punt me off the track while I'm defending instead of waiting for an opening because the 3-5s penalty doesn't impact them. They'll still be S rank.

The SR gains and loses are fine IMO. What should change is the scale. Rank S in Driver Rating is for the best of the best. Rank S for Sportsmanship should reflect that as well. Make S rank require 95+ or higher so we can hopefully have cleaner lobbies for the drivers that seek them.

/rant

You might want to try racing in lower SR now and then. The races are generally cleaner there... The problem with SR.S is that, since it's as high as you can go, people will use the extra SR points in that race to make risky overconfident moves. As you said, you can afford a couple SR Downs and penalties when you're at 99 SR. The only risk is getting put in an easier grid line up, you won't get reset until you go all the way down to SR.C

The SR gains and losses are not fine. You can gain 50+ SR in one race in SR.E, or still 20 SR on average in one race C above SR.50. (Below the SR gains get boosted to a ridiculous 3x at SR.E) To compensate, the SR you can lose from a couple incorrect penalties can drop you to SR.B in one daily A or B race! It's minus 10+ SR per time penalty from a collision. Getting tapped from behind twice in a daily A can already drop your SR.

The dirtiest players in GTS use the SR system to their full advantage. Driving dirty either gets you victories due to a faulty penalty system or easier races. It's a win-win situation.


Since PD seems to have given up on improving fault detection for penalties, the only way forward is to overhaul the SR system completely. Change SR to a safety ranking calculated on the number of incidents you are involved in over time. Any time you go outside track limits, bump a wall, spin out, come in contact with another car counts against you. Add it all up over the last 10 hours of your driving time in sport mode, compare with everyone else to determine your safety ranking and use that for matchmaking. No need for letters or arbitrary 80 to 89 and 90 to 99 rooms. Take all entries with the same DR and split the rooms based on safety ranking.

To avoid getting too big of a mix in safety ranking in the same room you could add a cut off like you have now with SR letters. Only let the top 20% of safety rankings in the top room, which means adding lower DR. It will need some fine tuning, yet it's a lot more stable base to build on than the highly unstable 1-99 scale we have now.

Also deliberate punts should be ghosted like they are in SR.C and lower. No idea why PD allows people to punt cars off at 100kph speed difference in SR.S, then sometimes even give the victim a penalty


One more thing, get rid of DR resets. It only benefits dirty win at all cost drivers to get easier races. DR resets punish those lower DR drivers that try to drive clean by mixing the bad apples in with them. Let the fast dirty drivers annoy each other instead of hiding in a sea of DR.B drivers.

 

[Granadier]

You might want to try racing in lower SR now and then. The races are generally cleaner there... The problem with SR.S is that, since it's as high as you can go, people will use the extra SR points in that race to make risky overconfident moves. As you said, you can afford a couple SR Downs and penalties when you're at 99 SR. The only risk is getting put in an easier grid line up, you won't get reset until you go all the way down to SR.C

The SR gains and losses are not fine. You can gain 50+ SR in one race in SR.E, or still 20 SR on average in one race C above SR.50. (Below the SR gains get boosted to a ridiculous 3x at SR.E) To compensate, the SR you can lose from a couple incorrect penalties can drop you to SR.B in one daily A or B race! It's minus 10+ SR per time penalty from a collision. Getting tapped from behind twice in a daily A can already drop your SR.

The dirtiest players in GTS use the SR system to their full advantage. Driving dirty either gets you victories due to a faulty penalty system or easier races. It's a win-win situation.


Since PD seems to have given up on improving fault detection for penalties, the only way forward is to overhaul the SR system completely. Change SR to a safety ranking calculated on the number of incidents you are involved in over time. Any time you go outside track limits, bump a wall, spin out, come in contact with another car counts against you. Add it all up over the last 10 hours of your driving time in sport mode, compare with everyone else to determine your safety ranking and use that for matchmaking. No need for letters or arbitrary 80 to 89 and 90 to 99 rooms. Take all entries with the same DR and split the rooms based on safety ranking.

To avoid getting too big of a mix in safety ranking in the same room you could add a cut off like you have now with SR letters. Only let the top 20% of safety rankings in the top room, which means adding lower DR. It will need some fine tuning, yet it's a lot more stable base to build on than the highly unstable 1-99 scale we have now.

Also deliberate punts should be ghosted like they are in SR.C and lower. No idea why PD allows people to punt cars off at 100kph speed difference in SR.S, then sometimes even give the victim a penalty


One more thing, get rid of DR resets. It only benefits dirty win at all cost drivers to get easier races. DR resets punish those lower DR drivers that try to drive clean by mixing the bad apples in with them. Let the fast dirty drivers annoy each other instead of hiding in a sea of DR.B drivers.

PD, hire this guy. Or at least take the ideas here. Really good points all around.

 

[twitcher]

Something that just occurred to me, that I’m sure others have thought of, but I don’t see mentioned here...

Which days of the week you play on will have a pretty significant impact on your DR. Not so much with SR, but definitely DR.

Just as an example, someone who plays exclusively on Monday and Tuesday will have a much easier time of increasing their DR compared to someone who plays exclusively on Saturday and Sunday.

I don’t know exactly what time the servers reset, but if you could regularly log on right after the reset, pop in a quick quali time, and then jump in the races, you have a much much higher chance of start on pole and getting an easy win than if you wait until later in the week to do any sport mode races.


At the end of the day, I think we have to remember that this entire GT Sport project is basically one huge Beta test of online match making in the racing genre. No one has done this on this scale before in a casual racing game as popular as GT. PD is making things up and figuring it out as they go. Honestly id have no problem with that, if only PD had open communication channels for the testers (us) to express our concerns, and in turn, PD would acknowledge the concerns being expressed.

Like, at this point in the GT franchise, I’m beyond flabbergasted that there is no official GT forum, or that PD hasn’t officially partnered with GTP, or at least have a bloody Reddit forum where someone from PD communicates and interacts with people. It’s 2019, PD’s customer interaction is a joke...especially when we’re the ones doing the actual leg work to test out a system that they want to strut in front of the FIA as being the greatest thing since sliced bread. WE want to see virtual racing become a legit thing, and THEY continuously make it as difficult as possible for us to help improve the system that is, at the end of the day, ultimately for us.

Has anyone ever seen Kudos stats for a PD employee?? Has anyone ever seen a PD employee in a lobby, or a sport mode race? Is anyone from PD actually decent at this game at all??

I also play Apex Legends....a game that is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! and I’ve seen that game receive more well thought out balance changes in the roughly 6 months that game has been out, than I can remember seeing in the entire online history of Gran Turismo going back to GT5.

 

[fastone371]

You might want to try racing in lower SR now and then. The races are generally cleaner there... The problem with SR.S is that, since it's as high as you can go, people will use the extra SR points in that race to make risky overconfident moves. As you said, you can afford a couple SR Downs and penalties when you're at 99 SR. The only risk is getting put in an easier grid line up, you won't get reset until you go all the way down to SR.C

The SR gains and losses are not fine. You can gain 50+ SR in one race in SR.E, or still 20 SR on average in one race C above SR.50. (Below the SR gains get boosted to a ridiculous 3x at SR.E) To compensate, the SR you can lose from a couple incorrect penalties can drop you to SR.B in one daily A or B race! It's minus 10+ SR per time penalty from a collision. Getting tapped from behind twice in a daily A can already drop your SR.

The dirtiest players in GTS use the SR system to their full advantage. Driving dirty either gets you victories due to a faulty penalty system or easier races. It's a win-win situation.


Since PD seems to have given up on improving fault detection for penalties, the only way forward is to overhaul the SR system completely. Change SR to a safety ranking calculated on the number of incidents you are involved in over time. Any time you go outside track limits, bump a wall, spin out, come in contact with another car counts against you. Add it all up over the last 10 hours of your driving time in sport mode, compare with everyone else to determine your safety ranking and use that for matchmaking. No need for letters or arbitrary 80 to 89 and 90 to 99 rooms. Take all entries with the same DR and split the rooms based on safety ranking.

To avoid getting too big of a mix in safety ranking in the same room you could add a cut off like you have now with SR letters. Only let the top 20% of safety rankings in the top room, which means adding lower DR. It will need some fine tuning, yet it's a lot more stable base to build on than the highly unstable 1-99 scale we have now.

Also deliberate punts should be ghosted like they are in SR.C and lower. No idea why PD allows people to punt cars off at 100kph speed difference in SR.S, then sometimes even give the victim a penalty


One more thing, get rid of DR resets. It only benefits dirty win at all cost drivers to get easier races. DR resets punish those lower DR drivers that try to drive clean by mixing the bad apples in with them. Let the fast dirty drivers annoy each other instead of hiding in a sea of DR.B drivers.

Yeah, what he said^^^

 

[azrilnazli]

The only way to get rid of this, just join private league with dedicated marshals and stewards.

GTS population == arcade gamers
99.8% on Controllers
0.2% on Wheels

 

[BaareCZ]

Yeah, I agree. They should make SR S way harder to achieve and way easier to lose. But before even attempting to do that, they need to fix that laughable excuse for a penalty system we have now. And that would basically mean for them to start over from scratch and that is way too much work. So I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Akwaaba]

I wrote something like what has been proposed here in another thread, here

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I also play Apex Legends....a game that is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! and I’ve seen that game receive more well thought out balance changes in the roughly 6 months that game has been out, than I can remember seeing in the entire online history of Gran Turismo going back to GT5.

PD is an older company that sort of stumbled into this "games as a service" model of game design. From the game's initial release PD's DLC strategy has essentially been just a game of catch up, trying to fill up the title with content before it's retail price point dropped. Since then, they've noticed that user engagement goes through the roof every time they drop a free DLC pack, which is exactly how you grow and nurture a long term player base... ie, a game as a service. For awhile now the DLC content has been intelligently spaced out to continue driving user engagement each month.

So it's really no surprise to me that their community relations are decades behind the industry standard.

 

[sundaydriving]

Another quality ****post (from me).

Drei vier grenadier....



Gute nacht.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I think the real problem lies in the amount of participants in daily races. If they kept only S rated drivers together they would be racing with small car counts. Most of the time a typical daily has drivers rated from SR B to SR S

Here in EMEA there are rarely more than one SR class in a dailies race. All S, then maybe two DR B, the rest C.

 

[fastone371]

Here in EMEA there are rarely more than one SR class in a dailies race. All S, then maybe two DR B, the rest C.

We are usually lucky to have 6 of 12 drivers SR S in our lobbies

 

[Haitauer]

You might want to try racing in lower SR now and then. The races are generally cleaner there... The problem with SR.S is that, since it's as high as you can go, people will use the extra SR points in that race to make risky overconfident moves.

This is very true. You can find the cleanest races from high sr B and high sr A - people trying to regain the SR rank they just lost.

Let the fast dirty drivers annoy each other instead of hiding in a sea of DR.B drivers.

I have been saying this from beginning - there shoud be a possibility for DR S / SR E drivers to race each other - just dont mix these guys with others..

Just as an example, someone who plays exclusively on Monday and Tuesday will have a much easier time of increasing their DR compared to someone who plays exclusively on Saturday and Sunday.

That works to a point. But when you get closer or to DR A those times are very hard to gain DR. Being in lobbies with very few drivers above your DR makes it impossible to beat drivers with higher DR than you and that leads to you not having much to win/gain but everything to loose if you mess up the race and finnish behind lower DR..

Ps. Hitting a wall shouldnt affect your SR... it has nothing to do with sportmanship if one loses control..